The Armour Archive

Got tired of the stick with a q-tip called a glaive (see my post in the spring kits) so i tried something new today. Sorry for the crappy pic, best i could get this evening; better tomorrow.

[img]http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/qq305/machkyplr/glaive1.jpg[/img]

Split rattan construction, some flexible epoxy, tape and presto! A new ass kicking device.

Picture doesnt give a good idea on size, but its 7 foot overall with 16 inch head. It balances very well and should be fun to fight with. Im just hoping the head will stay secure, though only time will tell.

Comments are appreciated!

Cheers!

sweet looking.


Val

Milan! That is awesome.

I wants one preciousss....



Please post, pm or email me construction details....

How does it balance?

Thanks!!!

Glaukos[/u]

Awesome! I'd like to second a request for construction details

You gonna stain the haft?

That's really cool. I'd also love to see how you did it so I can shamelessly steal the design to use. >_>

Thirded . . . or was that fourthed the request.

Thanks for sharing.

Cheers,
Steven

Well i thought about doing the photo essay thing but i was going too fast so youll have to bear with me. Warning.... Long post since i didnt take pictures and have to describe this. Also be warned, i havent tested this in combat, so it may just suffer a glorious untimely death... We will see!



Get a stick of rattan about as long as you want the head to be.
Drill a 3/8s hole through the rattan. This acts as a stress relief and will help stop the splitting later on.
Then on the thrusting side of the hole (short side) i wrapped the rattan securely with strapping tape. This too is to keep the rattan from splitting further than the hole.

Next i eyeballed it, and split the long side of the stick with a hammer and chisel. Rattan breaks mostly straight down the grain, so you should be ok splitting it on this short of a length. I did stick the drill bit back into the hole so i had a better reference. I missed a little, but the split did hit the hole.

I then removed about 1/4 inch of material from inside of the split with a chisel and a putty knife. This allowed me to straighten the split up so it was square to the hole i drilled. I smoothed it as best i could with the chisel (you will need a vise to hold the stick, and then jam a piece of wood in the split to hold it open so you can work)

After that, i used a torch to burn the brooming and fuzz out of the split. I wanted a strong bonding surface for the glue. Dont scorch it, just get the fuzz out.

After that with a chisel, rasp and plane, i tapered the end of my rattan stave. I left the end just under 1/2 inch wide, and it tapers up to the diameter of the rattan. This you want to be relatively flat as well. You want this to be fairly long so you can get the rattan to bend down and make contact plus give ample gluing surface. I just forced the rattan head open and laid it on top, marked where i thought it should go and started tapering. Dry test your fit. When satisfied, get several clamps and practice clamping it. The round rattan can be hard to clamp. It shouldnt be difficult to push the rattan down to match up though. If it is, you may need to adjust your taper.

Now get some flexible epoxy. Gorilla glue epoxy is what i used. Its a 5 minute epoxy, so get all your materials, clamps, and mixing station close to you. Mix probably twice as much as their little tray on the package will hold. Mix in something you can throw away. Slather the glue all over the tapered piece of rattan, and quickly stick the head on and clamp. You only want glue on the cut surfaces. Clamp it and let it set for an hour or so. Expect epoxy drips all over the place... Do this over something you dont care about, in clothes you dont care about, with shoes on you dont care about

I removed one clamp, then wrapped the head with a strapping tape to keep it down, Do that for each clamp. (it took four clamps for me to get it clamped securely) I suppose the glue ought to hold, but i was in a hurry and didnt wait as long as i could of. Realistically, i should have waited 24 hours to let the epoxy fully cure.

Clean up the excess epoxy drips from the rattan with your chisel.

Now i started taping with strapping tape. Lots of Xs of tape that hold the head down to the stave. Then spiral wrap the whole thing nice and tight. Do a smooth neat job cause it will be stronger that way.

I didnt like the profile of my head, the point was too long, so i trimmed off a few inches. You may or may not have to do this, but if you do, be careful to leave enough material in front of the hole that it will stay together. I figure 1.5 - 2 inches.

Put on a thrusting tip, cover in your favorite duct and marking tape (i use hockey tape for my tips and cutting edges) and you are done.

