Wearing steel - what do we gain? what do we lose?

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Fri May 08, 2009 8:44 am

If all men silenced their doubts and listened to the wisdom of Master Magnus, all men would be wiser. I might print out his post and staple it to my wall. Or tape it to my armour box.

I know that I will never <i>actually</i> be a spanish grandee from the late 1500's pounding the heathens in the Low Countries. But let not the best be the enemy of the good. I take my cues from those who both excel in the art of combat, and look awesome doing it. I'll get as close as I can, as my skill, time, & budget allow.

I am minded of the apocryphal story of the school demo, attended by a Society knight in 'Society' gear, and a guy in full plate. A kid comes up and says, "I wanna talk to the knight!". The Society knight grins and starts to walk over. The kid points to the full-plate guy and says, "No, the KNIGHT!"

RoaK · Post by **RoaK** » Fri May 08, 2009 9:12 am

I wear lots of armor for a few reasons... first it's medieval armored combat and that's what I want to do and experience, second it looks bad assed and third my doc says to knock it off on getting the deep burses; I'm no spring chicken any more and stuff like that will catch up to me quicker than I think.

Most of all I like the look...

And while we are at it another school demo story; we were doing a demo for an elementary school and I was taking a break away from where we were fighting kind of off to my self. Three boys rode up to me on bicycles and stared at me for a minute or two. I was catching my breath and I just sat there for a second looking back at them. Finely I said hello there and one of the kids said, â€œYou just do that because youâ€™re afraid to play footballâ€

Iain (Bunny) Ruadh · Post by **Iain (Bunny) Ruadh** » Fri May 08, 2009 10:58 am

Just chiming in on my reason.

I want to help my opponent ... yup, that seems to be deep down why for me.

I find I'm happiest when I've got my full rig on and giving my opponent the chance for that 'Moment' ... when everything else around fades away and all they see is the 14th C. man-at-arms with full visor and transitional plate with a poleaxe that he is trying to best. Yup it's good for the crowd too I suppose, but giving someone the chance to go 'there' in their mind even if for a fleeting moment. The place they always dreamt of as a kid reading the story & history books. I might not mean much to some, but I really enjoy it when afterwards you can see the gleam in their eyes.

Another reason for me is agreeing with what others have pointed out. The fellas who did it originally really got to 'field test' variations alot. I too find when I stop trying to re-invent the wheel and catch the little tips and tricks they used it works best. My face visor that Patrick Thaden made off based of the Nuremberg extant one is incredible for visibility and breathing. Very good example of learning from the past.

I think the recent influx of heated spring steel is helping get the durablility we need for the concussive repeated blows and get the lightening needed for longer fights. I'm also a firm believer in natural fibers for the heat regulation issue.

Don't get me wrong I still have chunks of stainless due to maintenance mainly. But there is a different feel when you have the right type of gear, fitted and mounted properly onto support clothing/padding.

Edmund of Hertford · Post by **Edmund of Hertford** » Fri May 08, 2009 11:25 am

My comments were meant more to address the contruction techniques and forms as opposed to materials.

But to your point, I have never much cared for the "if they had it they would have used it argument" because at that point, why use swords, guns are better, why use guns, f-16s are better etc, etc. That is not to say I am opposed to material substitution, especially when health, cost, and workability are an issue, I just don't care for that particular piece of the material substitution argument.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Fri May 08, 2009 1:20 pm

blackbow wrote:You guys that want to wear steel, knock yourselves out. When that much weight screws up your joints and cuts your active hobby life in half, I hope you got what you wanted out of it.

Hi John,

No injuries so far, and I think I'll fight until I'm 70 in full plate. It actually is supportive and the injuries I've seen are mostly self-inflicted by those with less than full plate.

I'm not in my "dream armour" yet. That's the Tonlet Armour of the Chamberlain of Burgandy, 1500 AD. Someday I'll have that in spring (spring stainless would be better).

The steel is actually protective against self-inflicted injuries, IMO.

