The Armour Archive

Posted: **Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:21 am**

can a polearm NOT have a head? like if you marked the cutting surface right could you just use a shaft of rattan? i THINK it could be done (i was just curious) because the rules for unpadded heads say they should perform equivalently to solid rattan
(was thinking about when i get into regular heavy i would like a spear i could slash with , which would technically be a polearm)

Posted: **Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:40 am**

The answer to this question depends on the kingdom. You're in the East, where the rules match Society standards - unpadded polearms are legal here.

Here's a link to the Marshal's Handbook - for ALL this sort of information!
http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/doc ... ndbook.pdf

And here's the pertinent quote:

C. Two-Handed Weapons. Weapons which may be used with one or two hands shall have the following requirements:
1. Weapons shall be constructed of rattan of not less than 1 1/4 inch (31.8 mm) in diameter (including tape). Polearms may contain blades constructed of split rattan, so long as the piece(s) are securely fastened to the haft.
2. The weapon shall not be excessively flexible.
3. If the weapon has a head, it shall not be constructed of solely rigid materials. The head shall be firmly and securely attached to the haft. The head shall allow at least 1⁄2 inch (12.7 mm) of progressive give between the striking surface and the weapon haft. Laminated or split rattan construction techniques do not require 1⁄2 inch (12.7 mm) of progressive give, so long as their construction imparts striking characteristics similar to an unpadded weapon constructed of a single piece of rattan.
4. No weapon may have a cutting and/or smashing surface at both ends.
5. When thrusting tips are used, they shall be no less than 2 inches (50.8 mm) in diameter/cross-section and have 2 inches (50.8 mm) of resilient material in front of the rigid tip of the weapon, thereby providing progressively resistant give.
6. Weapons exceeding 7 1⁄2 feet (2.286 m) shall not be used for cutting or smashing and shall be used for thrusting only.
7. Total weapon length shall not exceed 12 feet (3.658 m).

Posted: **Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:24 am**

i had the handbook: i just wanted to be sure i understood it right

Posted: **Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:18 am**

lordeduffy wrote:can a polearm NOT have a head? like if you marked the cutting surface right could you just use a shaft of rattan? i THINK it could be done (i was just curious) because the rules for unpadded heads say they should perform equivalently to solid rattan
(was thinking about when i get into regular heavy i would like a spear i could slash with , which would technically be a polearm)

To put it bluntly...Yes....We had a guy just moved here form either Caid or West, and we were doing this demo one day and he smacks me pretty good...I ignored it cause I thought he was using a 7' rattan spear...He pulled me aside with our Knight marshall afterwards and asked if I felt the blow...Heck yeah I felt the blow, but you can't slash with a spear I says back to him...He then explained it was a glaive... :oops:

Uhhmmm OK, if you say so...So now I know....it can be a peice of rattan and still be a polearm...even if I think it looks like shiite and should have a head so it at least looks like some sort of actual weapon....But I'm kinda anal about that... :lol:

I,like my weapons to look like weapons...

Posted: **Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:43 am**

Mine is split rattan, It is unpadded, and looks like a glaive :wink:

Posted: **Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:50 am**

Eamonn MacCampbell wrote: I,like my weapons to look like weapons...

Yeah, I was posting fast and forgot to include that part. Depending on whom you are hanging out with, you may find the other fighters more appreciative of an attempt to make the rattan staff look like an actual polearm instead of a stick with tape on it. For some groups or events, it's even required.

I love seeing a GOOD attempt at period polearm appearance. That said, I don't see a lot of difference between a big blob of vaguely axe-shaped foam and tape on the end of a stick, and a bare stick. If you're going to bother, take the time to do a good job.

Posted: **Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:25 pm**

lordeduffy wrote:can a polearm NOT have a head? like if you marked the cutting surface right could you just use a shaft of rattan? i THINK it could be done (i was just curious) because the rules for unpadded heads say they should perform equivalently to solid rattan
(was thinking about when i get into regular heavy i would like a spear i could slash with , which would technically be a polearm)

yep, you just desribed a glaive. Note that your role in melee is going to be substantially different than that of a spearsman, though. You lose 2 feet of weapon length by having a striking surface on it, so you play a different game in the line.

Posted: **Sun Apr 26, 2009 5:05 pm**

@ hrolfr : how did you make it from the split rattan? i have no idea on where i would start on making the unpadded head. does anyone know of a tutorial or guide on doing this?
(this is going to be one of those " why did i NOT think of that?" things when i hear the answer right? :wink:

)

@owyn i DO want it to look good which may be why im considering just putting rattan on the end of a rubber axe or hammer (or foam) and taping the shite out of it

Posted: **Sun Apr 26, 2009 5:12 pm**

lordeduffy wrote:@ hrolfr : how did you make it from the split rattan? i have no idea on where i would start on making the unpadded head. does anyone know of a tutorial or guide on doing this?
(this is going to be one of those " why did i NOT think of that?" things when i hear the answer right? )

@owyn i DO want it to look good which may be why im considering just putting rattan on the end of a rubber axe or hammer (or foam) and taping the shite out of it

YOu don't make an unpadded head. It's just the rattan with some tape on it.

