Avoiding ACL damage in SCA combat?

[Aaron]

Hi,

Given the number of ACL damaged fighters in the SCA, how would any individual fighter avoid this issue?

What do you think damages the ACL the most, given our hobby?

With respect,

-Aaron

[broinnfinn]

Hi,

Given the number of ACL damaged fighters in the SCA, how would any individual fighter avoid this issue?

What do you think damages the ACL the most, given our hobby?

With respect,

-Aaron

Oddly - I managed to avoid it for almost 30 years on good mechanics.

It was the ankle brace immobilization after my broken leg that finally did it to me. Ankles are meant to take torque. Knees aren't.

Bri.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Don't turn your upper body without turning your foot with it.

[Kilkenny]

Hi,

Given the number of ACL damaged fighters in the SCA, how would any individual fighter avoid this issue?

What do you think damages the ACL the most, given our hobby?

With respect,

-Aaron

Heh. Stay out of dojos and martial arts with structured teaching formats
It wasn't SCA where I actually injured my knee, but training in kenpo.

I would say that our biggest risk factor is the percentage of our weekend warriors who really are just weekend warriors, don't take care of themselves physically and then demand peak performance that goes above and beyond what their bodies are capable of.

My knee injury wasn't severe and I rehabbed it through a bit of careful exercise, focused on strengthening the supporting muscles around the knee.

If the average SCA fighter spent some time doing those exercises as preventative maintenance, rather than waiting to do them as repair, we would have fewer knee problems.

All of that said, when you get caught the wrong way in a bridge pileup, no amount of preparation can protect your knees

[mrks]

I got hit with a great sword or glaive low below the knee lames at estrella fighting sword and shield in the melees.

no way to stop it. bang severed it and I "woke up" with people tapping me on the head while I was wriggling around on the ground. limped to the side limes and got golf carted back to camp. spent a few miserable days in camp crawling around and then had a 24 hour trip stretched out in the back of a pickup cab.

by the time that was all experienced hurting and falling down wasnt a big deal and I thought it would get better. it didnt and I had severe atrophy by the time I got it fixed.

a very bad experience... dont try it.

[Owyn]

Good fitness helps a ton. If your leg muscles are strong and well-proportioned, they are less likely they are to allow the ligaments of the knee to shred. That said...my own knee injury occurred while I was in pretty much the best shape of my life. I was AI for an infantry combatives course - was being the "demonstratee" for a hip throw, and the grass was a bit wet, and my boot stuck - body went, foot didn't == lots of pain and six months of swim rehab.

I am of the opinion that good armor helps as well. Think about it - we wear helms of 12-14g steel because the weight actually soaks the kinetic energy of the blow (or rather, the inertia of the helm's mass does). I strongly suspect that heavier knee armor will help in much the same way - the inertia of the mass is greater, reducing the kinetic energy that is able to act on the knee. It's not foolproof, but heavier leg armor will probably reduce joint injuries much more than say, sports plastic knees.

[Hubert]

Go to the gym, do legs.

Not sure if you wanted a more long winded answer than that .

Seriously, there's no way to remove the potential for blowing out your ACL, there are obviously mitigating things you can do. Obviously a good brace will lower the risk, even a decent set of leg armour can add a bracing effect. But that's just one factor, and its hardly foolproof.

An ACL tear happens due to torsion, the twisting effect on the leg as the body doesn't compensate. Its not something you can completely eliminate, without being a statue, as you'll be moving around and you can't compensate for every pitfall, be it a dip in the ground, wet turf, or your opponent.

It takes surprisingly little force to tear a knee ligament. Having torn several, and my ACL twice, I can attest to that.

The best prevention though I would suggest is to get your butt in to the gym, and while its true gals love big arms, ignore your biceps for once and do legs. Building up the musculature in your quads and hamstrings will work with your ligaments to stabilize your knee, making it more unlikely to tear. Also stretch, flexibility will also make it more likely that you will simply flex and possibly sprain what would otherwise be a full tear.

[Hubert]

It was the ankle brace immobilization after my broken leg that finally did it to me. Ankles are meant to take torque. Knees aren't.

Bri.

