The Armour Archive

Hello folks,

I had a gentle come up to me this past weekend/event and ask me if a Pistol Combat Crossbow was "Do Able" ?

As I am mainly a stick jock, I do not have enough information to tell this person if it would be possible to have and use a pistol crossbow in Heavy combat.

can anyone help with this?

thanks

YAY! Pistol crossbows!

Is he refering to a hand crosbow?


The only place I'm familiar with these is from D&D (the drow like them)


but I want to say I've seen them in ninja references, but more of the "American Ninja" 80's movie variety.



I mean physically it is possible. I don't know about making one legal for our game.

Yes, but only if he paints his skin black, his hair white, and wields two scimitars.

And glues nickles all over it.....

He also needs a wicked trench coat and a necklace of skulls.

Yes, I assume that a pistol crossbow could be made to use in combat archery.

That said, aside from the "cool" factor, I personally don't see the advantage of having one. Pistol crossbows have considerably less power than regular crossbows and also the bolts would have to be much shorter. Since they would still need to be large enough in diameter to not enter a grill, I wouldn't think that they would fly well due to the shorter shaft. If he was wanting the pistol to free up his other hand, he would still need to use two hands to cock and load it.

Of the documentation that I have seen, I have not not seen any evidence that a pistol crossbow was ever manufactured prior to 1600. I believe they are a purely a modern invention. Even if they were, I would not think that a pistol crossbow would be a very effective weapon in battle since it does not have the power that a regular crossbow would have. Pistol crossbows are made primarily for target shooting, not killing things.

This is a quote from a crossbow website.

Pistol crossbows are cute. But beyond that, they are pretty limited in their functionality. They generally have a draw weight between 50 and 80 lbs. and launch bolts at up to 200fps. This is adequate for target practice and for taking out the odd rodent. But for serious hunting you'll need something larger and more powerful, like a full-size recurve or compound crossbow.

Pistol crossbows are easier to span due to the reduced draw weight. This makes them ideal for target practice. Pistol crossbows are not as accurate as full size crossbows in much the same way that a pistol is not as accurate as a rifle. The track simply isn't long enough to develop a high degree of accuracy.

This is not to detract from the fun that can be had with a pistol crossbow. Just know the limitations before purchasing one.

Good luck in your hunt for the best pistol crossbows.

So, in short, yeah, it probably could be done. But a person needs to ask themselves do they want to use a weapon that is just as awkward to use, with less power, and that doesn't really fit in our historical game?

Per the Society Earl Marshal's handbook for CA/Siege/Thrown Weapons (available at: http://sca.org/officers/marshal/docs/ma ... ndbook.pdf )

8. Crossbows
a. Crossbows are measured by inch-pounds (â€

then how about a mini crossbow, if not a pistol crossbow?

surely a crossbow can be fabricated that can be held and fired with one-hand (pistol like) using a typical grip and not a "Pistol Grip" and still have a prod large enough and strong enough to meet the society standards for a crossbow?

I still need to find out what this person is talking about and they say they have pictures from this GULF wars of combatants using, in their words "a pocket crossbow".

So I am anxious to see the pictures then I can figure out what they mean.
and YES i asked them time and time again to be sure they were not talking about TARGET ARCHERY and were in fact talking about Heavy Combat Archery.

Thanks all

GavinKyncade wrote:... in their words "a pocket crossbow".

So, like Pokemon?

I mean, hell, it sure would be convenient to just pull something out of my pocket and make a skilled opponent fall down. It would save a lot of sweat, training time, and internal bleeding.

Lightning bolt! Lightning bolt! Lightning bolt!

There were small crossbows in the 16th century that could be used on horseback, mainly for hunting. Supposedly the Border Reivers used such before pistols became more common. Here's an example of a reproduction "latchet" crossbow: http://www.todsstuff.co.uk/16thclatchetbow.php. This one has an inbuilt cocking lever to avoid the need for a windlass or cranequin.

Here's a 17th century type. It would be so cute to see on the field of combat! And I would tell the person that just before I smash them in the face with my mace.

But seriously, they wouldn't be legal in Atlantia, and I doubt any Kingdom except perhaps rapier melee, where they are allowed to have pistols. (and then you could probably shoot only rubberbands/tubes).
-Cian

Cian of Storvik wrote:And I would tell the person that just before I smash them in the face with my mace.

I believe that a more appropriate response would be to take the shot. And then go get every combat archer on your side to light up the user of the pistol-crossbow like a trailer park christmas tree.

Many SCAdian fighters (or at least the ones I know) who use crossbows prefer a short stock. The recoil is low so combat crossbows do not need to be butted against the shoulder and their range is low so a stable base for sniping isn't as important as not getting tangled up with the people around you. The ones I know can be manipulated (poorly) one handed like a pistol but they can only be manipulated poorly in two hands either because of the gauntlets.

A thing your friend should know about crossbows in general. They are expensive toys. In a life vs death battle I would gladly take a shot and then discard the weapon for close combat but in a game I'm much less likely to risk my toys getting stepped on. As a matter of fact I think there is a rule about bringing your missle weapon to the sideline before engaging in melee combat. You should check both SCA.org and your local kingdom for specific rules related to this.

