Pistol Combat Crossbow?

[Will Spicer]

I am holding out for a gatling ballista.

You mean a Cho-ko-nu? The chinese mounted big ones on castle walls and rained death on persons

[Robert of Canterbury]

I am holding out for a gatling ballista.

There is actually historical precedent (at least in design specs) for a chain driven ballista. Greek Vintage.
.

Demetrios Poliorketes? I think he's the chap you are thinking of..

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Really, it seems like the modern grips would be a problem.

But, if you skipped the pistol grip, and you carefully crafted it, it doesn't seem like much of a problem.

Medieval crossbows came in a very wide variety of shapes and sizes.

If you made couple of medieval styled crossbows, who would care?

f

I think I've seen at least one pic in a manuscript (Spanish, 12thC???) of a pistol gripped xbow...

[Oskar der Drachen]

I am holding out for a gatling ballista.

There is actually historical precedent (at least in design specs) for a chain driven ballista. Greek Vintage.
.

Demetrios Poliorketes? I think he's the chap you are thinking of..

That's a familiar name. I've never had the book, (translation from greek) but I have had the book from a good library and at one point (darn it) photocopies of the relevant pages. It was the same book that describes the gas-pressure ballista with nested airtight cylinders that compress to provide the motive force.

All a bit far from the point though.

The issues I see with a short-stock crossbow have been covered, but I can add some ballistics knowledge too.

Time Under Acceleration TUA is what gives a string driven projectile both the velocity and the accuracy for a good flight. Combined with ballistics, a balance of the length of the shot (head)40/60(tail) distribution gives a bolt/arrow/spear the weight distribution for a smooth arc. Fletching just improves this, a properly balanced shot doesn't really need fletches.

If your groove and string travel are too short you are just slapping the shot into action, just like a croquet ball BANG and go, you have to depend on the attrubutes of the projectile itself for a smooth flight, there is no time for guidance. That's why a rifle has better accuracy than a pistol, basic stuff. It's also why a bullet has to be spun for accuracy. No length of the projectile for a ballistic weighting is possible.

Back to a pistol crossbow. the first thing to do is design your ammunition. If you can make a good ballistically stable short arrow that conforms to the rules of the game, build the shortest crossbow that can fire it. Build the point of the arrow, then build shorter and shorter shafts while still being able to throw it properly without it tumbling.

The prod of the bow will be important too. A recurve prod will be able to have a longer draw with a smaller profile. Meaning that because of the shape of the bow, the length of the prod (laying a stright ruler from tip to tip) for the same overall length a recurved shape will give a longer draw (guided TUA) than a simple curve, leading to better accuracy.

Shape of the stock you can play with too. Are you familiar with a Bullpup design of a rifle? The magazine/bolt/firing chamber is behind the grip leading to a shorter overall length.

If you make your crossbow so that you can hold it in the middle of the stock by widening the centre and narrowing the back, you could place the trigger in the middle instead of at the back, leading to a longer groove and better TUA for the overall length of the weapon. You could also then get away from the ruling against a "pistol-grip". I'll see if I can sketch what I'm talking about and attach it to a reply here.

Points to consider then

1. Stable ammunition
2. Recurve prod
3. Bullpup design with a longer groove/draw
4. Trigger in the middle, latch at the rearmost possible position

careful of the fingers yes?

So in the added picture, you would put a great fat stock segment under the middle of the tiller, and the trigger would be there. The groove would extend over this to the rear of the stock increasing the length of the groove. Most of the length of a traditional crossbow is lost to the tiller, decreasing accuracy of the weapon. TUA again. The more time you spend accelerating and guiding the bolt, the better and more accurate the round will be. Better to justify carrying the thing to begin with yes?

[Clinker]

Ok, Oskar, you build a Bullpup crossbow, and you will shoot it in the open class of the IAU (International Armbrustschutzen Union). Because you sure aren't going to be able to shoot it at SCA events, since it will not be even close to a period weapon design.
You will also find that, like pistol shooting versus rifle shooting, your accuracy is far less than with a shoulder-fired weapon. Leaving the short sight radius alone, the weight distribution for one handed fire is problematic, especially if a stirrup is used for cocking. Further, I cannot wait to see the look on your face the first time you bring the butt end with the roller nut close to your aiming eye, and pull your mustache off when the bowstring is released.

Pistol crossbows are, and always have been TOYS. Often expensive toys that showcase the creativity of their builders. Not secret assassin weapons, but TOYS.

