The Armour Archive

Alrighty, here we go again… yet another CA thread, but wait this one will be different!
Yah right!

First, while I do support CA I really do understand the dislike some have and the reasons behind that dislike.

Ok here’s what I’m a-thinking…most here know my persona is from the Heroic Age (60CE Briton Iceni) so in keeping with my persona I want to play with…

Slings!

Ok, ok, I know their not allowed (for now) but hear me out for a moment…
The last SCA ‘sling’ I know of was, in effect, a tennis ball with a cord run through it and knotted on either side. The user would grasp the cord, swing the ball, and release the missile cord and all at their target… HUGE tangling/tripping hazard.

My thoughts… why not just use a sling??? simple… a sling is a very basic tool two cords and a ‘pouch’. It’s the ammo that needs to be safe. I propose using the rules in place for catapults and crossbow tennis balls but with a different base. A Racquet or Hand-ball, these hollow balls are 2â€

Slings were being used in Meridies back in 1983-1984. Both corded slings and staff slings. The standard slings were not impressively effective. The staff sling I saw worked a little better.

I left the kingdom shortly after that and I don't know what became of them...

Kevin O'Shaughnessy

I personally do not want anything on the field that does not hit with authority and leaves no doubt you are dead. So my vote is no.

Uric

Blackoak wrote:I personally do not want anything on the field that does not hit with authority and leaves no doubt you are dead. So my vote is no.

Uric

What he said.

Add to that: Getting 'killed out' by an arrow is one thing. Getting 'Killed out' by a rock, while I am in armor? I just don't think so.

So the armour we are representing is a norman conical with full mail correct?
If I let you throw a real rock at me would it kill me?

Hmmmmmm.......

Palymar wrote:

Blackoak wrote:I personally do not want anything on the field that does not hit with authority and leaves no doubt you are dead. So my vote is no.

Uric

What he said.

Add to that: Getting 'killed out' by an arrow is one thing. Getting 'Killed out' by a rock, while I am in armor? I just don't think so.

Rome considered slingers more valuable and effective than archers. Almond shaped lead sling bullets seem to have been pretty effective. I recall effective ranges out to 400 yards.

Slings can be damnably effective weapons. They require more skill/dexterity/training than bows. It seems to me that there is a pretty clear progression in terms of weaponry, especially missile weaponry. The easier to use form replaces the prior, more difficult to use form - even at stages when it is less effective as a weapon.

Æiric - Contact the KEM (Count Alaric) with your proposal. Offer to provide him with weapon and ammo to check out.

And if the "sling stone" doesn't hit hard enough, why would you take it? You don't have to take anything else that doesn't hit with authority.



.

What Dilan, like an arrow??

Uric

sounds like a fun weapon: especially with a higher rate of fire and the ability (if allowed) to "shotgun it" ie load more ammo at once
but inaccurate against single targets... easier and cheaper ammo too

Well, the rules do say that only the fighter getting SHOT can say if it was good or not (At least in the Midrealm).

Archers can't call them, and the marshalls aren't supposed to.

Blackoak wrote:What Dilan, like an arrow??

Uric

I've never heard them being used in that way (the multiple load part). And I don't think you'll find the rate of fire that much higher. AND it'll be less accurate, at least until you practice a while.

lordeduffy wrote:sounds like a fun weapon: especially with a higher rate of fire and the ability (if allowed) to "shotgun it" ie load more ammo at once
but inaccurate against single targets... easier and cheaper ammo too

The slingers I observed long, long ago ended up killing more of their own men (hitting them in the back) than the enemy.

I also used my polearm once to hit the "sling stone" (a tennis ball) back into the enemy formation in a bridge battle. Nailed someone square in the faceplate! He called it and walked off the bridge wondering where the hell the slinger on our side was hiding. I bought him beer that evening and we laughed about it. Yeah, I know...but it *was* funny at the time...

Kevin O'Shaughnessy (this was waaaay back when I was Sekido Kuhato Daikudzu, a nineteen year old Japanese persona)

Dilan wrote:Æiric - Contact the KEM (Count Alaric) with your proposal. Offer to provide him with weapon and ammo to check out.