-Aaron

Vladimir · Post by **Vladimir** » Fri May 08, 2009 1:37 pm

blackbow wrote: Trust me, if there'd been a way to make armor out of graphite back then, they'd have done it. If they'd had aluminum or titanium back then, all their armor would have been made out of it.

Yes, and if they had a way to make tanks and airplanes they would have done that too. Followed to it's logical conclusion the SCA would become nothing but our normal lives in a feudal society.

blackbow wrote:
I'm sure that one reason chainmail fell out of fashion is because it was time consuming and expensive, and it was a lot easier to simply make steel plates. And oh yeah, it was heavy as all get out.

I'm not so sure about that. Making plate certainly go easier as better methods of refining ore were discovered. But I'm not certain that forging ingots and plattening them into sheets for cutting and riveting is all that much easier than forging bars and drawing them into wire for cutting and riveting.

I don't think maille ever did fall completely out of fashion until armour did in general.

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Fri May 08, 2009 1:46 pm

blackbow wrote:You know, it's interesting. the period enthusiasts wax enthusiastic about the "fact" that they "get to exist like they did back then."

People, don't kid yourselves. It wasn't some romanticized thing like what we do. your life isn't on the line here. You're not fighting for a damn thing other than fun.

Regards

Jonathan Blackbow

Interesting take on the issue. I'm working very hard to build a duplicate of the Rene Tourney suits. It's a suit specificly designed for manly men having fun in a sport context by smacking each other around with big heavy sticks. They often it it to contrived rules in an effort to re-invision the role of King Arthur and the Knights of Camelot. Yeah they also did most of it from horseback but I ain't got that sorta cash burning a hole in my pocket.

I think it WAS a romanticized thing just like what we do and I think they also did it for fun (as well as to stay in practice for a war in which they would probably hire profesional soldiers to take their place if they could.)

And honestly I'm happy with the versimilitude of the act. It may not BE 100% realistic but I want the most important part to FEEL as close to real as I can get it. When I play on a flight simulator I don't want missions that involve hours of cruising to the target, I want the thrill of the combat and realistic dog-fighting manuvers and big flashy explosios and then I want to skip the return flight and get to the next mission.

And to the extent of the 'fun' of it. If all I wanted as the thrill of combat I'd be doing full contact martial arts... or more likely paint-ball since I'm not as athletic as I might want to believe... but part of the fun of the thrill is that this is MEDIEVAL combat, not Elves vs Orcs combat, not Mad-Max extras combat, not even modern combat with sticks. So I'm going to do my best to embrace as much of what seems to feel medieval and what I know to be medieval and hopefully I can embrace this with other like minded individuals within a subset of the SCA and we can all have a good time together.

Sean

Amanda M · Post by **Amanda M** » Fri May 08, 2009 3:22 pm

Our ancestors or whatever you'd like to call them, peoples from long ago, did romanticize warriors from the past just as we do today within what was to them at the time a modern context. The Nine Worthies are one such example where the idealism of later people did not exactly match up to reality.

Sigifrith Hauknefr · Post by **Sigifrith Hauknefr** » Fri May 08, 2009 3:52 pm

Fought my first practice in a riveted steel haubergeon last night. Uh, sleeves suck. I am going to try to figure out a way to fit it better.

I decided to try it since the mail shirt weighs within 1 lb. of my stainless lamellar.

Blaine de Navarre · Post by **Blaine de Navarre** » Fri May 08, 2009 5:13 pm

Sigifrith Hauknefr wrote:Uh, sleeves suck. I am going to try to figure out a way to fit it better.

Yeah, the arm holes on the Indian shirts tend to be a little wonky. I bought some extra rings, planning on doing a little tailoring, but then let it slide so long I just got used to fighting with 'em that way.

Sigifrith Hauknefr · Post by **Sigifrith Hauknefr** » Fri May 08, 2009 5:26 pm

Blaine de Navarre wrote:
Sigifrith Hauknefr wrote:Uh, sleeves suck. I am going to try to figure out a way to fit it better.

