The Armour Archive

Hey all, tonight I had a small practice against my peanut shield, long sword weilding friend Alexander. Alexander beat the bejesus out of me when I did Florentine.

I've only done florentine once or twice and decided to do it tonight (after talking about how no one in our shire does it). About 15 nice blows in the bicep/shoulder/forearm/tricep later I realized I need to learn some techniques.

How do you do it? Blade size? Technique? Defense? etc please . I was fighting with two 28 inch swords with stabbys on the end using a strong side forward/weak side back with one sword held up high and one low.

-Very sincerely
-Leopold

I find with florentine that if you swing at the other guy, and swing at open shots with each recovery you will win at minimum 50% of the time.

I have no set two weapon form. However, from just launching attacks at the opponent I get a fair amount of wins. If you wait for them to attack and lose the advantage it's far harder to get a clean unscathed win.

I can say how *I* do it, but there's a number of different ways to fight this style. I'm fairly ambidextrous; I can fight S&S almost equally with either hand. So when I engage with paired swords, I work them a bit like you'd see someone fighting with two escrima sticks. Both swords are in constant motion, both swords are constantly on the attack, often from multiple angles at the same time.

Your swords might be a bit short. My current swords are two lengths, actually; one is about 28" (left sword) and the other is around 36" or so. I'm not really convinced that's optimal, but it's working and it's what I have handy right now. If 28" is the longest you can control very well in your offhand, then that's your best bet.

I fight both swords forward like an A frame with the top open. That said, once I engage the swords are *never* both in that position - they're always in motion, either attacking or defending.

I fight this style very aggressively. Really, that's my biggest weakness with it, too - my fitness level is not *quite* strong enough to maintain a pulse of continuous attacks for as long as I need vs better fighters.

Consider taking some video of your next practice, if you can. Getting a video critique from some of the more experienced two-sword fighters (not me) here would be incredibly valuable, I'd think.

I am primarily a two sword fighter. Two long swords. I teach the use of swords as long as the fighter can handle, with a maximum length that will clear the ground on a free return (that's the recovery where the arm drops, letting the sword swing down and using that energy to swing it back up to the guard again). When your arm is by your side and palm facing forward, the sword should just clear the ground.

I use loads of guards, but I've been doing this well over thirty years

The basic guard in my school has both sword hilts at about shoulder height and forward of the shoulders, blades angled back past your ears. This is a very offensive posture, as you are ready to strike with either hand. Feet are not squared off but shoulders are. Either leg can lead.
Here's an important detail about positioning of the hands - you need to keep your wrists cocked slightly outward. This changes the effective area of your guard by an amazing amount.

One of the guiding principles for this style is that if it moves, you hit it .

Blocks are not made passively, they are made by striking the opponent's weapon.

It is better to hit the other fighter than to make a block - if he's going to hit your leg and you can hit his head, make that trade. If he's going to hit your arm, but you strike at his head instead of letting your arm sit there, you can get your arm out of the target zone and hit him in the same motion.

Control range - which does not mean always stay outside, it means you decide how far away to be and you control that part of the game.

Lateral motion, don't just run straight backwards.

I don't recommend holding one sword out in front where you can't hit with it and they can beat it aside. I don't recommend holding one sword high and one sword low - there are some nice techniques that use such guards, but I consider them advanced.

Attack with both hands, but not both at once. Have rhythm, but not a predictable pattern. Try to make each attack cross the plane of the one before (this is hard to describe and easy to demonstrate). If I throw a vertical shot with my right hand, my left will be a horizontal shot to close the opening made by swinging the right.

When you block the opponent's blade with one sword, attack the opening where their sword came out. For them to swing, there has to be a hole for their sword to come out - you can use that hole to get to them. I call this "sword tracking". It's a very valuable skill to learn.

Don't fight sword and skinny shield Too many people use one sword just for blocking and the other does all of their offense. Swords make lousy shields. Use the swords to hit with, that's what they're for.

That should be enough to overload you for awhile

Thanks for all the advice guys!

Some nice tips in there for me to snag, too. Thank you, Your Grace.

Is that Alexander Rymer/Stu?