Don't over tape a rubber axe head. Frankly, you shouldn't really need to put any tape on it at all. Just put it on the haft and leave it be. People use way to much tape on their weapons and they come out looking totally stupid and bulky.

Posted: **Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:46 pm**

calontir now allows clacker poles, but they must have 1/2" progressive give.

Posted: **Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:07 pm**

lordeduffy wrote:can a polearm NOT have a head? like if you marked the cutting surface right could you just use a shaft of rattan? i THINK it could be done (i was just curious) because the rules for unpadded heads say they should perform equivalently to solid rattan
(was thinking about when i get into regular heavy i would like a spear i could slash with , which would technically be a polearm)

Interesting. The usual interpretation of "unpadded head" for polearm is that you wrap the last 18-26 inches of the rattan with duct tape, build a thrusting tip on that end, and then mark your edges with contrasting tape.

In other words, an unpadded polearm head is just a marked section of a rattan pole.

Posted: **Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:17 pm**

The "equivalent to solid rattan" parts of the rules are referring, if I recall right, to unpadded edges of things like a clacker pole, or a laminated pole (a smaller section of 'blade' taped to a longer section of haft). But when I hear "unpadded glaive" I think a straight chunk of 7' or so rattan with the top two feet wrapped in duct tape and an edge marked on the cutting parts, with thrusting tips on both ends.

That's pretty much the "standard polearm" of the Northern Army.

As for heads, there's a few nice ways. Windrose has a couple of axe heads which I've seen people make amazing weapons from - foam rubber, works great, looks great. Hardly needs tape. Nice because you can hook shields with it too...

If you do a search, Olaf has posted here his techniques for axe heads too. Kayak foam, if I remember right... And his weapons are top notch. He uses it for short axes, but I can't see why it wouldn't work for a pole.

I've also used laminated leather for a head like that - cut chunks of leather, laminate them together, have the outer layer wrap around the haft, tape the whole thing together. Might need to tape a bit of foam to the blade, to ensure it meets standards for the marshals.

Any of these can work well.

The important thing is taking the time (or spending the money) to do it right.

Posted: **Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:38 am**

lordeduffy wrote:@ hrolfr : how did you make it from the split rattan? i have no idea on where i would start on making the unpadded head. does anyone know of a tutorial or guide on doing this?
(this is going to be one of those " why did i NOT think of that?" things when i hear the answer right? )

I still don't have the URL shortening thig down, but here is a good tutorial from legiodraconis.com (also a good place to hang out, especially if you live in MidRealm)

http://www.legiodraconis.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=336&page=1

I did mine following this.

Posted: **Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:51 am**

audax wrote:
lordeduffy wrote:@ hrolfr : how did you make it from the split rattan? i have no idea on where i would start on making the unpadded head. does anyone know of a tutorial or guide on doing this?
(this is going to be one of those " why did i NOT think of that?" things when i hear the answer right? )

@owyn i DO want it to look good which may be why im considering just putting rattan on the end of a rubber axe or hammer (or foam) and taping the shite out of it

YOu don't make an unpadded head. It's just the rattan with some tape on it.

Don't over tape a rubber axe head. Frankly, you shouldn't really need to put any tape on it at all. Just put it on the haft and leave it be. People use way to much tape on their weapons and they come out looking totally stupid and bulky.

Buy high quality tape, keep it warm when you're working with it, and stretch it to a skin tight fit as you're applying it to the rattan

Posted: **Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:43 am**

sha-ul wrote:calontir now allows clacker poles, but they must have 1/2" progressive give.

Calontir has allowed clackers for many years. Only just recently has it become more popular to make them.

Posted: **Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:59 pm**

I can't find anything on glaive specifics for the kingdom of Glean Abhann.
My normal fight place marshal (Shire of Vogelburg) said that taping a blade onto the shaft was fine. Then I went to Shire Loch Bais (same kingdom) last night and they were under the impression that I needed padding and a clacker head. I don't know which is correct and I am quite happy with my taped-on blade, so I really need to know.

Please help!
Thanks,
-Swete

Posted: **Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:12 pm**

In Meridies, Sir Stuart fights with a split rattan glaive. He split the rattan and wedged little rolls of leather into the ends of the split to keep it open.

Thusly:

Posted: **Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:23 pm**

Here is a pic of mine. Its not exactly what I want it at yet, but kind of out of time.