Yeah, the arm holes on the Indian shirts tend to be a little wonky. I bought some extra rings, planning on doing a little tailoring, but then let it slide so long I just got used to fighting with 'em that way.

I just find that there is an extra ~pound on each arm and shoulder (relative to the hardened leather spades I am used to wearing) that is hard to move around, and it "flops" a bit. Good practice though.

Bruhn Engbrecht · Post by **Bruhn Engbrecht** » Sat May 09, 2009 2:26 am

+15 agility
+10 Stamina
+700 vs magic attacks
+1 to all skill levels

AHHH NEVER Lol, i would just say wearing steel would increase endurance and strength over a long peroid of time let alone yes authenticity. But would also be harder on the body in the long run.

Amanda M · Post by **Amanda M** » Sat May 09, 2009 9:32 am

I think that really depends on how it's being worn. ie Properly fitted and articulated, hung from the appropriate period garments. There is a big difference between some steel plates just strapped to the body and proper weight distribution of well fitted steel armor.

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Sat May 09, 2009 10:41 am

I weighed myself in and out of harness. 40 lbs, including both arms, finger gauntlets, cased greaves, and bascinet with aventail. The shield is 7 lbs, and the sword shy of 3, so less than 50 lbs.

John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Amanda M · Post by **Amanda M** » Sat May 09, 2009 10:43 am

I have to wear more than that for my job. :wink:

BobKnight · Post by **BobKnight** » Sat May 09, 2009 11:50 am

John, is your rig 14th century? How heavy is your body protection?

Josh W · Post by **Josh W** » Sat May 09, 2009 3:58 pm

One's physical condition should be taken into account as well. Someone who is physically fit can better bear the weight of harness than the average modern American couch potato. My armour hinders me only slightly, though the entire rig--steel plate harness, arming doublet, and attendant mail bits, etc.--weighs in excess of 65 pounds. I can turn cartwheels in it with no trouble.

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Sat May 09, 2009 4:20 pm

John, Joaquin, I got asked a question the other day, and I know that we covered this a little at CiT -- how much is your movement speed reduced by wearing the full harness? I don't remember how long it took to do that jog as we were setting up the "theoretical battlefield" at CiT, but I've got a couple curious gamers, and don't want to give them a crap answer if I can give them a good one.

Josh W · Post by **Josh W** » Sat May 09, 2009 5:05 pm

Linear running speed is probably not reduced all that much. As long as your legs can keep up, you can gather some pretty serious momentum while running full-tilt in harness. Your thighs will ache afterwards, though, if you keep it up for too long.

freiman the minstrel · Sat May 09, 2009 6:10 pm

I have just read over this thread, and for some reason it didn't jive with me. For some reason, the original question just didn't register.

This is not the fault of the original poster.

I am reading some things into Owyn's post that may not be there, but I am getting the impression that the underlying question is "why would you wear full steel harness when it limits your ability to win?" Owyn, please forgive me if this was not your intent.

But, that question (the one I typed, and not the one that Owyn typed) is meaningless in terms of our game.

Our game is one in which we get to simulate medieval combat. We get to be the Knight in Shining Armor. Not pretend, we actually get to be that guy. There are no dice to roll, and no disks to boot. It's all about what you will allow yourself to be. Furthermore, our rules are set up to reinforce that. You get to be as honorable and as honest as you care to be. You are the one that decides whether you win or lose.

BUT, if you want to win more than you want to be a Knight in Shining Armor, that isn't prohibited. You could wear plastic. It would be more efficient to simply never call a blow that hit you.

By this I DON'T mean to equate people that include plastic in their kits with awful, evil, poopiepants rhinos. I simply mean to say that if you are so worried about winning that you are willing to give up being a Knight in Shining Armor, you are approaching the game from a different mindset that the one in which I do.