Took me about 2 hours including the trip to home depot to do it.

Glaukos. It balances at 40 inches from the point, with an overall length of 84 inches....So 4 inches forward from the middle. The butt spike helps with this im sure.

I wont be staining the haft now because my gauntlets tear the crap out of it. My rattan stave looks like my dog used it as a chew toy, but i will admit im tempted. If the head holds up to combat i may stain it. We will see

Hope thats helpful guys!

Cheers!

awesome work man.

Take a wood rasp/file...gently file away the top layer of the skin. Stain the handle.

Friggin genius.

Mine is going to have a bronze color blade and Sauroter, and a heavy balance weight to bring the POB to the buttspike....

I owe you a beverage of your choice....


Glaukos

Also, I think that once you split the "blade", If you stick in there (temporarily) a little piece of rattan and then steam the whole thing, it will remove the "tension" that would lead to splitting the point, since instead of trying to continue splitting, the side of the blade would be "stabilized" in that bent position by the steaming.

I did that with the blade of my Kopis and the results were quite spectacular in reducing the tension of the rattan splints...


Glaukos

I was going to ask a question about the legality of your laminate construction, but it appears that my memory re: the use of that technique is faulty. I thought the rules stated that there was a max length head was allowed to overlap the haft. I guess not.

From the Society Marshal's Handbook.

3. If the weapon has a head, it shall not be constructed of solely rigid materials. The head shall be firmly and securely attached to the haft. The head shall allow at least 1⁄2 inch (12.7 mm) of progressive give between the striking surface and the weapon haft. Laminated or split rattan construction techniques do not require 1⁄2 inch (12.7 mm) of progressive give, so long as their construction imparts striking characteristics similar to an unpadded weapon constructed of a single piece of rattan.

Looks nice. Have fun w/ it.

Thank you very much!!

I like the idea of steaming the head. You could get some REALLY cool shapes of the head for that. Even a leaf blade if you were patient enough...

The cool thing about this is that you get a real looking head (relatively) without adding a ton of weight. Because the balance is so close to the center, it tells me that i really didnt add much weight to the point. Striking characteristics should be the same as a typical sca Glaive. Removing the material in the middle of the head causes this i think.

Glaukos, I hope this works out for ya, your PM got me thinking about it so i think we owe each other a "beverage of choice!"

Cheers!

Milan,

I was thinking about this right now as I was driving back from my daughter's Karate class.

This is a thrusting weapon. The main thrust is borne by the sloping surfaces of the split head. Every thrust is basically trying to continue splitting the head all the way up. It will eventually happen.

Now all the tape you put there probably means that when it happens it will not be a catastrophic failure (i.e. the shaft free to enter someone's grille at the worst time) but when it does the weapon will become useless until repaired. This is because the thrust is not directly supported by the shaft but though the "partially split" head. Once split the head will go limp.

I think that a safer and more durable way might be to leave the tip of the rattan stick itself to bear the thrusting tip.

Then split the rattan head sides completely.
About 2 inches below the thrusting tip's end (enough to allow full compression) , shave the shaft to flatten it a little on each side and attach the front halves of the head. Shave the top rounded sides of the head as needed.

Now slice a one inch thick slice of rattan. Split it in two. Place each half between the back ends of the "head" and the shaft. This will make the head of the spear triangular by spacing the blade from the shaft.

Flatten whatever needs to be flat in the shaft and pieces with a rasp to achieve a good flat to flat contact.

Glue as you did and tape the crap out of the whole thing.

Now you have the exact same weapon, but the thrust goes straight into the shaft of the spear, with no stress or possible catastrophic failure. And your head can still catch a shield rim with the back of the spear head.

(Am I making sense or just babbling?)

I need to meet Lucas to get the rattan stick I need to build this.
Though I may go crazy and build a little leaf blade like in the Hoplite Dory spear.

Thanks!!!

Glaukos the Athenian

PS: Ancient Greeks used to wrap the grip area of the shaft with string where the hand went. That way you get a better purchase of the weapon with the gripping hand and still slides on the other hand. That may protect at least one area from chafing.

I have seen also fiberglass spears covered with contact vinyl paper to make them look like wood grain. But I am not sure it would work for rattan....

