Wearing steel - what do we gain? what do we lose?

[blackbow]

Vlad: you genuinely believe that if given the choice you would go with chain over plate?

JB

Trust me, if there'd been a way to make armor out of graphite back then, they'd have done it. If they'd had aluminum or titanium back then, all their armor would have been made out of it.

Yes, and if they had a way to make tanks and airplanes they would have done that too. Followed to it's logical conclusion the SCA would become nothing but our normal lives in a feudal society.

I'm sure that one reason chainmail fell out of fashion is because it was time consuming and expensive, and it was a lot easier to simply make steel plates. And oh yeah, it was heavy as all get out.

I'm not so sure about that. Making plate certainly go easier as better methods of refining ore were discovered. But I'm not certain that forging ingots and plattening them into sheets for cutting and riveting is all that much easier than forging bars and drawing them into wire for cutting and riveting.

I don't think maille ever did fall completely out of fashion until armour did in general.

[blackbow]

Something else to think about -

steel is awfully pretty, no question. But one of the things about the SCA that makes it so wildly popular is its inclusivity. Not as authentic as some other groups, but I find it interesting that everybody stays associated with a bigger group rather than form their own smaller groups of more authentic people. I can only conclude that even the steel types like the roar of the (bigger) crowd as much as anybody else.

Regards

Jonathan Blackbow

[benz72]

---Snip--
But due to the shaping and fluting and curved surfaces, SCA blows tend to "skip, slide and bounce", drastically reducing the force so that I have to accept "touch".

It's just a cost of wearing armour on the SCA battlefield. We're all in this game together, and IMO it's a game of tag and dressup. If I get anal about calibration I've ruined someone's fun. And I have fun just touching my armour.

With respect,

-Aaron

That's sort of the point though... the shot that made me change my mind about my armor was a thrust that I didn't see, didn't hear and didn't feel. By taking away one form of sensing blows I denied a good fighter his shot in a tournament.

Maybe this is just my own neuosis, but for tournaments that end in a new hat I can't do that. I try not to sluff shots anywhere (as I'm sure you do as well) but there are some situations where the results are not worth the risks.
To me there is a world of difference between:
'That guy in the opposing line who didn't like my spear thrust'
and
'That prick of a Prince who only won because he doesn't take shots'

Maybe it say something unflattering about me that I'm willing to risk the former, but at least I run as far away from the later as possible (caveat: not that I'm in danger of winning a coronet any time soon)

I guess we are looking at this from two slightly different angles.

Respectfully,
Bennett

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

(caveat: not that I'm in danger of winning a coronet any time soon)

And, that Bennett, is why you fail.

I've fought you quite a bit - and all you lack to win Coronet in the Mists is the will and determination to do so. You have the skill. Plate armor and all.

[Vladimir]

Vlad: you genuinely believe that if given the choice you would go with chain over plate?

JB

No, I'm saying that the use of maille did not go out of date just because plate became more readily available.

Take this picture for example.
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=97070

This is obviously a person of some wealth, yet he did not purchase plate arms to go with his breast plate.

Why?

I suspect that even at this late date, when the handgun was beginning to take the field, maille must have been less expensive than plate.

Think about it, they couldn't just press out a sheet of steel. They would have needed a large enough bloom of consistent metal with few impurities. That metal would have needed to be heated and beaten into a thin sheet of uniform thickness, with no cracks. This would require an expert. Then that sheet could be cut and formed.

Maille on the other hand is drawn, a process that requires muscle, but fewer expertise than making sheet metal. Smaller blooms of iron can be used, if a section has impurities or imperfections they can simply be cut away and not used.

Both required a lot of time, but the technical expertise were less for the maille. It was already centuries old technology. Therefore maille is less expensive.

[Aaron]

But one of the things about the SCA that makes it so wildly popular is its inclusivity.

John,

I would be horrified if the SCA tent shrunk. Enough people have told me I should or can't fight because of the steel. It would be poor of me to not turn the other cheek and forbid what they love.

OK, even if it wouldn't reduce numbers, I would be horrified. If I could, with a wave of a magic wand:

1. Make ALL fighters into cap-a-pie fighters who enjoy it like I do.

2. Heal all their injuries so they are in perfect health with washboard stomachs

3. Gave them all form-fitting spring stainless cap-a-pie suits

4. Went directly to counted blows...

I would be horrified.

