So-Called 'Crusader' / 'Christian Madu' Style - Historical?

[Leo Medii]

It's also much easier to hit edge on with a bladed weapon than with a stick. Aerodynamics.

I have to say that I totally disagree with this statement.

Would it not be easier to hit a target with 1/2" to slightly more of random surface area than it would be to hit with pinpoint blade accuracy? There is a lot more to striking with the edge of a real weapon than the aerodynamics of the weapon. Hitting with the blade properly oriented with the target and with the proper technique is far more difficult than randomly chopping with a club with a 1/2" viable marking and no way of ascertaining if the orientation of the blade is correct for cutting.

Using an SCA weapon is like using the sword like an iron club. I'm not dissing SCA, I love the combat. However, the study of using the sword like an actual sword is lacking in almost all SCA baton combat training...

[Steven H]

It's also much easier to hit edge on with a bladed weapon than with a stick. Aerodynamics.

I have to say that I totally disagree with this statement.

Would it not be easier to hit a target with 1/2" to slightly more of random surface area than it would be to hit with pinpoint blade accuracy? There is a lot more to striking with the edge of a real weapon than the aerodynamics of the weapon. Hitting with the blade properly oriented with the target and with the proper technique is far more difficult than randomly chopping with a club with a 1/2" viable marking and no way of ascertaining if the orientation of the blade is correct for cutting.

Using an SCA weapon is like using the sword like an iron club. I'm not dissing SCA, I love the combat. However, the study of using the sword like an actual sword is lacking in almost all SCA baton combat training...

So I think it's more complicated than that. First time I ever test cut I only 4" deep. Against a person that would've been fatal. I didn't cut all the way through the target or cut "well". Additionally, there are no period manuals that stress the importance of edge alignment. In fact the first test cutting in Western sword practice is from the 19th century. Edge alignment and cutting efficiency were not real high priorities in the Medieval era.

Further the SCA simulates combat wearing mail armour. Mail armour will turn just about any edge so edge alignment is of lower importance. Obviously a poorly aligned edge will transfer energy less efficiently but not tremendously.

I think ignoring edge alignment is a bad idea but . . . it's also not the highest priority.

Cheers,
Steven

[Leo Medii]

So I think it's more complicated than that.

I agree. It is far more complicated than flailing about.

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

let me rephrase so as to not be over-interpreted.

If you swing a real blade like an sca sword, it will not, typically, hit with the flat. If you are some "angle" off off it will naturally "straighten" in the air.

Now, it may GLANCE and not bite, but that is more a function of the target property than the initial blow, no?

None of the above should be construed with having anything to with actual swordfighting. I am just saying that the lack of an edge on a rattan weapon just makes it fly worse.

[Steven H]

let me rephrase so as to not be over-interpreted.

If you swing a real blade like an sca sword, it will not, typically, hit with the flat. If you are some "angle" off off it will naturally "straighten" in the air.

Now, it may GLANCE and not bite, but that is more a function of the target property than the initial blow, no?

With all respect, have you done test cutting? My own personal experiences have been that the "airfoil" of the sword doesn't straighten out its path. And no one else that I've spoken to on the subject has mentioned such a phenomenon.

I agree, though, that it's a fairly irrelevant to SCA

Cheers,
Steven

[Leo Medii]

let me rephrase so as to not be over-interpreted.

If you swing a real blade like an sca sword, it will not, typically, hit with the flat. If you are some "angle" off off it will naturally "straighten" in the air.

Now, it may GLANCE and not bite, but that is more a function of the target property than the initial blow, no?

With all respect, have you done test cutting? My own personal experiences have been that the "airfoil" of the sword doesn't straighten out its path. And no one else that I've spoken to on the subject has mentioned such a phenomenon.

I agree, though, that it's a fairly irrelevant to SCA

Cheers,
Steven

I have to say I echo Steven. I've done a lot of cutting with both tatami and other materials with many different swords and I've never noticed this either. In the tamashigiri cutting we do it is of utmost importance to have proper blade alignment, and the material is not forgiving for mistakes.
I would think that the blade being swung incorrectly would cause the sword to waver in the hand more than self correct in the path of the swing arc before impact?

[Blaine de Navarre]

I've done only a little bit of test-cutting, so take this FWIW.

My experience has been that there are several differences in handling between rattan and steel, but edge orientation isn't one of them. But I do more shaping of my rattan, both blade and grip, than some folks, so I can see how if one were using plain 1-1/4" round edge orientation might be an issue.

[iomtalach]

Additionally, there are no period manuals that stress the importance of edge alignment. In fact the first test cutting in Western sword practice is from the 19th century. Edge alignment and cutting efficiency were not real high priorities in the Medieval era.

Edge alignment *is* very much a factor in the manuals. You can see in the later manuals the cutting diagrams on the walls? Students are supposed to practice cutting against those lines.

I can't imagine alignment being precisely mentioned. I would think it would just to obvious to mention. When you watch a student cutting against a segno, if they don't have the right edge alignment, the sword won't track correctly.