And everybody is allowed to approach this game from whatever angle they care to. My way isn't the one true way. If you are having fun, and you are my playmate, I am all for your approach.

f

Nissan Maxima · Post by **Nissan Maxima** » Sat May 09, 2009 6:27 pm

Though made of both plastic and steel, my kit weighs 70 lbs with weapons. The plastic parts are plastic because I do not have a little guy who's life's work is to fix any chips in the laquer (made out of poison sumac if we do it right) And it looks pretty much right, which is for me and a gesture of respect for the people that I am trying to club with a stick.

I cant do a cartwheel in it, but I can't do a cartwheel out of it either. :twisted:

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Sat May 09, 2009 7:34 pm

Baron Alejandro wrote:I am minded of the apocryphal story of the school demo, attended by a Society knight in 'Society' gear, and a guy in full plate. A kid comes up and says, "I wanna talk to the knight!". The Society knight grins and starts to walk over. The kid points to the full-plate guy and says, "No, the KNIGHT!"

I have a similar story in this vein, that I must say is one of the highlights of my SCA "career" in recent years.

A couple years ago, at the Festival of Maidens (an event at a location open to the public), I was winding down with some pickups after a the tourney. Amid the 50+ heavy fighters that were there that day, a young boy (5 or 6) came up to me and asked if he could have his picture taken with me. As the boy walked away after the picture, I heard him say to his father, "That knight was so cool to let me take a picture with him!" How I had done in the tourney didnt matter. That moment had made my week.

Owyn · Post by **Owyn** » Sat May 09, 2009 8:49 pm

Leo Medii wrote:To me, as to them, my armor is a statement of my intent, ideals and my desires. It is an extention of my body and soul.

I prefer my soul to espouse steel and leather, not the bucket that car wash soap came out of last month.

What a great quote.

Phew. I've read through all the replies here three times, and spent overnight thinking about them all.

Freiman, your question is a valid one, but no, I wasn't asking "what's the point?" I can feel the point. I love the feel of wearing good steel armor. It appeals down in my gut in a way that's hard to describe.

At the same time, fighting well appeals too.

And I look at the new 3lb 16 gauge steel arms I have, and the old plastic ones that are well under a pound, and know darned well that it is *going* to have an impact on my fighting - on how well I can fight, and for how long. I'm doing pell work with 1.5lb wrist weights to help train for heavier armor, but...no matter how strong my arms get, I'm simply going to move slower in the 3lbs than in the 0.5lbs, and not be able to fight for as long.

Despite what some folks have said, it seems to me like there's a choice here. Not between looking good or not - you can look period and not have a ton of weight from true armor - but between wearing what's available of "the real stuff" and reaching maximal effectiveness.

I want both.

Blackoak · Post by **Blackoak** » Sat May 09, 2009 9:42 pm

I think one of the points is that we have personal preference and personal paths, so there is no one true way. I have put on more armour the longer I have played. I currently wear about 40 pounds of gear vs the hockey gear, plastic lamellar and pads I wore early on.

I have had good tourney success with light gear, but I PERSONALLY felt I was missing something. I shifted my own focus onto research as my desire grew to get closer to actual medieval gear. But I think an important thing to realize it is compromise. I personally think appearance is more important than authentic as far as materials. We do not do what they did and our reasons are different. While my armour weighs more now, it is all custom fitted to me and my performance suffers little. The weight is a reminder to me to keep my body conditioned and able to perform a strenuous activity. It gives me personal satisfaction to don armour and I NEVER got that with my other gear.

As far as an SCA context goes, you do the Society a great service with your appearance. I don't care if you don't wear metal but I DO care if you look like nothing that was seen in period. There were many unarmoured combatants, at least try to look like one of them.

Uric

AvM · Post by **AvM** » Sun May 10, 2009 12:04 am

Kenwrec Wulfe wrote:I have to say that one of my favorite parts is going to an event and having someone say "Nice kit."

After seeing you on the archive all the years, it was AWESOME to finally meet you at last year's Rose Tournament.

Your kit is the shizznit, dude. I just HAD to come up to you and tell you how good you look.