The SCA is a stew of various people in a historical and non-historical array of armour. As a cap-a-pie fighter, I'm the extra-spicy pepper (rare) that makes the stew a little better. If the entire stew were extra-spicy pepper, it would be horrible.

With respect,

-Aaron

[Aaron]

Bennett,

That's why I calibrate to "touch" (yes, I can feel a tickle) and take as lightly as I can. I even take "I think I got you."

I enjoy fighting in the steel. I really do. I don't need to win to enjoy the fight (and that's a good thing, I rarely win). In fact, if I win I become concerned that I might have missed something my opponent threw. If I lose, I have no concerns.


A crown would ruin my work and family life. Having a white belt would give me more to overthink and a chance to shoot off my mouth less (perception of being chivalry). Being any of the orders would force me to sit in meetings.

I win my freedomby NOT winning and just focusing on Deeds of Arms and pickups between friends.

-Aaron

[benz72]

(caveat: not that I'm in danger of winning a coronet any time soon)

And, that Bennett, is why you fail.

I've fought you quite a bit - and all you lack to win Coronet in the Mists is the will and determination to do so. You have the skill. Plate armor and all.

Thank you my friend, it means a lot. But in all reality I think that mental block will be there for quite a while. If this is a case of "Whether you think you can or think you can't you are right" doesn't factor into it as much as being able to convince oneself (OK, myself) that one SHOULD win.
The guy with the biggest list of my flaws and shortcomings is hard to argue with... unless I get him drunk... but then I'm drunk too...

Anyway, thanks, I'll be working on it. (watch out Caid, you're on my list for October)

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming about something way more important than my ego and skill set.

[blackbow]

Amen to that. It takes people like Duke Cariadoc's Enchanted Ground and the steel plate crowd, and the Routiers, and etc, to balance out the rest.

JB

But one of the things about the SCA that makes it so wildly popular is its inclusivity.

John,

I would be horrified if the SCA tent shrunk. Enough people have told me I should or can't fight because of the steel. It would be poor of me to not turn the other cheek and forbid what they love.

OK, even if it wouldn't reduce numbers, I would be horrified. If I could, with a wave of a magic wand:

1. Make ALL fighters into cap-a-pie fighters who enjoy it like I do.

2. Heal all their injuries so they are in perfect health with washboard stomachs

3. Gave them all form-fitting spring stainless cap-a-pie suits

4. Went directly to counted blows...

I would be horrified.

The SCA is a stew of various people in a historical and non-historical array of armour. As a cap-a-pie fighter, I'm the extra-spicy pepper (rare) that makes the stew a little better. If the entire stew were extra-spicy pepper, it would be horrible.

With respect,

-Aaron

[James Adair]

If all men silenced their doubts and listened to the wisdom of Master Magnus, all men would be wiser. I might print out his post and staple it to my wall. Or tape it to my armour box.

I know that I will never <i>actually</i> be a spanish grandee from the late 1500's pounding the heathens in the Low Countries. But let not the best be the enemy of the good. I take my cues from those who both excel in the art of combat, and look awesome doing it. I'll get as close as I can, as my skill, time, & budget allow.

I am minded of the apocryphal story of the school demo, attended by a Society knight in 'Society' gear, and a guy in full plate. A kid comes up and says, "I wanna talk to the knight!". The Society knight grins and starts to walk over. The kid points to the full-plate guy and says, "No, the KNIGHT!"

I have always pushed the ideal of great kits. I am so freaking tired of sport armor. I understand if someones economic reasons means they start off slow but when you have knights,counts and dukes who have been in for years that fight in little more than sporting armor...and don't ever make a effort..makes me insane. Our new Crown Prince here in GA is HRH Camric...he and others set the bar..he fights in a full haubrek of chain and sometimes with lamellar to boot. We do have a award here in GA that singles out those with nice kits and improved fighting.

Adair

[olaf haraldson]

We do have a award here in GA that singles out those with nice kits and improved fighting.

Adair

We have a similar award here in the East, called the Kings Order of Excellence. It has been granted to a few worthy folks, at least a couple of whom frequent this board.