Cool! I was planning on going through my barony’s knights martial first...
But if you suggest going straight to the KEM, I’ll take that advice.

Did you know that there are some finds where the led sling shot was found lodged in shattered ribs and skulls... ouch!

Accuracy is the big thing...without practice you will NOT be very effective...

I've gotten where using a stone and sling bare handed I can hit within an area about 5' wide consistently.

Shot-gunning (multiple loads) will NOT work as the sling pouch is designed of a single shot any more would detract from flight of the others...like trying to shoot 2 arrows from a single bow at once... the mechanics get screwed up.

I believe with the mechanical advantage the sling offers I can get a good 'thwack' without being excessive or dangerous.

Greetings,
I just had to join the forums to chime in on the CA subject concerning staff slings. During the time period of 1983-1985, Meridies did use staff slings or at least had them on the books. I was at Troy State University (Shire of Falling Star now long gone from the Knowne World) and we experimented with them. Having to pry a duct taped slit tennis ball out of a chainlink fence was fun, but somewhat distrubing when you realized that the staff slinger was about 30 feet from the fence when he threw the "rock". The staff slinger use a modified Jaiha lia type of move(I cannot spell that sport's name to save me -forgive me)- over the head release and straight at the target. The trajectory was flat at about 8 feet off the ground and dropped a few feet during flight and hit with authority into the fence. I was not worried with stepping on the "rock" since they was a slit in it and the air would leave the ball when you stepped on it. What did worry me was the amount of force on such a small area. We did use them in combat once if I remember, been so long I can't remember the results of the hits. The problem was by the time the slinger reloaded the battle was most times right in his face and he had to run or yield.
Just had to chime in and remember some good days in college.

Edward of Yarborough

Kevin O'Shaughnessy wrote:The slingers I observed long, long ago ended up killing more of their own men (hitting them in the back) than the enemy.

Hense the need for practice, practice, practice!

I also used my polearm once to hit the "sling stone" (a tennis ball) back into the enemy formation in a bridge battle. Nailed someone square in the faceplate! He called it and walked off the bridge wondering where the hell the slinger on our side was hiding. I bought him beer that evening and we laughed about it. Yeah, I know...but it *was* funny at the time...

Kevin O'Shaughnessy (this was waaaay back when I was Sekido Kuhato Daikudzu, a nineteen year old Japanese persona)

I’d have loved to have seen that! LOL
See with the ammo I’m proposing the ‘stone’ is heaver than the very light tennis balls… they travel faster and are slightly smaller. I believe they will be harder to block with a weapon, shields on the other hand will block them just fine…so long at the fighter is paying attention to their surroundings.

Dilan wrote:I've never heard them being used in that way (the multiple load part). And I don't think you'll find the rate of fire that much higher. AND it'll be less accurate, at least until you practice a while.

lordeduffy wrote:sounds like a fun weapon: especially with a higher rate of fire and the ability (if allowed) to "shotgun it" ie load more ammo at once
but inaccurate against single targets... easier and cheaper ammo too

I'll be impressed by any slinger who can beat the rate of fire of a competent archer with a handbow. Crossbows, reasonably.. handbows, unlikely.

And I would expect a rule prohibiting "shotgunning", I think it's an unrealistic option. Nothing in my investigation of sling usage has ever suggested multi-shot loads.

Soooo........ If I were in a scenario that had slings, I could pick up "glean" the "rock" and throw it and kill someone?

Or would i have to be authorized in rock throwing?

Alaric will probably point you to the Deputy for Experimental Weaponry.

That used to be Omerad, but he has another job at the moment.

Æiric Ørvender wrote:

Dilan wrote:Æiric - Contact the KEM (Count Alaric) with your proposal. Offer to provide him with weapon and ammo to check out.

Cool! I was planning on going through my barony’s knights martial first...
But if you suggest going straight to the KEM, I’ll take that advice.

Did you know that there are some finds where the led sling shot was found lodged in shattered ribs and skulls... ouch!

Accuracy is the big thing...without practice you will NOT be very effective...

I've gotten where using a stone and sling bare handed I can hit within an area about 5' wide consistently.

Shot-gunning (multiple loads) will NOT work as the sling pouch is designed of a single shot any more would detract from flight of the others...like trying to shoot 2 arrows from a single bow at once... the mechanics get screwed up.