While I applaud your obvious design enthusiasm, I think you are designing a solution in search of a problem.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

I was thinking about that a day or two ago...

Henry VIII and other Renaissance princes would pay for all sorts of expensive toys, that no one else had, just for the novelty. After all, all the Cool Monarchs had them. Folding polearms, swords with spring loaded blades that would shoot out, spring loaded buttspikes concealed in the hilt of a sword... So why not a miniature pistol xbow?


AAOTMK shows a crossbow with a full size stock/prod, but only enough room for the hand above the trigger.

[Uadahlrich]

Here's a 17th century type. It would be so cute to see on the field of combat! And I would tell the person that just before I smash them in the face with my mace.

But seriously, they wouldn't be legal in Atlantia, and I doubt any Kingdom except perhaps rapier melee, where they are allowed to have pistols. (and then you could probably shoot only rubberbands/tubes).
-Cian

"Nowhere on MY listfield."

Midrealm Kingdom Rapier Marshal

[Uadahlrich]

I am holding out for a gatling ballista.

You mean a Cho-ko-nu? The chinese mounted big ones on castle walls and rained death on persons

They even used them during the Japanese invasion in the 1930s

[Tibbie Croser]

From the Tod's Stuff link I posted on the previous page of the thread: "These [latchet crossbows} were small powerful bows with an inbuilt cocking lever. This allowed for easy loading even on horse back and a rapid rate of shooting. This example was about 250lb with a bow length of 35 cm (14"). This example was £1,400 and supplied with 3 hand made bolts."

A closeup of the cocking lever:
http://www.todsstuff.co.uk/galpics/pages/Cocking%20lever%20from%2016th%20C%20latchet%20crossbow_JPG.php

This reproduction crossbow is indeed short (14"), but I don't know if people on this thread would consider it a miniature or toy. Draw weight is given as 250 lbs. I don't know how that translates into inch-pounds. Not sure if these bows in period were intended purely as hunting bows or were also used as combat bows for light cavalry or raiders, e.g., the border reivers.

I'd be tickled to have an SCA version of the latchet for rapier CA or target archery, especially since my persona is a Scottish Borderer. I suppose the shorter range and lower power would balance the ease of use.

For comparison, what size were the recurve bows used by Eastern mounted archers? How would an SCA combat archery latchet crossbow compare with an SCA combat archery Eastern horsebow for size, power, and effectiveness?

[AEiric Orvender]

I would like to introduce the notion that all MALE Combat Archers must FIRST authorize in at least two heavy weapon forms, AND fight in a minimum number of tourneys/wars BEFORE authorizing in missile weapons.

Well I know here in the Middle any CA must be authroized in heavy before getting their CA Auth.

[Nissan Maxima]

I would like to introduce the notion that all MALE Combat Archers must FIRST authorize in at least two heavy weapon forms, AND fight in a minimum number of tourneys/wars BEFORE authorizing in missile weapons.

Well I know here in the Middle any CA must be authroized in heavy before getting their CA Auth.

Nope. A member of the chivalry can sponsor you directly into your CA authorization.

[AEiric Orvender]

Well I know here in the Middle any CA must be authroized in heavy before getting their CA Auth.

Nope. A member of the chivalry can sponsor you directly into your CA authorization.[/quote]

Oh I thought that had changed.
Well I was wrong then, pardon me.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Was it Nissan who said he wanted to strap a giant goon with a back mounted ballista? Oh god how awesome that would be. I just imagine this gigantic guy with Nissan riding on him piggy back waving a banner while he launches ballista bolts at wayward archers and spearmen.

The goon is very big, but I am too big to ride the goon. Maybe Vitus could ride him.

So I have avoided this thread because of it's obvious lameness, and yet I felt compelled to read it. Now I know why.
-V

[Oskar der Drachen]

Ok, Oskar, you build a Bullpup crossbow, and you will shoot it in the open class of the IAU (International Armbrustschutzen Union). Further, I cannot wait to see the look on your face the first time you bring the butt end with the roller nut close to your aiming eye, and pull your mustache off when the bowstring is released.

Pistol crossbows are, and always have been TOYS. Often expensive toys that showcase the creativity of their builders. Not secret assassin weapons, but TOYS.

While I applaud your obvious design enthusiasm, I think you are designing a solution in search of a problem.

Oh, I'm not serious about it, just playing with the idea. I like much larger toys than this. I am the guy who got an experimental weapon *specifically* banned by the SCA board though. I built a working SCA legal (technically) hand gonne using the Lochac water rocket conventional projectiles.

They didn't like the idea, sad to say.