Goofy stunts like droping your sword and pulling the concealed mini-crossbow from behind your shield or trying to win a fight with a gunslinger quick-draw is just... goofy... and isn't going to work anyplace other then the movies. Not certain if this is what he wanted to do, it's just a general comment.

Sean

Oh! I was just kidding! The problem is that it needs to be 400 SCA in/lb (sca in lbs. are distance of string travel times weight of tension at nocking length). So a small handheld crossbow with a string travel of 5-6" or so, would need to pull around 70#-80# minimally.
Besides the problem of how to cock a small pistol, you also have to consider the cast it will have. Even a full sized crossbow has a range of about 80-100 yards with a combat blunt with a half decent prod travel.
With a prod travel that is 70% of a full sized crossbow, the cast of the bolt will be sort of sad. And if you don't kill the person in your range, they will be on top of you before you can say "OH SHI...!"

-Cian

He can submit pictures of one but I believe it is against the spirit of our game.

That said I probably would not allow it.

Thorstenn.
Trimaris
KEM.

Hmm... I own at least one pistol crossbow..I've never even taken it out of the box, if my thinking is correct.


Val

The old LARP I played was full of them.

We called them the gangsta gang because they all walked around talking like gangsta elves while they held them. I remember the funniest was when one gangsta elf named Terik even held it sideways as he threatened some townsperson.

They are L ame with a capital L.

I am holding out for a gatling ballista.

Was it Nissan who said he wanted to strap a giant goon with a back mounted ballista? Oh god how awesome that would be. I just imagine this gigantic guy with Nissan riding on him piggy back waving a banner while he launches ballista bolts at wayward archers and spearmen.

PEW! PEW!




You're like dead and stuff...

Really, it seems like the modern grips would be a problem.

But, if you skipped the pistol grip, and you carefully crafted it, it doesn't seem like much of a problem.

Medieval crossbows came in a very wide variety of shapes and sizes.

If you made couple of medieval styled crossbows, who would care?

f

I have actually used one of these about 10 years ago. I was working polearm at gulfwar 2 and I had a holster riged up to hold a crossbow built roughly on the above pattern [the pistol one, not the drow one] only not so purty. Worked great to shoot from the second or third rank into the same. Very handy in a shield wall when you needed to make the other side jump a bit. Saddly it got broke and I never got around to rebuilding it.

While it was fun, the range sucked rox. The impact was ok, but it had about half the range of a normal crossbow.

Skutai wrote:Yes, but only if he paints his skin black, his hair white, and wields two scimitars.

geek

I think Nissan actually HAS something like this, but to call it a pistol is a stretch. It's the size of a really big wheellock and has a built in cocking lever. maybe the great "red one" can post a pic or two.

With any luck, someone will solve the length problem, AND make small REPEATER crossbows. Thus bringing down the wrath of both the Chivalry AND Handgun Control Inc.

This sort of stuff seems to come from young males that do not fight heavy weapon, and want to become deadly opponents with no personal effort expended.

I would like to introduce the notion that all MALE Combat Archers must FIRST authorize in at least two heavy weapon forms, AND fight in a minimum number of tourneys/wars BEFORE authorizing in missile weapons.

The women I don't care about, there are fewer of them, and they don't have THE ATTITUDE. But I am certainly okay with making them do the long apprenticeship in arms as well.

The typical young fellows interested in CA seem to lack respect for the heavy weapon forms and the long training necessary, and seek to shortcut their way to becoming "Badass Killers". Best way to winnow these guys out is to make it a long difficult road to be a Combat Archer. Most probably won't stick it out, and those that do will have a proper appreciation of Medieval Combat, and be better warriors for it. You could also call it maturity.


Or we could do the Gun Control method. Eliminate small, easily concealable, low powered Saturday Night Arbalests. This is not as foolish as it seems. The question of exactly WHAT we are reenacting with combat crossbows seems to be pretty foggy, and not really thought out at all. Thus creating some of the stupidities that make fighters grind their teeth.


Most military crossbows seen in period artwork have about three-foot tillers. Shorter after the 15C, but most infantry seem to have carried big, powerful bows. Definitely NOT pistol crossbows.

Next. The crossbows used in war were very hard, or impossible to cock by hand. Yet in SCA usage, one sees shooters simultaneously running and cocking their crossbows by hand. What are they reenacting? Light bird bows and Armored Combat do not mix. The fire power allowed (as measured in shots-per-minute) is too high for crossbows powerful enough to have been used in war.

Hand-cocked crossbows should be required to be cocked with the use of a foot in a stirrup, or both feet on the prod. As the original wooden-bowed weapons needed. None of this cheesy putting the end of the tiller against the stomach, and pulling the string back, while running stuff. Hand cocked bows were really only used with wooden bows. The original wooden prods were three and a half to four feet in length and pulled at around 150+lbs. Both long prod length and use of feet for cocking should be required for hand-cocked bows, if we are reenacting anything useful at all.