Cheers.

Glaukos

Interesting and i agree with your thoughts and solution.

I feel half tempted to go and see if i can destroy it on the big rock in my yard now.

On the other side, I tend to do a lot of cuts with my pole arms. I may not be visualizing your idea well, but I think more support would be needed. How about something like this?



Gives more beef for striking, better support for thrusting, weakens the rattan a bit but its not likely to be an issue if it were to break since its behind the head and would be taped anyway.

Thoughts?

Milan H wrote:Interesting and i agree with your thoughts and solution.

I feel half tempted to go and see if i can destroy it on the big rock in my yard now.

On the other side, I tend to do a lot of cuts with my pole arms. I may not be visualizing your idea well, but I think more support would be needed. How about something like this?



Gives more beef for striking, better support for thrusting, weakens the rattan a bit but its not likely to be an issue if it were to break since its behind the head and would be taped anyway.

Thoughts?

That is an excellent solution, though a laborious one. Also. will it not weaken the tip of the shaft where you put the relief cuts?
Besides this, it sounds even sturdier than my idea, since the edges of the head now rest on the cuts you made. Clever....

Now take each side of the blade, remove the "barb" in the back, steam it into a curve and place the little piece of 1 inch (here 1/2 might be better) rattan I mentioned before inside the "belly" of each side of the blade...and you get this:

A hoplite Dory

Yeah it will weaken it a bit, but i cant think of any other way to get around the issue. Actually i do have another solution. Round the cuts out, and make the blade pieces match that radius. Still will be weaker than straight rattan, but better than my drawing. In all honesty the shoulder cuts dont have to be very deep... maybe 3/8's of an inch? Just enough to transfer energy back into the shaft. If you wrap the shaft just below the head it ought to cure any splitting problems unless you are going bat sh** crazy with your thrusts and cuts.

Im not too worried about labor, since we are trying to work out a perfect design. If its labor intensive, and makes up for it in durability, safety and oh so fashionable good looks im good with that.

Cheers!

Really good ideas from both of you. I never thought about the split breaking on a thrust either.

Also..hmm..I think I figured out how to make my lady's Spartan spear .

Milan H wrote:Interesting and i agree with your thoughts and solution.

I feel half tempted to go and see if i can destroy it on the big rock in my yard now.

On the other side, I tend to do a lot of cuts with my pole arms. I may not be visualizing your idea well, but I think more support would be needed. How about something like this?



Gives more beef for striking, better support for thrusting, weakens the rattan a bit but its not likely to be an issue if it were to break since its behind the head and would be taped anyway.

Thoughts?

If you search back a couple months Corby did something similiar to this and had it pointed out to him the construction was illegal. Something about the laminated portion being the full length as opposed to 12 inches max or some such thing.

Angusm0628 wrote: If you search back a couple months Corby did something similiar to this and had it pointed out to him the construction was illegal. Something about the laminated portion being the full length as opposed to 12 inches max or some such thing.

From the Society Marshal's Handbook (some Kingdoms may have stricter rules, but these are the minimums):
[quote]Laminated rattan: Two pieces of rattan, each being at least 1¼ inch (31.8mm) in diameter, attached to one another with a short overlap by tape or other method of binding. Maximum length of the overlap shall be 18â€

Owyn wrote:

Angusm0628 wrote: If you search back a couple months Corby did something similiar to this and had it pointed out to him the construction was illegal. Something about the laminated portion being the full length as opposed to 12 inches max or some such thing.

From the Society Marshal's Handbook (some Kingdoms may have stricter rules, but these are the minimums):
[quote]Laminated rattan: Two pieces of rattan, each being at least 1¼ inch (31.8mm) in diameter, attached to one another with a short overlap by tape or other method of binding. Maximum length of the overlap shall be 18â€

I got a PM with this tidbit from the glossary (Who reads the freaking glossary! )

Just a sprinkle on the parade so far. Ill probably contact my KEM, and see what he has to say. My original design may be still legal but im not sure till i measure it... Ought to be fun through the tape

Thanks guys!

Ok as long as the measurements are good the only problem I see is here however the rules are VERY ambiguous.