Robert of Canterbury · Mon May 11, 2009 7:54 am

As someone who fights in a lot of steel I thought I might address Some of the most frequently quoted drawbacks of a predominantly steel harness.
I started in 16ga mild, and moved to springsteel after five years. I've done a fair amount of traveling with kit, in the UK, Throughout europe, to & from & within the US & Canada, and even to NZ and Back. I'm 6'2" and only 156lbs (11 Stone) (186cm, 70kg)

Weight on the field. My Harness has stayed fairly constant at about 25kg/60lbs, as I went to spring, I added more mail.
I don't find the weight too onerous now, and it has got much easier to bear as I've got better fitting Armour. I'm not super fit, but I practice once per week. Less weight does equal a bit more speed, But less protection for me = less fighting time.

Weight difficulties in traveling. A great fallacy. As mentioned, I've done a lot of traveling, Mainstream airlines, budget airlines, trains, taxis, liftshares, you name it, i've got from a to b, and much of it with a 7' pollaxe in the mix. you may not be able to take all your soft kit you might want, but I manage to dress OK, and still have room for some music and a couple of instruments. Take the time to work out a good way to carry your kit. Get luggage that works for you. I find a proper Backpack with a waist belt and adjustable shoulder straps works well. Good Wheeled luggage works too. Learn how your armour packs together, eg Gauntlets inside helm, arms inside legs, etc.

Maintenance. Its easy once you know how.
I live in England. The Wet place. My helm is stainless, everything else will rust like a bastard given half a chance..
So don't. Make natural fibre cloth Bags for each of your armour pieces, and buy some liquid Lanolin spray (I use Lanoguard, http://www.lanoguard.co.nz/products.html). After fighting wipe your piece dry with a towel, spray with lanolin, put in the bag. the Lanolin will permeate the bags, and you'll have no significant rust issues ever again. the armour comes out slightly greased, and this will protect against ran & sweat, so long as you clean it off after fighting. Every time. it takes me maybe 5mins more to armour down.
Learn to pein a rivet, hang out with some armourers till you have a minimal understanding of how stuff works. Long enough to learn how to replace a strap. if there are no armourers near you, there's a good online forum called the armour archive..

and if you add a close helm,
Vision and breathing. Breathing has not been that much of an issue for me, but it was a little odd at first. you will probably doff your helm slightly more frequently in the breaks, but it's no bad thing.
Vision can be challenging, but I've found I have adapted over time. All other things being equal, More visibility is undeniably an advantage, but I gather there are fighters who win crowns in close helms.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Mon May 11, 2009 9:02 am

The major drawback I've experienced is the time it takes to get armoured up correctly. I'm often strapping bits on and asking for help (when my son is not there)...while others arrive, get their armour out of the bag, throw it on, and have already gone a couple of rounds.

The fastest I've armoured up is 15 minutes. It's usually 30 minutes.

But once it's on, I feel GREAT!

-Aaron

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Mon May 11, 2009 10:02 am

I've seen crap looking metal, and hidden plastic that looked awesome on the field.

Look the best you can within SCA allowances.
Have fun.
Do the research, the building, care and practice becuase YOU love it.
Fight becuase you love it.
Have fun!
Don't blame your armor, weapons if you lose.
Don't blame the other guy's armor or weapons if you lose.
Have fun.

We all get exactly want we want out of SCA combat, and put in exactly what we want.

Unless the Jagger's Law comes into play.

.

Edmund of Hertford · Post by **Edmund of Hertford** » Mon May 11, 2009 10:22 am

Leo Medii wrote:
I will gladly accept your apology Saturday : ) (Bastard Sword, Great Sword, or Pole Axe?)

Ah ha! THAT kind of apology!

Sounds like fun! I'll bring all of them.

I am happy to report that my brother Sir Kieran did meet me on the field at Baron Wars in the Barony of Red Spears this weekend past. He made sincere apology with words spoken in humble and knightly fashion. We did then contest with poleaxes to five counted blows to any legal SCA target. Our challenge was satisfied, but we enjoyed our passess so thoroughly that we opted a second set of five counted blows. Sir Kieran did acquit himself in noble and knightly fashion and it was my pleasure provide him instruction in diplomacy.

