Basket hilts: why not used earlier?

[Baron Eirik]

Side note: In Western Europe there was also a religious affinity for the Cross-hilt. I don't say that was a definitive reason for not developing something better, but I do believe it played a part.

[mordreth]

Sometimes things just do not get invented
until they get invented.
Then everyone looks at this oh-so-obvious
solution to a problem, smacks themself in the
forehead and says "why didn't I think of that?"

We have lots of discussions like this-
for instance, people are always debating why
they did not seem to wear a padded gambeson
under mail until until the 12th century.
Maybe it is just that no one thought of it till then.

-Graedwyn

If you're using your shield properly your sword hand is rarely jepardised so probably there was little need untill shields started going out of use. The guards started betting more complicated almost immediately.
And I still think a properly fulled and felted woolen stuffed coat (as opposed to the new fangled cotton things coming out of the middle east) looks for all the world like a tunic from any distance so I have my doubts that they didn't

[Steve Hick]

Sometimes things just do not get invented
until they get invented.
Then everyone looks at this oh-so-obvious
solution to a problem, smacks themself in the
forehead and says "why didn't I think of that?"

We have lots of discussions like this-
for instance, people are always debating why
they did not seem to wear a padded gambeson
under mail until until the 12th century.
Maybe it is just that no one thought of it till then.

-Graedwyn

If you're using your shield properly your sword hand is rarely jepardised so probably there was little need untill shields started going out of use. The guards started betting more complicated almost immediately.
And I still think a properly fulled and felted woolen stuffed coat (as opposed to the new fangled cotton things coming out of the middle east) looks for all the world like a tunic from any distance so I have my doubts that they didn't

Hi Mordreth,

This is something to which I alluded. The shields shape and use changed in the 11th century from curved and centergrip to flat and enarmed, and you also start having larger cross hilts. You could bring your shield out forward and cover your hand more or it was more covered at the get go. Later with the shield becoming smaller or not used and the sword therefore more frequently used for defense, you begin to have more elaborate hilting. Its not because people were thumbing or fingering the blade as has been proposed, we have evidence of this from the 14th century.

There has been significant discussion about this among some in the HMA community, I don't know if anyone has yet published an opinion or analysis.
Steve

[Steven H]

Side note: In Western Europe there was also a religious affinity for the Cross-hilt. I don't say that was a definitive reason for not developing something better, but I do believe it played a part.

I'll have to wait until I get home to snag the citation but I've seen nothing to support the notion that the cross hilt was part of the symbolism of the Christian knight. The knighting ceremony is full of symbolism (and variations) but the sword is a minor part and is not mentioned as being important due to it's shape, or being holy etc.

So while there were no doubt individuals who considered it holy and regarded the shape as important . . . I don't see it as a likely influence on the design.

Cheers,
Steven

[mordreth]

Sometimes things just do not get invented
until they get invented.
Then everyone looks at this oh-so-obvious
solution to a problem, smacks themself in the
forehead and says "why didn't I think of that?"

We have lots of discussions like this-
for instance, people are always debating why
they did not seem to wear a padded gambeson
under mail until until the 12th century.
Maybe it is just that no one thought of it till then.

-Graedwyn

If you're using your shield properly your sword hand is rarely jepardised so probably there was little need untill shields started going out of use. The guards started betting more complicated almost immediately.
And I still think a properly fulled and felted woolen stuffed coat (as opposed to the new fangled cotton things coming out of the middle east) looks for all the world like a tunic from any distance so I have my doubts that they didn't

Hi Mordreth,

This is something to which I alluded. The shields shape and use changed in the 11th century from curved and centergrip to flat and enarmed, and you also start having larger cross hilts. You could bring your shield out forward and cover your hand more or it was more covered at the get go. Later with the shield becoming smaller or not used and the sword therefore more frequently used for defense, you begin to have more elaborate hilting. Its not because people were thumbing or fingering the blade as has been proposed, we have evidence of this from the 14th century.

There has been significant discussion about this among some in the HMA community, I don't know if anyone has yet published an opinion or analysis.
Steve

It's interesting that you can see an evolution in the SCA in technique which I think started when basket hilts became more common and afordable. There are techniques which are very common which would have been insanely risky in the days of cross hilts and hockey gloves

Id swear that I read someting on this in one of the Metropolitan Museum bulletins

[Baron Eirik]

Side note: In Western Europe there was also a religious affinity for the Cross-hilt. I don't say that was a definitive reason for not developing something better, but I do believe it played a part.

I'll have to wait until I get home to snag the citation but I've seen nothing to support the notion that the cross hilt was part of the symbolism of the Christian knight. The knighting ceremony is full of symbolism (and variations) but the sword is a minor part and is not mentioned as being important due to it's shape, or being holy etc.

So while there were no doubt individuals who considered it holy and regarded the shape as important . . . I don't see it as a likely influence on the design.

Cheers,
Steven

Hey, I'm always willing to be educated!