I believe with the mechanical advantage the sling offers I can get a good 'thwack' without being excessive or dangerous.

Sean, I could see no reason why you could not glean a rock if it was on the ground. We are allowed to throw back other thrown weapons, so I don't see why you couldn't.

Hell we could all just carry a few rocks out and just throw them. Why bother with a sling.

Uric

Blackoak wrote:Sean, I could see no reason why you could not glean a rock if it was on the ground. We are allowed to throw back other thrown weapons, so I don't see why you couldn't.

Hell we could all just carry a few rocks out and just throw them. Why bother with a sling.

Uric

NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Ok, that was probably an overreaction, but still, that's only one step away from it only counting if you yell "fireball" when you do it. And besides, we all know it would end with Joe High School Pitcher flinging 70mph tennis balls with accuracy and a rate of fire 5x that of a crossbowman.

I know they represent something that had a place on a real battlefield, but please please please keep them out of my game.

sean of the chipendales wrote:Soooo........ If I were in a scenario that had slings, I could pick up "glean" the "rock" and throw it and kill someone?

Or would i have to be authorized in rock throwing?

You wouldn't have to authorize in rock throwing, you would just have to take the Throwing Feat.

Blackoak wrote:Sean, I could see no reason why you could not glean a rock if it was on the ground. We are allowed to throw back other thrown weapons, so I don't see why you couldn't.

Hell we could all just carry a few rocks out and just throw them. Why bother with a sling.

Uric

If you can throw a rock as hard and fast with your hand as a competent slinger can with a sling, then sure. But it's exactly equivalent to asking why we bother with swords, or spears, or...

We could just punch each other, eh ?

several years ago a guy in our household took a "chuckit" to Pennsic . Got the okay to use it during battles where thrown weapons were allowed. Wailed the bejeebus outta the other side. Got a bunch of complaints about it and forgot about it ever again.
A tennis ball out of one of these things is devastating!!!!! There was never a doubt about getting hit. However during the course of the battle the marshals stated that only face shots from this should be counted...

Lucius Marius Scaevola wrote:

Blackoak wrote:Sean, I could see no reason why you could not glean a rock if it was on the ground. We are allowed to throw back other thrown weapons, so I don't see why you couldn't.

Hell we could all just carry a few rocks out and just throw them. Why bother with a sling.

Uric

NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Ok, that was probably an overreaction, but still, that's only one step away from it only counting if you yell "fireball" when you do it. And besides, we all know it would end with Joe High School Pitcher flinging 70mph tennis balls with accuracy and a rate of fire 5x that of a crossbowman.

I know they represent something that had a place on a real battlefield, but please please please keep them out of my game.

Leaving aside the absurdity of just throwing rocks at one another (despite big rocks being used in sieges exactly that way...)

Why do you want to prohibit slings ? Real question. What do you have against them ? And no, they are not going to lead to yelling fireball - ok - someone would just to make me a liar - but they're not going to lead to rules provisions for "spellcasting".

While not appropriate for the entire SCA period, we deal with that aspect of things every day in just about every aspect of the Society.

And of course, raising another old topic, we could also come up with safe simulators for period handgonnes

Part of me would actually enjoy taking part in a missile weapons only battle, with the full spectrum from javelins and axes through slings and bows to handgonnes. I think it could be some pretty good fun.

I have fought sling back in Meridies during the '80s. Duct taped tennis balls with Xs cut into them. My observations:

1. It won't get called. It is a tennis ball and won't hit hard enough to get noticed. Unless you want to be the dancing pansy calling "I keeled you I keeled you!" from across the field, get used to seeing them hit and fall unheeded.
2. It's tennis balls, not stones. They are bigger and take up a lot of room if you are going to carry more than one or two. Even 4 or 5 will be an ungainly bag o' balls and will suck to carry around.
3. Most will give up practice long before achieving the accuracy necessary to be effective... and just lobbing tennis balls into the enemy ranks begats item #1.
4. Grasping and properly utilizing a sling whilst wearing SCA legal hand protection is an excercise in futility, but likely to get you at least $10,000 on a certain TV video show if captured on film.
5. The end of the sling will easily fit into an eyeslot when released... even your own. (ouch!)