It's hard not to cut correctly with a sword, after a little training...because of the balance of the weapon and shape of the handle and the quillons. Rattan simply does not compare.

[Steven H]

When you watch a student cutting against a segno, if they don't have the right edge alignment, the sword won't track correctly.

I hadn't thought of that before. But as soon as I read it
That makes sense and I've seen it plenty.

I still have the feeling that, for instance, the modern tameshigiri practices we see today would be more concerned with edge alignment than we'd see Medieval Europe. <shrugs>

Cheers,
Steven

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

With all respect, have you done test cutting? My own personal experiences have been that the "airfoil" of the sword doesn't straighten out its path. And no one else that I've spoken to on the subject has mentioned such a phenomenon.

Nope.

[blackbow]

Something everybody might be forgetting.

One of the reasons there wouldn't be a lot of two sword (or two of ANY weapon except maybe axe) is because, well, swords were (a) expensive as hell, (b) not a standard footman's weapon, and (c) not the thing you fought most of a battle with in the first place. If you even OWNED a sword at all, you probably fought most of the battle with a lance and horse.

Additionally, if you had a sword, you probably had a shield, which, as has been mentioned quite a bit, was just as much of a weapon than a sword, if not a better one due to its mass. Which, in this game, we don't use.

regards

Jonathan Blackbow

[Kilkenny]

let me rephrase so as to not be over-interpreted.

If you swing a real blade like an sca sword, it will not, typically, hit with the flat. If you are some "angle" off off it will naturally "straighten" in the air.

Now, it may GLANCE and not bite, but that is more a function of the target property than the initial blow, no?

With all respect, have you done test cutting? My own personal experiences have been that the "airfoil" of the sword doesn't straighten out its path. And no one else that I've spoken to on the subject has mentioned such a phenomenon.

I agree, though, that it's a fairly irrelevant to SCA

Cheers,
Steven

Steven, have you tried swinging your sword to strike flat ? I'll wager that you can feel the difference in the air resistance between flat and generally edge on.

The difference between really exactly correct edge alignment and somewhat off edge alignment may not be enough to feel at all - and it may manifest not as a difference in resistance but in the blade taking a slightly different path than intended as it follows the path of least resistance.

With the typical rattan simulator, the aerodynamics of the stick are little, if any, different whether edge on or flat.

There's a very distinct difference between swinging flat and swinging edge on with a steel sword that is absent when swinging rattan.

[Steven H]

Something everybody might be forgetting.

One of the reasons there wouldn't be a lot of two sword (or two of ANY weapon except maybe axe) is because, well, swords were (a) expensive as hell, (b) not a standard footman's weapon, and (c) not the thing you fought most of a battle with in the first place. If you even OWNED a sword at all, you probably fought most of the battle with a lance and horse.

Additionally, if you had a sword, you probably had a shield, which, as has been mentioned quite a bit, was just as much of a weapon than a sword, if not a better one due to its mass. Which, in this game, we don't use.

regards

Jonathan Blackbow

Hello,

This is a common misconception of medieval soldiers. A & B are not correct. Though C is so correct that the overall point you make is still right

By the High Middle ages just about every soldier on a battlefield had a sword (or falchion, or messer etc.). Just look at the battle scenes in the Maciejowski Bible.

And swords were not too expensive for soldiers to afford. Records of prices paid for swords shows a tremendous range including some for as little as 2p. For soldiers in the English army 2p was a days pay if you were the lowest paid soldier. Most made enough to buy a sword that cost three times as much with a just a days pay.

Too often everyone below knight level is depicted as being barely able to afford more than a farming implement and a pot on their head. The reality is that Medieval armies were usually composed entirely of professional and semi-professional soldiers who were required by law to be properly equipped before they could fight.

Cheers,
Steven

[Steven H]

Steven, have you tried swinging your sword to strike flat ? I'll wager that you can feel the difference in the air resistance between flat and generally edge on.

I've fought with the flat. And I can feel the difference. But it's fairly small. Not enough that I think it's gonna rotate the sword in my hand.

The difference between really exactly correct edge alignment and somewhat off edge alignment may not be enough to feel at all - and it may manifest not as a difference in resistance but in the blade taking a slightly different path than intended as it follows the path of least resistance.

I'm not sure I know what you mean by this.

With the typical rattan simulator, the aerodynamics of the stick are little, if any, different whether edge on or flat.

There's a very distinct difference between swinging flat and swinging edge on with a steel sword that is absent when swinging rattan.

This is undoubtedly true.

Cheers,
Steven

[Kilkenny]

What is it about the rules that you think makes it work better in the SCA? (I'm rather new to SCA fighting so it isn't obvious to me).

Thanks,
Steven

Contact kills, not blade orientation. If you went with blade orientation (which requires some way to judge a blade edge cut/slash/hack without actually doing it), a number of commonly used shots just wouldn't work.

This is one of the more prevalent bits of dogma running around.

I not only disagree with it, but reject it as categorically wrong.

There are some people fighting in SCA who are not aware of their edge alignment. They land some blows that should not count. That's due to errors in their technique, not inherent flaws in the blows being thrown.