Don't let him pull that "I don't know what I'm doing then suddenly snap-to and blast you" trick.

As for florentine-- I'd advise getting pretty good with a shield first, but hey, it's your hobby





Learn to deal with pain

Gavin, Any tips on training to be ambidextrous? Or is this something you are born with?

Kilkenny wrote:I am primarily a two sword fighter. Two long swords. I teach the use of swords as long as the fighter can handle, with a maximum length that will clear the ground on a free return (that's the recovery where the arm drops, letting the sword swing down and using that energy to swing it back up to the guard again). When your arm is by your side and palm facing forward, the sword should just clear the ground.

I use loads of guards, but I've been doing this well over thirty years

The basic guard in my school has both sword hilts at about shoulder height and forward of the shoulders, blades angled back past your ears. This is a very offensive posture, as you are ready to strike with either hand. Feet are not squared off but shoulders are. Either leg can lead.
Here's an important detail about positioning of the hands - you need to keep your wrists cocked slightly outward. This changes the effective area of your guard by an amazing amount.

One of the guiding principles for this style is that if it moves, you hit it .

Blocks are not made passively, they are made by striking the opponent's weapon.

It is better to hit the other fighter than to make a block - if he's going to hit your leg and you can hit his head, make that trade. If he's going to hit your arm, but you strike at his head instead of letting your arm sit there, you can get your arm out of the target zone and hit him in the same motion.

Control range - which does not mean always stay outside, it means you decide how far away to be and you control that part of the game.

Lateral motion, don't just run straight backwards.

I don't recommend holding one sword out in front where you can't hit with it and they can beat it aside. I don't recommend holding one sword high and one sword low - there are some nice techniques that use such guards, but I consider them advanced.

Attack with both hands, but not both at once. Have rhythm, but not a predictable pattern. Try to make each attack cross the plane of the one before (this is hard to describe and easy to demonstrate). If I throw a vertical shot with my right hand, my left will be a horizontal shot to close the opening made by swinging the right.

When you block the opponent's blade with one sword, attack the opening where their sword came out. For them to swing, there has to be a hole for their sword to come out - you can use that hole to get to them. I call this "sword tracking". It's a very valuable skill to learn.

Don't fight sword and skinny shield Too many people use one sword just for blocking and the other does all of their offense. Swords make lousy shields. Use the swords to hit with, that's what they're for.

That should be enough to overload you for awhile

That'll indeed be something sit and ponder over with Mr. Pell. Luckily he does not hit back too hard. Thanks man

My first time fighting outside my shire I was forced to do it florentine due to a lack of equipment. I am naturally a passive fighter in that I like to defend and exploit openings. One move I've found that works well for me I call a "rock-step". It works well against horizontal strikes and uses the sword tracking technique described earlier. I'm left handed so this is a little easier for me. Your sword and board opponent throws a flat snap at you. You are starting with you left foot forward. Step back with your left foot and twist your body to bring your right sword across and block the shot. As soon as the shot is successfully blocked step forward at a diagonal with the left foot throwing a shot of your choice. I prefer to throw a rising shot into ribcage or lower side as the most natural 2nd shot for your opponent to throw is to the right side which often involves lifting the arm and makes a nice juicy hole. Make sure to step fairly deep and quick so the shield cannot be brought across to block.

If it is timed right you should be acting as he pulls his sword back to throw the second shot. Make sure to move the right sword in a way to protect yourself from his second shot.

note this is the advice of a novice who can count the times he has fought two weapons on one hand. I successfully killed a very good squire in my first tourney with this. The only evidence I have to go on is that everything about the action felt right.

BobKnight wrote:Gavin, Any tips on training to be ambidextrous? Or is this something you are born with?

Being of the similar vein, I will say it is (to me) something you are born with.

Also, I was a drummer for MANY years, playing primarily heavy metal and hard rock. This helped a lot in training my "off" hand to do stuff independently of my main one.

The initial tendency for handedness seems to be something you're born with, or which develops very early.

That said, we have many examples of people who have lost the use of a primary arm, and developed the secondary arm to a very fine level of motor control. Or folks who, like our drummer above, have taught their body a high level of dual use for specific tasks.