Overall, I found it detracted from my fun, so it eventually went away. YMMV, and I wish you luck

The last part of my post was dripping with sarcasm, I just couldn't pick an emotion button that displayed what I was feeling.

While I support CA, overall I think it takes away what many of us are after. I don't think I would ever call a tennis ball, and you would have to have an absurd rule to keep people from throwing balls at each other for no other reason that it will look like shit and be miles away from portraying noble combat on the field. One step closer to paintball.

Aeiric, I would present your idea for a scenario style combat rather that a blanket allowance and you may get a better response. As it is now I would fight tennis ball throwers tooth and nail. I would on the other hand find it very cool if people actually tried to introduce real sling throwing to the live weapons field.

Uric

Oh Dear God please no more things that throw freaking tennis balls at people in armour.

Did nobles and noble knights in medieval Europe use slings against other fully armoured nobles? Did their squires? Did the people that aspired to grow up to take part in chivalric combat think that these were appropriate? Not in tournaments. Probably not in battle and if so only as an oddball rarity.

Must we really try to recreate every single thing somebody ever did, prior to the medieval era or outside of Europe, just because it is fun, lets other people play who don't want to be up close and personal or because it is effective under our rules set?

Isn't this how we ended up with madus?

Really, what good can come from this? Does it really enhance the battlefield experience for the majority of participants?

Does it make it seem more real to anybody? Do many people really want MORE tennis balls slung at them? Do many people really think it is logical to hit knights with tennis balls from a sling?

Do we really want to exempt yet another missile weapon from the basic HW requirements that the damn thing won't go through your eyeslot? And yes, if a lot of people start using them and snipe from the second or third row, they will be whacking people in the face and most slings go right into a bar grill or large period style occularium (barbute for example).

Just more dumb modern sports balls to lose your footing on...

Do we REALLY need yet ANOTHER group of people that stand far away lobbing bouncy balls at our heads, backs and feet? At least siege weapons look cool and really were used against armoured knights sometimes, even if the ammo looks stupid sometimes.

And tennis balls look REALLY stupid flying through the air, for that reason alone I hate the damn things. Regardless of what throws them. I guess we could duct tape them so they look kinda, sorta like rocks. But I'm guessing the people that think this is a good idea generally won't bother.

And tennis balls bounce all over the place, so I can just see with directed touch thrusts people getting killed by these off deflections. Sigh.

ARGHHHHHH!!!

For Christ's sake, let's just give up, hire a bunch of untrained naked barbarians to fight for us, paint numbers on their back and have them go fight for us using tennis ball rocks flung from jai alai scoops, whack those they miss with unpadded field hockey sticks and be sure all they wear is loincloths. We can sit back, drink Margaritas and direct them around the field like living chess from hell. Put team numbers on them. Have them practice Jimmy Conners and John MacEnroe smack talk...

Why bother putting on armour or training with weapons meant to penetrate armour? Just lob some tennis balls in the direction of the scrum.

I'm amazed Duke Gavin finds this to be a good idea, normally I agree with His Grace on most things. Tennis ball lobbing slings? Noooooo!!!!!!

Maybe I'm just having a bad day, but I find the trendy non-medieval, ignoble weapon de jour approach to be more and more common as time goes on.

Is this really what most of you joined the SCA for? Really?

With CA, for all its faults, you see it used in illustrations of medieval battles against guys in armour, or at least their horses or unarmoured spots.

The only good thing I see about adding sling users, is there will be other targets for the CA guys/gals AND try blocking an arrow with a sling! Fat chance. And if it was a REAL arrow, it would go through the sling! Die, die, die you tennis ball slinging 'rock tossers'! It is enough to make me want a CA crossbow...

Rant, rave, gnash teeth...

Kicking people in the cup is fun. Maybe we should allow that too. It would let more people play. Right now we are unfairly disenfranchising the cup kicking community. And with a good enough cup it would be safe. Why not allow it? It would make us truly a big tent. And it would be much more authentic looking than having tennis balls of doom flying all over from the rock chucking community...