Note that use of glues, epoxies, or adhesives, which substantially reduce the flexibility of the rattan, is prohibited.

Seriously what constitutes substantially reducing? From your OP you pointed out you used a "flexible" epoxy that gives. So if anything it shouldn't affect that. Again ask your KEM, but the language in our rules really is pretty wierd IMO.

I can only assume it was worded this way in order to allow for the judgment of local marshals?

*bolding is mine*

The flexibility of rattan is why its safe for us to use. My guess is they want top make sure the rattan wills till bend/bounce like a normal 2 hander would. If you can convince the marshal it does then I dont see why it'd be illegal.

Proxus wrote:Ok as long as the measurements are good the only problem I see is here however the rules are VERY ambiguous.

Note that use of glues, epoxies, or adhesives, which substantially reduce the flexibility of the rattan, is prohibited.

Seriously what constitutes substantially reducing? From your OP you pointed out you used a "flexible" epoxy that gives. So if anything it shouldn't affect that. Again ask your KEM, but the language in our rules really is pretty wierd IMO.

I can only assume it was worded this way in order to allow for the judgment of local marshals?

*bolding is mine*

Literally read, this is not unclear at all.

"Note that use of glues, epoxies, or adhesives, which substantially reduce the flexibility of the rattan, is prohibited." - this means that glues etc. DO reduce the flexibility of the rattan, and are therefore prohibited.

If it was rewritten thus:
"Note that use of glues, epoxies, or adhesives which substantially reduce the flexibility of the rattan is prohibited." - then it would mean that only the use of glues etc. which reduce the flexibility are prohibited. The commas change the meaning of the sentence entirely. Read it out loud, you'll see what I mean.

That said, I would *definitely* check on that with your KEM, as they may have a different read on the subject. It would certainly not be the first time that bad grammar made someone write something they didn't mean, either! Also keep in mind that a borderline weapon like that may cause you issues down the road.

Owyn wrote:Also keep in mind that a borderline weapon like that may cause you issues down the road.

This is the bit that would be my concern. Since the judgment of the marshallate is entirely subjective, not to mention inconsistent from one marshal to the next, it would rather suck to make a weapon that passes muster with any marshals that you have in your area, but then have it bounced by somebody else later on.

That's the chance that you're gonna be taking when you make any weapon that is not a clear cut text book example of whatever is written in the rules. If there's any variance at all, or room for subjective judgment, somebody somewhere will probably bounce it eventually, if only just so that they don't have to be the one responsible if questions are asked later on.

Well i talked with my KEM, and he said he would be happy to look at it during our next crown event. I cant speak for the KEM, but i felt good about the correspondence i had with him

Id say talk with your KEMs if this is important to you, and let them take up the interpretation of the rules. I see the rules as written as vague and nonsensical but i will follow them, however i will be talking with my KEM about it some more. I think its a problem, and needs to be addressed at a higher level.


Edit: As for the rules as written, i think we need to recognize the spirit of the rules as opposed to the letter of the rules. There are certainly other grammatical mistakes in the marshals handbook, so does that mean we have to reinterpret their meaning as well? I think the idea behind the rule is clear and consistent with similar entries on the topic. Make sure you aren't making the striking surface too stiff. By no means is the following meant in any disrespect but as a point....To say that the use of glue epoxies or adhesives in prohibited because they stiffen the rattan would also forbid the use of TAPE since it isnt static cling. How literal should we get?

Cheers!

Milan H wrote:Edit: As for the rules as written, i think we need to recognize the spirit of the rules as opposed to the letter of the rules. There are certainly other grammatical mistakes in the marshals handbook, so does that mean we have to reinterpret their meaning as well? I think the idea behind the rule is clear and consistent with similar entries on the topic. Make sure you aren't making the striking surface too stiff. By no means is the following meant in any disrespect but as a point....To say that the use of glue epoxies or adhesives in prohibited because they stiffen the rattan would also forbid the use of TAPE since it isnt static cling. How literal should we get?

Not disagreeing! But in a situation where a marshal has to judge a weapon that's on the edge, they may well rule on the side of caution, with a literal interpretation of the rules - and rightly so, since they are trying to protect the safety of everyone there.