There are other people fighting in the SCA who are completely aware of their edge orientation. They know whether or not their blow landed with a suitable alignment or not.

I freely grant that an SCA sword is more - much more - forgiving in terms of edge alignment than is a real sword. I will also argue that with a real sword you get immediate feedback as to whether you are swinging it with the blade flat versus edge on. That feedback doesn't get you to the precise edge alignment that is needed for a really well struck blow with a steel sword, but it swiftly gets you away from swinging the sword at 90 degrees from correct orientation.

Is the average fighter in the SCA going to be able to pick up a steel sword and start landing their full repertoire of blows with proper edge alignment (the kind of proper needed with steel) the very first time out ? No, of course not. Neither is the man off the street. I think the average SCA fighter is going to start landing with effect much more quickly than the average man off the street. The training they've had for SCA fighting will give them a headstart.

Are some blows commonly used in the SCA harder to land with proper edge alignment than others ? Probably. It's probably true that some of the blows in (insert manual of your choice) are harder to land with proper edge alignment than others. It's equally true that some people will have more problems with strike A and other people will have more problems with strike C. Differences in our physicality probably make up more of the differences in difficulty than anything inherent to the techniques.

I'm quite certain that with practice a person could learn to land any SCA sword blow properly with a steel sword. Similarly with practice one can learn to land the blows in the manuals. Just how much difference there really is between the blows in the manuals and the blows used in SCA fighting is another conversation

[Kilkenny]

Steven, have you tried swinging your sword to strike flat ? I'll wager that you can feel the difference in the air resistance between flat and generally edge on.

I've fought with the flat. And I can feel the difference. But it's fairly small. Not enough that I think it's gonna rotate the sword in my hand.

The difference between really exactly correct edge alignment and somewhat off edge alignment may not be enough to feel at all - and it may manifest not as a difference in resistance but in the blade taking a slightly different path than intended as it follows the path of least resistance.

I'm not sure I know what you mean by this.

With the typical rattan simulator, the aerodynamics of the stick are little, if any, different whether edge on or flat.

There's a very distinct difference between swinging flat and swinging edge on with a steel sword that is absent when swinging rattan.

This is undoubtedly true.

Cheers,
Steven

It's not about rotating the sword in your hand. It's about getting feedback that tells you the sword is in the wrong orientation. That feedback is totally absent with the typical SCA stick. That feedback makes learning basic edge orientation much easier with steel.

Eventually a person learns that orientation is a matter of the feel in their hand, not the shape of the weapon - but all the little bits of feedback that tell us about where we are and whether we're in the right position continue to be useful.

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

That feedback is totally absent with the typical SCA stick. That feedback makes learning basic edge orientation much easier with steel.

I don't have much to add to Gavin's point - except that almost every "serious" fighter I know carves their rattan sword grips in such a way (oval, form fit, or even triangular) so that they can tell which way the blade is oriented by feel.

It is true that you ALSO have to train HAND orientation when you hit. When this is wrong (and by SCA rules, it's an illegal blow) this is most often on a "wrap" or thumb-lead shot where the thumb doesn't quite get all the way around.

[Donal Mac Ruiseart]

And swords were not too expensive for soldiers to afford. Records of prices paid for swords shows a tremendous range including some for as little as 2p.

Gives you a different perspective on the expression "putting your two cents' worth in."

But I wonder just how useful a sword that cheap would be. You know, I've got a couple of $20 swords. They look pretty good, but I'm not sure how much I'd trust 'em in a fight.

[Gaston de Vieuxchamps]

Gladitoria and at least one other fectboke do show "christian" style and from my studies it does not just seem to be a convenient way to hold the sword while chucking the spear. In fact chucking the spear was not necessary. You have to understand the rules of the duel. Both fighters are required to have identical gear:a spear, a sword, a dagger, and a buckler. So there became many inventive ways to use them. Talhoffer shows holding the sword and buckler together "christian" style to create a larger shield to make for safer closing in order to create a dagger fight. His take was that they all end up dagger fights anyway so your job was to close safely and start the grapple with initiative in your favor. Gladitoria also shows the spear and buckler in the off hand for parrying with either the dagger or sword in the prime hand. The question is always "why not just use a shield?" The answer is because you don't get one. There were some weird suggestions in the books, like unscrewing the pommel and throwing it at your opponent for surprise. The idea was to exploit your strengths as you might find yourself in a judicial duel having little skill with one or more of the supplied items.

The fact is that somewhere, some time, under very special circumstances people DID actually fight that way, but it's not really enough to base a whole style on. My personal opinion is that for armoured SCA combat it's about the same "authenticity" as our "florintine" which is to say not much.

For that reason when SCA circumstance call for two weapons, I always opt for sword and spear.

Gaston

[Fearghus Macildubh]

Gaston,
I just had an aha now I get it moment reading your post. I hadn't considered the "make the best with what you have to use" angle. I did read somewhere that throwing the spear was a holdover from the Germanic tribal legal code, but it was on a website, so YMMV.