Really, the main thing required is lots and LOTS of practice. You need to do some neuronal rewiring, build new pathways for the connections in your brain. That takes time, and takes your body chemistry realizing this is a priority to accomplish, which happens when you do a lot of it.

So if you want to fight well with your left hand, fight with your left hand. It will come faster for some than for others, but that's the way.

BobKnight wrote:Gavin, Any tips on training to be ambidextrous? Or is this something you are born with?

I'm distinctly right hand dominant. I think being really ambidextrous would be a disadvantage for two sword. True ambidextrosity means both hands are equal in all things and the person constantly has to decide which hand to use. Deciding slows you down

There are a couple of things that can help in getting your off hand up to a useful level. Juggling, for one. It forces both hands to work together but not in quite the same way and it improves hand eye coordination. One fellow I know would do pell work where he ran around the pell throwing one shot with the left hand continuously, while he went through all of his repertoire with his right hand. That training conditioned his left hand to throw that one shot, no matter what else was happening. He took lots of legs because of it

I'm a terrible juggler, but I use a koosh ball for a similar effect. The exercise begins with one hand by your ear, arm cocked, the other extended holding the koosh at eye level. Let it go, pull that hand back while the other catches the ball and releases it again at eye level. Do this as fast as you possibly can. When you start catching the ball a hundred times in a row, add footwork. You will look pretty silly running around your living room catching the funny little ball, but your hand speed will improve.

deflagratio wrote:My first time fighting outside my shire I was forced to do it florentine due to a lack of equipment. I am naturally a passive fighter in that I like to defend and exploit openings. One move I've found that works well for me I call a "rock-step". It works well against horizontal strikes and uses the sword tracking technique described earlier. I'm left handed so this is a little easier for me. Your sword and board opponent throws a flat snap at you. You are starting with you left foot forward. Step back with your left foot and twist your body to bring your right sword across and block the shot. As soon as the shot is successfully blocked step forward at a diagonal with the left foot throwing a shot of your choice. I prefer to throw a rising shot into ribcage or lower side as the most natural 2nd shot for your opponent to throw is to the right side which often involves lifting the arm and makes a nice juicy hole. Make sure to step fairly deep and quick so the shield cannot be brought across to block.

If it is timed right you should be acting as he pulls his sword back to throw the second shot. Make sure to move the right sword in a way to protect yourself from his second shot.

note this is the advice of a novice who can count the times he has fought two weapons on one hand. I successfully killed a very good squire in my first tourney with this. The only evidence I have to go on is that everything about the action felt right.

This is actually excellent advice and solid technique. You are using one hand to block, with good body mechanics and movement to both help the block happen and help get out of the way of the attack. The motion to make the block is also loading the attack with the other hand.

The concept that every block simultaneously sets up the other hand for the next attack is a fundamental for fighting two sword effectively.

This is something that drives me crazy. I love to watch a florentine fighter (a good one anyway) but I admit I absolutely suck at fighting them. I am routinely getting whipped in practice. My system for fighting them is to sit back and wait for the opening, attempting to create them if I have to.

When I decide that I am going to win one fight I can do it but that's just by surprising the guy and eventually he'll learn my body movements and shot selection. I'm basically being a cheese-ball and holding this back in case I pull him in a tourney.

But I don't want that to be the case. Any thoughts in how to successfully take a decent two-stick fighter?

Honestly, I fight them so rarely I tend not to worry about it but for the last two weeks this guy has been at practice going two stick and it's not going so well for me.

edited to add: I'm not looking for the 'super shot' as I don't think it exists. I'm hoping that some fighters have experience in it and can explain some concepts. I know the basic ones: "if he throws two shots that you can block with one sword, counter and kill," and "if you can cross his swords, press and kill" and "if you can pull one sword into a bad position, counter and kill" but they only work if you are good enough to pull them into a bad position or they aren't that good at two-sticking which usually isn't the case (in my very limited experience).

When I used to fight two-sword, I used swords of equal length. I'd essentially do saber-style fencing with the forward hand, and bring the back hand in at opportune moments for quick hard blows. You need a fair amount of wrist strength for that to work.