The later bows of composite or steel form were more powerful. Too powerful for hand cocking.Since most combat archers today are using steel or fiberglass bows, often with short sporting-type tillers, these weapons should be required to use reloading devices, just as the originals were.
Steel or composite bows of this type typically had 300lb pulls, larger crossbows even more. This level of power requires a belthook-and-stirrup, or pulley-and-cord to cock. Of course, a wooden gaffle, or steel goat foot lever, or even some sort of screw, crank or windlass would also be appropriate. The larger field bows require the windlass or craniquen to span them.Having the power to be useful requires the tools to use them, and that makes these weapons relatively slow.

The minimum recocking tool for these short prod and often short tillered weapons should be a belt hook and stirrup. Some may prefer a loading lever or craniquen of some sort. But it should be required. A powerful bow requires powerful tools to span them.

So, if you want the effects of the big bow, you should have the firepower of the big bow by using the necessary loading methods and tools of the big bow. Payne-Galwey stated it took about a minute-a-shot for a windlass-cocked crossbow. About a minute and a half per shot for a craniquen cocked bow. It takes somewhat less to use a belt-and-hook or other tool, less for hand cocking light crossbows. So much for the speed stage for the Royal Round competition, which is pointless for crossbows anyway, and is another example of wooly thinking.

In the long way around, I am proposing rules to prohibit small easily conceable, cheap, low powered, high capacity, quick firing hand weapons from the battlefield. Military-grade weapons only please. And a training requirement before issuing a license to carry. At least it is not "For the Children", but rather to improve the game.

InsaneIrish wrote:PEW! PEW!




You're like dead and stuff...

Stop posting pics of my girlfriend!

She's MINE I tell you.

DA

Leopold der Wolf wrote:Was it Nissan who said he wanted to strap a giant goon with a back mounted ballista? Oh god how awesome that would be. I just imagine this gigantic guy with Nissan riding on him piggy back waving a banner while he launches ballista bolts at wayward archers and spearmen.

The goon is very big, but I am too big to ride the goon. Maybe Vitus could ride him.

InsaneIrish wrote:And glues nickles all over it.....

+1

Mikhail_Voronov wrote:Is he refering to a hand crosbow?
The only place I'm familiar with these is from D&D (the drow like them)
but I want to say I've seen them in ninja references, but more of the "American Ninja" 80's movie variety.

"Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight" has a picture (I think 14th cent) of Jesus riding a donkey and holding a pistol crossbow.

If I remember correctly hand crossbow are illegal up across the great northern border - Canada that is. They were made illegal because of the number of people killed by them - NONE. So, if you get one please don't be bringing it up here or they will be banning other things that have not killed anybody.

William of Stonebridge wrote:Of the documentation that I have seen, I have not not seen any evidence that a pistol crossbow was ever manufactured prior to 1600. I believe they are a purely a modern invention. Even if they were, I would not think that a pistol crossbow would be a very effective weapon in battle since it does not have the power that a regular crossbow would have. Pistol crossbows are made primarily for target shooting, not killing things.

Master Kaz made one years ago, that he apparently found documentation for. It was for killing, but at close range, and you disappear into the crowd afterwards.

Hand bows are made for killin
Aint no good for nothin else
And if you like your whiskey
You might even shoot yourself
So why dont we dump em people
To the bottom of the sea
Before some fool come around here
Wanna shoot either you or me

Winterfell wrote:I am holding out for a gatling ballista.

There is actually historical precedent (at least in design specs) for a chain driven ballista. Greek Vintage.
The exact title of the book escapes my sickess enfeebled brain at the moment.
It was driven by a flat link chain wound by a double crank, and fed by an upright box magazine. All the three gunners had to do was to wind the crank, point it, and keep the box full of pointy things.

I had the serious desire to build one, but was told....

"Bad Oskar, NO Cookie!"

I suppose it was my maniacal laughter and my refrain of BOOMBOOMBOOMBOOMBOOM that put people off the idea.

Maybe they put poison on them? "Alright you got shot by a hand crossbow...Keep fighting..but in 5 minutes you better yell good!"

Oskar der Drachen wrote:

Winterfell wrote:I am holding out for a gatling ballista.

There is actually historical precedent (at least in design specs) for a chain driven ballista. Greek Vintage.
The exact title of the book escapes my sickess enfeebled brain at the moment.
It was driven by a flat link chain wound by a double crank, and fed by an upright box magazine. All the three gunners had to do was to wind the crank, point it, and keep the box full of pointy things.

I had the serious desire to build one, but was told....

"Bad Oskar, NO Cookie!"

I suppose it was my maniacal laughter and my refrain of BOOMBOOMBOOMBOOMBOOM that put people off the idea.

After all I had my combat ballista teams down to an aimed shot every five seconds, and that was s three person team using a manual crank. I bet we could have got to once every two seconds if you didn't have to use any manual loading sequence. Then you get a flying squad of three weapons on my Galloper chassis with the big field wheels..... That's 90 shots a minute!

Nah, just dreaming!