Since my personna wouldnt have a pole, this is based more off of a slashing spear/boar spear that I have seen pulled out of some frankish and alamannic grave sites.

Posted: **Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:29 pm**

Eirik wrote:In Meridies, Sir Stuart fights with a split rattan glaive. He split the rattan and wedged little rolls of leather into the ends of the split to keep it open.

Thusly:

i like this polearm =] i like how there isnt a wedge in the middle i might have to go make one =] *rushes off*

Posted: **Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:27 pm**

But what about the rules concerning Gleann Abhann? Do I need a clacker blade? :cry:

I must know! :shock:

Posted: **Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:51 pm**

You can have taped stick polearm here in Meridies last I know. But like the guys and gals above said, it does look kinda lame in comparison to a shaped blade. A split pole is the best compromise in my opinion

.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:50 am**

Unpadded polearms are a crutch.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:01 am**

I don't have a camera handy, but I just carved a glaive out of a 4 inch thick rattan log. The head is 3.5 inches by 2 inches by 20 inches. The handle is a oval 1.5x1.25. It is unpadded, and looks glaivey.

Its not a crutch but after my boy Wulf hits someone with it they may need some.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:05 am**

Yeah, but you're Japanese! They are allowed to have them.

We had just banned them in our household for European persona's. A weapon has to look like a weapon.

One reason I was going to make a Japanese persona was to use my unpadded pole. :twisted:

Instead, I just had to add an axe head to it and suffer through people not taking it in melees....

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:11 am**

Nah. Leo, this thing is... I don't know.. knightly. It is a carving of a glaive shaped object. but instead of padding, is solid wood.

You would love it. I'll get a picture at Pennsic or if you are there I will try to get my guy to hit you with it once we are on oposite sides after Tuesday afternoon.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:21 am**

Nicely done Nissan! Now if I can just carve a solid pollaxe we should have some fun!

Foam is a bane on the game IMO.

-Aaron

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:29 am**

Eirik wrote:In Meridies, Sir Stuart fights with a split rattan glaive. He split the rattan and wedged little rolls of leather into the ends of the split to keep it open.

Thusly:

Mine looks like this, except I used rattan wedges to keep it split.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:39 am**

I use an unpadded pole at Pennsic.

I found that people almost always took a head shot, but I had to crank up way too high to get people to take body or leg shots.

I didn't want to end up hitting someone in the head with one of those cranked up shots.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:45 am**

Leo Medii wrote:Unpadded polearms are a crutch.

A few years ago, when I messed up my leg in the UK and had to fly home with crutches, I thought it was stupid that the airport people made me take my shoes off, but had no objection to my taking two sturdy wooden crutches on board. I thought, I could totally kill somebody with this crutch. It's like an unpadded polearm.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:56 am**

Swete wrote:But what about the rules concerning Gleann Abhann? Do I need a clacker blade? I must know!

Settle down... have you checked the Fighter Handbook on the kingdom website?

Unpadded glaives are not legal in Gleann Abhann but split rattan ones are.
Padded glaives and clacker glaives are good too.

If you are making your blade just with duct tape on a stick of rattan (unsplit) it's illegal in Gleann Abhann.

Tell Titus he's wrong and I said so.

-John

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:04 am**

John Widcombe wrote:
Swete wrote:But what about the rules concerning Gleann Abhann? Do I need a clacker blade? I must know!

Settle down... have you checked the Fighter Handbook on the kingdom website?

Unpadded glaives are not legal in Gleann Abhann but split rattan ones are.
Padded glaives and clacker glaives are good too.

If you are making your blade just with duct tape on a stick of rattan (unsplit) it's illegal in Gleann Abhann.

Tell Titus he's wrong and I said so.

-John

Ok!

I think I'll try padding it first...

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:01 pm**

Leo Medii wrote:We had just banned them in our household for European persona's. A weapon has to look like a weapon.

What???

Your confused squire,

Odo

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:05 pm**

Odo of the Abbey of Saint wrote:
Leo Medii wrote:We had just banned them in our household for European persona's. A weapon has to look like a weapon.

What???

Your confused squire,

Odo

You have a historical counterpart for your's. Everyone else threw axe heads on.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:28 pm**

John Widcombe wrote:Unpadded glaives are not legal in Gleann Abhann but split rattan ones are.
Padded glaives and clacker glaives are good too.

If you are making your blade just with duct tape on a stick of rattan (unsplit) it's illegal in Gleann Abhann.

So, what's the reasoning for this IKA thing? Safety perception? Historical accuracy? SCA inertia?

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:18 pm**

If you are making your blade just with duct tape on a stick of rattan (unsplit) it's illegal in Gleann Abhann.

I love Gleann Abhann. NUff said.

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