Cisco wrote:This is something that drives me crazy. I love to watch a florentine fighter (a good one anyway) but I admit I absolutely suck at fighting them. Someone with (in my opinion) not as much skill as I possess routinely whips my ass at practice. My system for fighting them is to sit back and wait for the opening, attempting to create them if I have to.

When I decide that I am going to win one fight I can do it but that's just by surprising the guy and eventually he'll learn my body movements and shot selection. I'm basically being a cheese-ball and holding this back in case I pull him in a tourney.

But I don't want that to be the case. Any thoughts in how to successfully take a decent two-stick fighter?

Honestly, I fight them so rarely I tend not to worry about it but for the last two weeks this guy has been at practice going two stick and it's not going so well for me.

edited to add: I'm not looking for the 'super shot' as I don't think it exists. I'm hoping that some fighters have experience in it and can explain some concepts. I know the basic ones: "if he throws two shots that you can block with one sword, counter and kill," and "if you can cross his swords, press and kill" and "if you can pull one sword into a bad position, counter and kill" but they only work if you are good enough to pull them into a bad position or they aren't that good at two-sticking which usually isn't the case (in my very limited experience).

All of the answers "only work if you are good enough..." - therefor, the trick becomes not to have a trick, but to be good enough

Here are some guidelines.

If your opponent likes a guard with one sword forward and down, generally using this to guard against low and midline attacks, you can largely ignore that sword as a threat - except for thrusting. For him to strike with that sword, he has to pull it back, he can't just swing from that forward and low position. That guard isn't very effective at protecting his head - you can blow right through the upper portion of his sword and land a good head shot. A fake toward the leg that turns into a headshot can be effective as it freezes the sword for a moment. Timing your attack to coincide with his throwing the high hand can insure that he won't block with the other sword.

You need to parry and riposte, whatever guard your opponent is using, whatever the rhythm of their attacks. You have to attack off of your parry.

Most two sword fighters (like most fighters period) are better at blocking their heads than anything else. Shots that look like they are going to the head but actually hit the shoulder or body can be very effective. This is especially useful to remember against an opponent who uses an A-frame guard with two swords. He believes his head is well protected in his guard. He is not wrong. But you can use this against him by throwing shots that appear to be straight down head shots but are actually targeted to go beneath his guard and strike the chest.

Two sword fighters tend to be either interior line or exterior line fighters. That is, most of their offense will either be in tight, working slots and down the center, or outside, working wide angles and wraps. Better two sword fighters (like better fighters in general) change this up and are hard to categorize. If your opponent is primarily attacking an inside line, you won't have much success attacking him on the inside - too crowded in there. If he's using primarily an outside line, it should create openings down the center for your offense.

If the opponent is one of those two swords who jumps in your shorts throwing a barrage of blows and basically relying on an overwhelming offense, don't step back. He wants you on the defensive, moving backward and unable to throw effective shots. Instead, when he jumps in, step forward, into one of his swords. Jam that side. If you went to your weapon side, wrap him to the body/back. If you went to your shield side, use a short stroke into the collarbone/trapezius.

If the opponent is one who waits for you to chase them - Don't. Walk after, but don't run - they want you running after them, it's a trap.

I find myself doing better against the ones that want to play inside or outside. It's the ones that don't have an easy-to-see pattern that mess me up.

I'll try to use some of these tactics. It seems like parts of what you are saying is to learn to read them better and then use their tactics against them (like any intelligent fighter should be doing anyway). I think I simply need to fight them more often to learn everything.

Part of the problem is probably that I simply don't fight them very often. I should seek them out and simply accept that it's not as fun a fight for me.

Thanks Your Grace. I appreciate the tactics.

My husband is an excellent two sword fighter. He fights like Gavin describes - long swords that do not touch ground when freely swung, point back, hilt forward, ready to throw. He is a tall lefty, so usually crossblocks a lot. He will often crossblock the first shot before going into a flurry. He fights both inside and outside, using long strides he will step to the outside for a long wrap if the opponent gets sucked into thinking he's just an inside fighter. He uses his opponent's shields when possible - to hide blows coming into them and to move such that their shields become part of his defense.