Yup its a tradeoff. If your ankles won't flex something will. If your ankles and knee won't you'll snap your tibia or fibula. Either way something's going to give .

[Hubert]

I was AI for an infantry combatives course - was being the "demonstratee" for a hip throw, and the grass was a bit wet, and my boot stuck - body went, foot didn't == lots of pain and six months of swim rehab.

Heh that's a pretty similar story to my first ACL tear. Training camp in my junior year, I snapped the ball, came out of my stance on a wet field, my foot grabbed, slid, grabbed and you know the rest. ACL, MCL and LCL all in one, to top if off on my way down, the tackle then hit me, I guess I can say I still made the block .

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Do hindu squats.

To avoid hurting others, don't do these full-run bodychecks that I see nowadays.

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

a buddy of mine (not in the sca, but not a huge guy either) tore his ACL slipping on a cucumber slice.

I am not sure the normalized rate of ACL tears in SCA combat is any greater than that of basketball or soccer.

Found a link on high school ACL injuries:

http://www.training-conditioning.com/2009/05/high_school_acl_injury_rates.html

Without too much *actual* reading, apparently the way to statistically avoid ACL tears is to "be male".

another interesting (although somewhat garbled) link:
http://biomed.brown.edu/Courses/BI108/BI108_2004_Groups/Group06/Group6project/Sports/SACLinjury.htm

[Sextus Maximus]

Tore my ACL, I just run work out and stretch before I fight. I try to be as much warmed up as possible before I start going at it.

[Fearghus Macildubh]

Don't play flag football on astroturf for squadron sports day. Luckily therapy and scar tissue are holding the knee together, but running is an exercise in pain.

[Saritor]

If you take up fencing, take the time to work with someone and learn proper footwork. Too many white scarves ignore this in their teaching in various parts of the world, and it'll catch up with you eventually.

(If you do learn it, make sure you don't get sloppy with it, like I did.)

[shinyhalo]

Ligaments hold bones together. Ligament strenth is determined during your growth phase, most of which occurs until about 18 y/o.
After that, due to poor blood supply ligaments (and tendons) don't "bulk up" like muscles.
So, if you had ideal body weight during your youth and are now overweight, then the amount of torque on those ligaments is going to be more than they grew to expect. Tack on 30-50 pounds of armor and voila, torn ligaments.
I'm close to ideal weight 5'10 and 170 pounds. I exercise a lot. I donned about 30-40 pounds of armor+shield+sword a couple days ago to get my first authorizaion and even I could feel my right knee getting strained.
Frankly, I'm surprised weight isn't specified here more often when a piece of armor or a shield is discussed/sold.
Maybe a post like: Lightest kit that actually still protects you from hematomas.
Anyway, the real solution is to put kids in armor at about age 7...about twice a week and have them fight. They'll grow up to be made more resilient to physical stress.
At 18y/o+ Strengthening the supporting muscles is good, but I think it's only a minor factor. So then the major factor is going to be making your kit as light as possible.

[Milan H]

Im slowly coming to the belief that footwear is a major cause of the injuries. Ive seen lots of this when i played hockey, and inline especially. The skate doesnt rotate, but the rest of the athlete did. Happened to the captain of my college club team... Boom... Knee dislocated, and he still has problems to this day nearly 10 years later. Hes become very good at resetting his knee.

This is an extreme example, but anytime your foot sticks and the rest of you doesnt, something will give and this is usually the knee.

I recommend looking into your shoes and the dynamics of barefoot training. Ive read enough on the subject that im moving to period shoes for fighting to help prevent these very kinds of problems. They slip, true, thats the point

Cheers,

[Gaston de Clermont]

I'm OK with face planting occasionally to avoid tearing an ACL. Turn shoes can also reduce the strain on your ankles since your foot is closer to the ground, and its limited ability to resist lateral force means it will slip before you snap.

[Hartmann]

I am not sure the normalized rate of ACL tears in SCA combat is any greater than that of basketball or soccer.

Perhaps not, but around here soccer is well-known for high injury rates. Being better than soccer is not a very good grade.

[Donald St. Colin]

SCA combat is safe. To avoid knee injury don't chase criminals in the dark. At least my time off from work was paid for.