Appropriate 15th C. Shield

[Sathanas]

Hey all,

I'm wondering what an appropriate shield would be for SCA sword-and-board combat for a 15th century persona. I'm not looking for spot on accurate, just not glaringly out of place.

Difficulty: I have a bum left wrist, and I'm hesitant to use a buckler, or anything center gripped.

I've found several inspirations over at http://larsdatter.com/painted-shields.htm , unfortunately I don't know enough to be able to tell how these shields were strapped, used, or even how large they were.

[Leopold der Wolf]

Hey all,

I'm wondering what an appropriate shield would be for SCA sword-and-board combat for a 15th century persona. I'm not looking for spot on accurate, just not glaringly out of place.

Difficulty: I have a bum left wrist, and I'm hesitant to use a buckler, or anything center gripped.

I've found several inspirations over at http://larsdatter.com/painted-shields.htm , unfortunately I don't know enough to be able to tell how these shields were strapped, used, or even how large they were.

I've seen some nice pavise shields. If you go through the trouble of making one I doubt people would fault you for using a more comfortable shield strapping. Your health comes first.

I'd recommend for your wrist..get some tough, semi-thick leather and make a sleeve you can slide your forearm through. Then for the handle take a piece of rattan big enough to fit in your hand and attach some leather to the sides and rivet/screw em down. Then just wear a hockey glove or gauntlet.

That way you'll have a nice strong shield strap that wont put alot of strain your wrist because the sleeve/hockey glove(or gauntlet) will trap your arm in the shield so you wont have to worry about your wrist getting tweaked out.

[Sathanas]

Leopold der Wolf

That is very nice, thank you!

Looks workable. The center ridge type pavise looks a bit daunting to construct though - I'll look into it. I think I bookmarked a construction thread for those somewhere...

[GvR]

If strapping the pavise as Leopold suggests, I don't see any usefulness for the tunnel in the center. You COULD just make a large, curved pavise shaped plywood or aluminum shield and attach a piece on the outside to give it the pavise look, then stap as you will. I am considering doing that very thing.

WvK

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I can document most shield shapes to someplace in Europe in the 15th century. Some are more known to be real where as others are going to be more in the range of alegorical reality.

[Sathanas]

I can document most shield shapes to someplace in Europe in the 15th century. Some are more known to be real where as others are going to be more in the range of alegorical reality.

I like the pavise idea so far - its simple, shouldn't look atrocious, and will let me fight. I'm just starting out here.

But looking to the future, something more authentic would be nice. What kind of shields could you place in the context of 1440 - 1470 northern Italy?

[Leopold der Wolf]

Found this for you as well,

http://www.windrosearmoury.com/zc/index ... cts_id=290 If you wanan go the buy route.

WvK's idea is good too, you could just glue/screw on some wood to the front to give it the crease as well to save money. Or if you have an armorurer nearby..pay them to dish the center out for you.

[GvR]

Hey Leopold, I've been watching that Windrose pavise for a long time. It's been "Sold Out" for quite a long time. Johannes had some but they all sold at Gulf Wars and never made it to the web site.

WvK

[Sean Powell]

Hello,
This question is near and dear to my heart and I have been trying to answer it for myself. My 15th C kit is based on the Rene de Anjou manuscript. There are no shields depicted in use however there is a horse chanfron with a miniature ecranche shield on it's forehead. I am operating under the assumption that the shield on the chanfron is contemporary of 'latest design technology' as would have been used for jousting but of reduced scale. It is difficult to establish the exact shape because of of the angle of the illustration but my present sketch is roughly speaking 22-24" tall, 16-17" wide, rectangular with convex top and bottom, slightly concave sides and a lance cut out. I'll be straping it in a speculative manner for mounted combat and discarding the guiege strap while holding the other straps in my shield hand rather then holding the reins.

I do know that center ridge pavise shields were used by infantry of the time so that is probably the most effective melee shield. I only know of them with center grips.

The Gladatoria manuscript does show people 'fencing' with ecranche style bucklers. As I recall they are also fully armored (memory is VERY shaky) and practicing techniques generally fest to be useful in un-armored combat based on other sources. I remain skeptical as to their authenticity... but I will probably build some eventually 'just because'.

Good luck and please keep us posted.

Sean

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While this isn't the best image of one an Italian infantry shield would work well and in a way better as a pavise is intended to be center gripped.
In the center
http://www.wga.hu/art/u/uccello/4battle/3battle.jpg
The large oval is the most frequently seen in art in the period.
Other variations exist as well.

[Gaston de Vieuxchamps]

The Gladatoria manuscript does show people 'fencing' with ecranche style bucklers. As I recall they are also fully armored (memory is VERY shaky) and practicing techniques generally fest to be useful in un-armored combat based on other sources. I remain skeptical as to their authenticity... but I will probably build some eventually 'just because'.

Sean

Why skeptical? Similar images can be found in many places. I suspect the shape was used for it's association with the knightly class and as they were used for foot combat in tournament and duel they gradually got smaller. there are extant shields of similar shape that look too small to useful in the joust.

[Sathanas]

While this isn't the best image of one an Italian infantry shield would work well and in a way better as a pavise is intended to be center gripped.
In the center
http://www.wga.hu/art/u/uccello/4battle/3battle.jpg
The large oval is the most frequently seen in art in the period.
Other variations exist as well.

Now that's nice - a picture of a shield in period and in context clearly meant for war.

From the picture the shields look almost flat... what kind of curvature would one actually have?

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Osprey's Nicopolis (1476?) shows a statue of a Venetian marine using what is essentially a heater shield.

[InsaneIrish]

I do know that center ridge pavise shields were used by infantry of the time so that is probably the most effective melee shield. I only know of them with center grips.

Yep, I have NO evidence at all that Pavises were side strapped in the way shown above. All of them I have seen are center gripped.


Now I do have an image of a wood cut for Maximillian's Triumph that shows Landsknechts with pavise like shields and some of them are side strapped, but no like above:

[Sean Powell]

The Gladatoria manuscript does show people 'fencing' with ecranche style bucklers. As I recall they are also fully armored (memory is VERY shaky) and practicing techniques generally fest to be useful in un-armored combat based on other sources. I remain skeptical as to their authenticity... but I will probably build some eventually 'just because'.

Sean

Why skeptical? Similar images can be found in many places. I suspect the shape was used for it's association with the knightly class and as they were used for foot combat in tournament and duel they gradually got smaller. there are extant shields of similar shape that look too small to useful in the joust.

Well I'm skeptical because I don't personally know of any other sources and I'm skeptical if they actually fenced in full armor in such a fashion or if the artist merely depicted them that way. I believe that the coresponding pictures showing similar techniques in either Lichtenhauer or Tallhoffer (my memory is so bad I'm not sure which one if either it may have been) shows the same techniques in just shirts.

Mostly I'm skeptical because I don't want the poster asking the question to think I know something that I clearly don't know. He should look at the plates themselves talk to people with considerably more experience then I and make his own conclusions.

Sean

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InsaneIrish we are talking about 15th century not 16th.

[InsaneIrish]

InsaneIrish we are talking about 15th century not 16th.

IIRC Maximillian's triumph was commissioned in 1492+/-

So, even though it is super late that is still 15th century.

[Sathanas]

http://www.wga.hu/art/u/uccello/4battle/3battle.jpg

Holy crap.

I just checked out The Condottierri from the library today and there was that picture (well, a section thereof) right there on chapter one.

Had about half a second of strong deja vu there.

[^]

IIRC Maximillian's triumph was commissioned in 1492+/-

So, even though it is super late that is still 15th century.

While it may have been commissioned that early it wasn't finished until 1512.