He might occasionally block with both swords if fighting two swords against great weapons or longswords, but he does not start from that static sword in front position. He never lets the swords rest in positions where he cannot immediately throw a blow without repositioning. He typically does extremely well against longsword and greatsword. What I usually see him do is block and move inside or around them very quickly with the blocking sword remaining on their weapon to help control and move it. Of course if they are halfswording, he tends snipe until they change back, which in his case is usually out of their range, but inside his, because of his freakishly long reach.

I totally suck at two sword, but I watch a lot.

Kilkenny wrote:...The basic guard in my school has both sword hilts at about shoulder height and forward of the shoulders, blades angled back past your ears. This is a very offensive posture, as you are ready to strike with either hand. Feet are not squared off but shoulders are. Either leg can lead...

FrauHirsch wrote:...He fights like Gavin describes - long swords that do not touch ground when freely swung, point back, hilt forward, ready to throw...

My edits.

If I am envisioning this correctly, the body weight seems to be directly over the front foot, hips back, head slightly forward, swords diagonally about 18 inches away from each cheek, and the fighter in a slight crouch with shoulders hunched.

Is that about right? Are the swords making an A (not A-frame, obviously, but almost 45 degrees) or are they straight up?

Any videos or photos by any chance?

Kilkenny wrote:

BobKnight wrote:Gavin, Any tips on training to be ambidextrous? Or is this something you are born with?

I'm distinctly right hand dominant. I think being really ambidextrous would be a disadvantage for two sword. True ambidextrosity means both hands are equal in all things and the person constantly has to decide which hand to use. Deciding slows you down

Ambidextrous here, and primarily a two-sworder. I don't find that I have any significant "lag time" in my decision-making process in combat, but I've been doing it a very long time. I'm trying to recall if I had a greater degree of difficulty making rapid decisions with two-sword back when I was learning than I did with everything else. Beginners have to think about everything, so it's hard to recollect.

I am very point-oriented in my style; I also do rapier and cut-and-thrust. I only occasionally have either of my swords "cocked" (hilt forward, blade to the rear) when engaging an opponent. I lead with my right hand (against right-handed shieldmen and most other opponents), and that sword is held a bit higher than the left. Both have the points tilted upwards at the opponent's face, which gets their attention and can help disguise the measure. They very frequently will try to bat the blade out of the way, but that's not necessarily a good idea for them; multiple nasty responses are available to that.

I get about 70% of my kills with the point against shieldmen. About half of those, at minimum, are with the left hand, usually with a stop-thrust as they attempt to advance after blocking a "red herring" snap thrust at their eyes with the right-hand sword. Of course, you have to make sure your right-hand cross block is basically automatic for that to work, as they invariably step in swinging!

Learning to form a "box" defense (like an escrima fighter) seems to be key in staying alive when a sheildman has closed measure on you. I also use swords that just brush the ground if I let my hand fall, as this seems to retain decent maneuverability in the close and good cutting feel while still having enough range for the point work that gets most of my kills. If the box works and I stop their first combo, I can usually either regain a longer measure with footwork or establish a "sticky blade" situation on their sword (with my left hand weapon, if their right handed) which often leads to opportunities with the right. If the box doesn't work, well...better luck next time!

If I had one suggestion to make to the OP, it would be footwork, footwork, footwork! It's important in all weapon styles, but critical for the two-sworder. You must be able to control (or at least influence) the measure at which the fight takes place.

Keep at it, OP...it's a deadly style.

One of the lessons that John the Mad Celt taught me (repeatedly) was to not let my elbows drift too far from your side, because they make good targets. Also -- and it seems like every beginning two-sticker does this -- not to leave a vertical slot between the two swords, leading directly to your head.

Cisco -- I need a break from greatsword. Next Owls Nest practice, I'll bring two sticks.

And whoever mentioned juggling -- right on to that. It actually helps. (I only do the most basic stuff, but it's still fun.)

Cisco wrote:

Kilkenny wrote:...The basic guard in my school has both sword hilts at about shoulder height and forward of the shoulders, blades angled back past your ears. This is a very offensive posture, as you are ready to strike with either hand. Feet are not squared off but shoulders are. Either leg can lead...