Balin D'Acier · Post by **Balin D'Acier** » Mon May 11, 2009 11:08 am

Sigifrith Hauknefr wrote:I just find that there is an extra ~pound on each arm and shoulder (relative to the hardened leather spades I am used to wearing) that is hard to move around, and it "flops" a bit.

I'd be interested to hear how/if you overcome the "flopping" issue. I'm eyeing a haubergeon set up myself and was wondering about this very issue.

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Tue May 12, 2009 8:54 pm

Edmund of Hertford wrote:
Leo Medii wrote:
I will gladly accept your apology Saturday : ) (Bastard Sword, Great Sword, or Pole Axe?)

Ah ha! THAT kind of apology!

Sounds like fun! I'll bring all of them.

I am happy to report that my brother Sir Kieran did meet me on the field at Baron Wars in the Barony of Red Spears this weekend past. He made sincere apology with words spoken in humble and knightly fashion. We did then contest with poleaxes to five counted blows to any legal SCA target. Our challenge was satisfied, but we enjoyed our passess so thoroughly that we opted a second set of five counted blows. Sir Kieran did acquit himself in noble and knightly fashion and it was my pleasure provide him instruction in diplomacy.

A couple of pics-

And, one pass someone caught on video-
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v168/ ... CF1216.flv

benz72 · Post by **benz72** » Thu May 14, 2009 12:56 am

Oddly enough, I'm having to reduce armor. I got a spiffy stainless cuirasse that I can't feel blows through reliably. It's not just that it's way better protection than the tabbard covered hockey pads I was wearing for far too long. It is SO protective that if I'm moving and I get hit, but the blow doesn't change my momentum to give me a proprioceptive cue I may well miss the shot.
So I'm getting a wisby coat (in Ti for weight & corrosion resistance) in an effort to ensure I don't rob my opponents of their victories.
The steel looks good, fells pretty good (it could always be better) and is easy to care for, but it just isn't working out for me.
I'll probably still wear it to wars from time to time, but I think it's tournament days are nearing an end and I definately want to replace it before I enter another coronet or crown.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Thu May 14, 2009 5:36 am

The steel will make shots that aren't exactly at a 90 degreee angle to the steel bounce and skip, taking a lot of the power away. That's the reason I calibrate to "Did I feel it at all?" now. A truly "light" shot won't even be felt.

If you hammer a rivett, you need to be straight on, at a 90 degree angle or there abouts. If you try and hammer the rivett at a 45 degree angle, you lose a huge amount of power into the rivett.

The same is true of a standard SCA blow to plate. We use rounded clubs. When a round, almost ball-like object (like the bats we use), strikes a curved, smooth surface (like the steel armour) at something less than a perfect 90 degree angle, the force is massively reduced. Like skipping a rock on a smooth lake surface (sort of).

For example, my suit is all 18 guage stainless, with one, minor dent from being a stationary pell during a demonstration. 18 gauge stainless can be worked by some armourers by their bare hands. But due to the shaping and fluting and curved surfaces, SCA blows tend to "skip, slide and bounce", drastically reducing the force so that I have to accept "touch".

It's just a cost of wearing armour on the SCA battlefield. We're all in this game together, and IMO it's a game of tag and dressup. If I get anal about calibration I've ruined someone's fun. And I have fun just touching my armour.

With respect,

-Aaron

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Thu May 14, 2009 7:19 am

freiman the minstrel wrote: I simply mean to say that if you are so worried about winning that you are willing to give up being a Knight in Shining Armor, you are approaching the game from a different mindset that the one in which I do.

QFT, mates!

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Thu May 14, 2009 8:35 am

AvM wrote:
Kenwrec Wulfe wrote:I have to say that one of my favorite parts is going to an event and having someone say "Nice kit."

After seeing you on the archive all the years, it was AWESOME to finally meet you at last year's Rose Tournament.

Your kit is the shizznit, dude. I just HAD to come up to you and tell you how good you look.

It was excellent meeting you too! Will you be there this year?