Richard Blackmoore
Disgusted KSCA East

C'mon, Sir Richard... quit beating around the bush... tell us how you feel...

And of course, raising another old topic, we could also come up with safe simulators for period handgonnes

Experimented with one of those back around 2000. Worked, too. Oddly, with the same statistical rate of misfire as my replica matchlock muskets. We were trying to figure out a rule set when I dropped out of the SCA for a while. If a misfire happened, I yelled 'Bang!' and dropped over dead. Tanaka laughed and laughed. I remember that he was goofing about with a staff-sling that year or thereabouts.

Essentially, it was a slingshot, surgical tubing inside a PVC pipe. Fired a wicked tennis ball, which yes, was wrapped with duct tape. Never could figure out how to make it really safe, so the issue is better off dead, IMO.

Sir Richard, might you possibly be talking about the slippery slope? Now I've met you, I can imagine you flailing your arms over your head. It's a very amusing daydream. But seriously, I agree that you have to draw the line somewhere. Being struck by a dropped stone from the ramparts of a fort/castle or a tossed stone from a trebuchet is one thing; getting killed by a rock whipped by arm would make me feel like Bill Ferny feeling the wrath of Sam Gamgee's apple on the road out of Bree. And that's not what the SCA's all about.

Bob (Fairfax)

So I'm thinkin' that's a "no" from Sir Richard...

[quote="Eirik"]I have fought sling back in Meridies during the '80s. Duct taped tennis balls with Xs cut into them. My observations:

1. It won't get called. It is a tennis ball and won't hit hard enough to get noticed. Unless you want to be the dancing pansy calling "I keeled you I keeled you!" from across the field, get used to seeing them hit and fall unheeded.


Solution: Baseballs for sling ammo, maybe softballs for thrown "rocks". Hits with some authority, makes a good noise like a sword shot. It IS armoured combat after all, so WEAR armor and you won't need to whine like a little girl. Those who choose to go unarmored, will pay the price, just as in period.

I would really like to know: Why so much emphasis on thrusting-tip padding standards on lightweight missiles of limited velocity? There is no 300lb duke behind the shaft driving it like a couched lance. MAN-Up for crying out loud.

We should use siloflex arrows and bolts with golfball heads instead of sissy tennis balls or padded rubber stoppers too, but that is a different thread.

Dafydd wrote:So I'm thinkin' that's a "no" from Sir Richard...

I couldn't tell. He was pretty vague about it.

Hmmm. Now I wonder about atl-atls with the thrust and throws.......

(stirring pot and diving for cover)

actually, the Chuckit device seems to take care of the safety issues. Nobody is going to be choked with the thing. We will need to make sure that the butt end is too big to fit in through a faceplate, but other than that, it would be no less safe than a shield edge.

It also LOOK like a sling, though it actually would work more like an atl-atl.

I also dislike the idea of tennis balls flying back and forth, though. They don't hit hard enough, and they do look awful. Perhaps solid rubber balls would work, if they could be found.

A sling bullet is a lead weight, traveling at very high speeds. According to this website, they were solid lead, and weighed between one an a half ounces and two and a half ounces.

http://www.lloydianaspects.co.uk/weapons/sling.html

Here's a picture.



Caesar talks in his war commentaries about sling bullets being heated in fires.

The romans had special forceps for removing sling bullets from legionaires, who were armored with mail. So, yes, sling bullets can hurt people in mail.

But slings are well within out period, and if we are having wars, they fit.

f

Geeze, untwist for a second everyone.

How about -

A rule banning "bare" yellow rocks. And one disallowing hand throwing rocks.

If someone yells "fireball" it's gonna be a joke.


And only have slings in accepted battles - like early period theme battles. I mean the CoT has specialized rules, right?



.

Richard Blackmoore wrote:Oh Dear God please no more things that throw freaking tennis balls at people in armour.

Did nobles and noble knights in medieval Europe use slings against other fully armoured nobles? Did their squires? Did the people that aspired to grow up to take part in chivalric combat think that these were appropriate? Not in tournaments. Probably not in battle and if so only as an oddball rarity.


Richard Blackmoore
Disgusted KSCA East

I agree completely with Sir Richard.
A sling is a peasants weapon and everyone is soppost to be a lord or lady