FrauHirsch wrote:...He fights like Gavin describes - long swords that do not touch ground when freely swung, point back, hilt forward, ready to throw...

My edits.

If I am envisioning this correctly, the body weight seems to be directly over the front foot, hips back, head slightly forward, swords diagonally about 18 inches away from each cheek, and the fighter in a slight crouch with shoulders hunched.

Is that about right? Are the swords making an A (not A-frame, obviously, but almost 45 degrees) or are they straight up?

Any videos or photos by any chance?

My husband fights with a fairly open stance, with one foot slightly forward, but not very far. weight centered over his feet so he can move easily any direction, but the weight is definitely not over his front foot.

I don't think my husbands sword hilts are that far apart, they are only about 10 -12" from each cheek, often with the blade almost resting on his shoulders.

His head is never forward -(he would joke "remove the pillow, Grasshopper"). His shoulders are not hunched, but almost pulled back, as he gets power from pulling his shoulders forward. Elbows are often out to the side as well, not staight forward, so its not a 'boxing' stance exactly.

I'm not sure if there are videos, might be able to check for them next week. We are packing for war tonight though... I seem to recall Count Balin of Tor and Duke Radnor of Gyldemar in similar two sword stances as well. If you could find any of the Westie Knights fighting two sword on utube, it would be good to watch.

Movement is key like Dafydd described, but it also requires really excellent targeting and speed to pick up the high speed blocks, which are typically what you loose if you are not practicing often enough. My husband is one of the few Caidan Knights that fought two sword for many years as his primary form, but lately he's going S&S more lately - it requires less practice .

I once saw a Meridian Knight with japanese armour who fought with katana and wachawasi (can't remember how to spell the shorter sword). Against shields he would hold the katana (which had a thrusting tip) low with the tip towards the opponent. The other sword would block and throw shots while the katana sneaked around below the oppenents vision searching for a thrusting opening.

Kilkenny I have a question about your footwork in a very common situation. Situation: A sword and board opponent charges you attempting close and either trap one of your swords or drive you back. What is your response?

Cisco wrote:This is something that drives me crazy. I love to watch a florentine fighter (a good one anyway) but I admit I absolutely suck at fighting them. Someone with (in my opinion) not as much skill as I possess routinely whips my ass at practice. My system for fighting them is to sit back and wait for the opening, attempting to create them if I have to.

When I decide that I am going to win one fight I can do it but that's just by surprising the guy and eventually he'll learn my body movements and shot selection. I'm basically being a cheese-ball and holding this back in case I pull him in a tourney.

But I don't want that to be the case. Any thoughts in how to successfully take a decent two-stick fighter?

Honestly, I fight them so rarely I tend not to worry about it but for the last two weeks this guy has been at practice going two stick and it's not going so well for me.

edited to add: I'm not looking for the 'super shot' as I don't think it exists. I'm hoping that some fighters have experience in it and can explain some concepts. I know the basic ones: "if he throws two shots that you can block with one sword, counter and kill," and "if you can cross his swords, press and kill" and "if you can pull one sword into a bad position, counter and kill" but they only work if you are good enough to pull them into a bad position or they aren't that good at two-sticking which usually isn't the case (in my very limited experience).

One move I used is to use a backhand to snap one of their swords to the side then quickly stab them in the face plate with the same sword.

Cisco wrote:

Kilkenny wrote:...The basic guard in my school has both sword hilts at about shoulder height and forward of the shoulders, blades angled back past your ears. This is a very offensive posture, as you are ready to strike with either hand. Feet are not squared off but shoulders are. Either leg can lead...

FrauHirsch wrote:...He fights like Gavin describes - long swords that do not touch ground when freely swung, point back, hilt forward, ready to throw...

My edits.

If I am envisioning this correctly, the body weight seems to be directly over the front foot, hips back, head slightly forward, swords diagonally about 18 inches away from each cheek, and the fighter in a slight crouch with shoulders hunched.

Is that about right? Are the swords making an A (not A-frame, obviously, but almost 45 degrees) or are they straight up?

Any videos or photos by any chance?

In my case, the stance is actually very upright (I'm often surprised by photos or video because I *think* I'm much more flexed in the legs than I appear to be). Center of gravity is a bit forward, head upright, shoulders relaxed.

My blades are supposed to be angled back over my shoulders with a slight cant inward - 10-15 degrees ?. Most of the inward cant comes from cocking the wrist.

I don't have any images

Adriano wrote:One of the lessons that John the Mad Celt taught me (repeatedly) was to not let my elbows drift too far from your side, because they make good targets. Also -- and it seems like every beginning two-sticker does this -- not to leave a vertical slot between the two swords, leading directly to your head.

Cisco -- I need a break from greatsword. Next Owls Nest practice, I'll bring two sticks.

And whoever mentioned juggling -- right on to that. It actually helps. (I only do the most basic stuff, but it's still fun.)

Chicken wing BAD . The simplest and most fundamentally correct cure is to keep your wrists cocked outward in the correct fashion. You can't cock your wrists properly and stick your elbows out.

Same thing prevents holding the blades in full vertical

deflagratio wrote:Kilkenny I have a question about your footwork in a very common situation. Situation: A sword and board opponent charges you attempting close and either trap one of your swords or drive you back. What is your response?

If I might jump in on that one:

Most S&S fighters will attempt that very thing at least a time or two. Your footwork depends on a number of factors. If you're holding him "on point," which is how I usually fight, you'll have a full stride between you as he begins his charge. If he's right-handed and attempting to use his shield to bind your blade (or blades), he will almost always be leading with his left foot. He'll also be moving quickly, and will have a good bit of momentum right from the start. This is the key. You can make a quick step to your right and slightly forward (this is critical) around the point at which his left foot will be planted. Basically, you're shearing off to your right, away from his blade, in a direction his footwork and momentum will make it difficult for him to adjust to. Your right-hand sword will very likely be cleared from his shield, freeing it for a wrap or a "horseman's parry" if he's throwing a wrap of his own. Continue your movement with another long step, turning back to your opponent, but back at your optimal range for point work.

If, however, you're using a stance with your swords "cocked" for edge work, your opponent will likely be initiating his charge from a position a bit closer to you. If he hasn't caught you completely by surprise, you may be able to make a quick reverse and get out of range...but that's pretty risky. I find it better to take a half step forward, combined with a slight counterclockwise pivot of your hips and shoulders. At the same time, get into your "A" or box defensive guard as best you can (depending on how bound up one or both of your blades have become). Closing range will often mess up the shot he had in mind, frequently a wrap: if it hits you, it will be too far down his blade, towards the hilt, and have no force. If you can throw a wrap with your left hand, there's a good chance he'll be wide open for it. Footwork-wise, this is a subtle half-step forward with the right foot, allowing that counterclockwise pivot.

Obviously this all changes or one of the other of you is left-handed. But that's perhaps a matter for another post.

I hoe some of this is useful. I realize my two-sword style is somewhat unusual (very point-focused), but a lot of the footwork is still applicable (and it's kinda my specialty).

deflagratio wrote:I once saw a Meridian Knight with japanese armour who fought with katana and wachawasi (can't remember how to spell the shorter sword). Against shields he would hold the katana (which had a thrusting tip) low with the tip towards the opponent. The other sword would block and throw shots while the katana sneaked around below the oppenents vision searching for a thrusting opening.

Kilkenny I have a question about your footwork in a very common situation. Situation: A sword and board opponent charges you attempting close and either trap one of your swords or drive you back. What is your response?

It depends upon the opponent. I've been known to do everything from run backward to countercharge (stopping them in their tracks while I wrap them to the back with both hands) to side-stepping like a toreador and cracking them across the back of the head on the pass.

I've even got a signature guard for use against shieldmen who feel the need to rush. I drop one sword low and across my body, the other one stays high, blade over my head. As they rush, the low hand (which is always the one on their shield side) sweeps across, my hilt looking to catch their shield and rip their guard open. The pivot continues and the low hand will get a kill to the body a fair portion of the time, even while ripping the shield. The high hand looks for a chance to bring down the thunder

I say "signature" because it's uniquely mine enough that the lion on my device is in that specific guard.

But the answer depends very much on the opponent. People who make a well controlled rush are my most difficult opponents. People who charge are pretty readily disposed of by several methods.

Dafydd, I think my husband does exactly what you describe, but tends to vear to his left. He might shear off to either side, but more often steps to the left, cross blocks any blow swung and then follows with a deep left hand wrap or a flurry. He occasionally thrusts as well, but is not focused on point work.

Earl Dafydd, between us they're getting a pretty thorough dissertation

Having grown up in a kingdom with no face thrusting, my style was exclusively cut oriented for many years. I couldn't even keep thrusting tips on my swords - too much shear from cutting near the tips.

The footwork advice tends to be valid whether you're cutting or thrusting, with some possible allowances, as you've noted, for a bit more range in the thrusting game.

I have recently been training two stick more in an attempt to not only be able to "do it" better but to defeat it more effectively so this post has been full of some really good information.

I happen to have two really good two stick fighters that I can work with, one is in the same town, and I am taking advantage of that as often as I can. It has been a bit humbling but I am enjoying the experience and might even fight two sword in a tournament in the near future.

One thing I wanted to ask about is the following. I used to not have as hard of a time against two stick fighters but noticed the better I was getting at fighting SS, not against but using that style myself, the "crappier" I got against two stickers. Anyone else have this issue? Might be that I am starting to use a SS filter in my brain while facing other fighters but it is what caused me to refocus my efforts on two stick. Unlike some of the others who have mentioned they do not face them very often I get to face them in just about every tournament. So I guess I will either learn or get bruised.

Again great thread and thank you to everyone who has posted.

Take care and be well,
Brogan.

Cisco wrote:Any thoughts in how to successfully take a decent two-stick fighter?

As a "sorta" two stick fighter that has fought you several times, I'll tell you what shot works almost every time against us.

Straight down the middle, between the two weapons, to the chest or belly.

Here's a video at one of our practices from last year. In one of the fights, I'm going two-weapon against Baron Borgar from South Downs. That's pretty typical of my "style" , such as it is. *grin*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3matEyNLZj8

Cisco wrote:But I don't want that to be the case. Any thoughts in how to successfully take a decent two-stick fighter?

Honestly, I fight them so rarely I tend not to worry about it but for the last two weeks this guy has been at practice going two stick and it's not going so well for me.

Well, for one - just like a left hander or any other "rare" style, it helps to fight them. A lot. Of course, as we can see from the above discussion, there are roughly as many two sword styles as there are successful two-sword fighters (this is less true of RH S&S fighters).

1) It helps to have a reasonably wide (24") or center grip shield. Since they can and will attack you from both sides (duh).

2) I like to hold my shield low (ish) and across to defend my body and legs, and use my sword to ward (both sides of my head). I use a strapped transitional kite (24x36). A smaller strapped shield you might have to chicken wing your shield arm a little. If you are showing too much leg, crouch down a little. Centergrip shields work the best (also vs. great weapon, or off-handed folks).

3) Typically, a two-sworders thrust defense is weak, (although if you are fighting Gavin who has 2 40"+ swords pointed at you, it's not that weak, simply because it's hard to get into range). If they hold "points up" I like to rope thrusts at their face and get the to block.

4) The second weakest point in a twosworders defense is forward leg. It's quite difficult to block for them. Punish it.

5) Third approach is to try to get shield on BOTH swords (or at least 1) and wrap them. This can be quite dangerous, as you have to be able to block deep wraps to both sides if you don't really have him pinned.

6) Others have mentioned this, but "slot" shots down the middle are often effective, as is (assuming you are right handed) knocking his left sword outwards (say, after he attacks with it) with your sword, step forward and get inside him... bad for twosword guy (but make it count!)

IN GENERAL you must account for both swords. That means that, even more so than against an opponent with 1 weapon you will be attacking after he does, because now you know where 1 of his weapons is, and there is some time after you block to make something happen. If he attacks with his left hand, watch where he blocks with his right (and vice-versa - but it's easier for a RH person to punish the left side) and strike one of the other THREE openings (not including back quadrants)