The Armour Archive

and it made me fully appreciate the greatness that is the SCA.

Oh sweet mistress never again will I stray.

I've played with some friends before myself. I do enjoy the shield bashing/kicking and grappling though. But seeing 9/10ths of people resting their chin on their shield and not being able to slap them in the head made me rage a bit.

The lightness and speed that you can swing one of those things was also frustrating. But I have to give credit to the guys who're really good at the sport. Their ability to see and react to incredibly fast moving objects is good.

Not being able to reliably parry with your sword though is gay. There is just not enough mass in either weapon to really block unless you get incredibly lucky.

That seems to be the main difference really. in Sca you can use your shields/weapons etc alot more to block while in boffer town you have to be really fast/dodgy to survive.

Ah well. SCA you're the girl for me.

Just being curious but could you please describe your experience, Raulin? As someone who actively plays both SCA and Dagorhir, I'm always interested in hearing about other fighters' thoughts and opinions when they attempt to cross over.

I tried it once or twice. I thought it was fun.

I had a similar reaction as Raulin (wanting to thank whomever it was who came up with the rules and regs for SCA) a few years ago when I attended a Belegarth or Dagorhir event near Washington DC.

I found the safety regs a bit lacsidasical where people are not supposed to be wacking you in the head with this foam covered piece of fiberglass rods, and yet everyone is running around screaming their heads off, whacking each other in th head with their foam covered fiberglass rods. And I kept thinking "it's only a matter of time before someone loses an eye....hopefully not me."

I understand it draws a younger crowd (I'm an old turd) and a slightly different view on things and I'm glad people like it. Just not my cup of tea. Not saying SCA is better, it's Just mucho more to my liking being more into the historical aspect of things.
-Cian

I tried Dagohir once.

I braced my shield to receive a charge in the typical manner.

Took me a minute or two to figure out why my nose hurt so much...

Raulin Arbor wrote:and it made me fully appreciate the greatness that is the SCA.

Oh sweet mistress never again will I stray.

Can you be more specific? I am a cross-sport fighter (SCA/Amtgard/Belegarth/Dagorhir) and was wondering what was so disheartening about it.

BTW I am in no way shape or form wanting to start a flame war.

Thanks in advance.

-Ramius

I actually started fighting with Dag, before moving on to Markland and the SCA.

It was fun. I thought/think their calibration is too light, though it isn't tap fighting, and the people who are good at it are very good at what they do. I do like the physicality of it, though because of the low calibration, I generally found I didn't get much grappling in. I also miss being able to whack someone in the low leg- that changes the game alot- making people alot less static.

That said, the number of missile weapons on the field are insane, with rules make all of them effectively nuclear, the weapons and shields are generally feather weight, and it draws a very different, much younger crowd than Markland and the SCA. The culture is very different.

Between the calibration and the lack of headshots, I just find it alot less satisfying than rattan fighting, and because I do Markland, I get my fill of grappling and shield kicking there. I haven't gotten rid of my Dag gear, because it's nice to know on a 95 degree day I can fight without gearing up, but all my time has been going to rattan fighting for some time now.

I've also never been comfortable fighting with the amount of minors you see on a Dag field, and I certainly hold myself back when I'm fighting them. That's a law suit waiting to happen.

For me, it was just pillow fighting. Ok.... absolutlely cutting edge of pillow fighting technology... but pillow fighting none the less.

Also, having their "hot" fighter litterally duck his head into an arm shot, then absolutely scream as if hit by a brick... and proceed to berate me for hitting him in the head.


And too hard.


With a pillow.


Not for me. Not for me at all.


But to be fair, what I saw Dave Mordal doing on Recreation Nation looked like a whole truckload of fun... and much different than the sheet wearing pillow fighters that introduced me to Dargohir.

Eirik wrote:
But to be fair, what I saw Dave Mordal doing on Recreation Nation looked like a whole truckload of fun... and much different than the sheet wearing pillow fighters that introduced me to Dagorhir.

The big events ARE truckloads of fun and they do have really good numbers. Its the smaller events that are so-so.

Urdok wrote:That said, the number of missile weapons on the field are insane, with rules make all of them effectively nuclear...

I played Dagorhir at the local level for the year or so that they had an active chapter here. Their practice was a couple hours before SCA practice started, and held on the other side of the same park, so it made a fine warm-up for SCA.

Without going into the stuff that makes the game suck at a political level, my biggest problem is what Urdok said above: Dagorhir's rules were written to make archers happy. Period.

They allow arrows to absolutely ignore body armour. Why? Because the armoured person can't feel the pillow-on-a-stick striking them, so they err on the side of the archer, naturally.

They also allow the archer, not the fighter, to decide whether or not his arrow struck you, and in what body part he struck you. As you can guess, this leads to a lot of cheating on the part of the archers, who can effectively dictate the results of every arrow they shoot. And the rules support this, if you can believe it.

It's these two rules that ruin the game for me; I'll never play again. It's a horrible game with rules written by someone who had a big hard-on for bows and hated all other weapons and armour. It is not at all what I want from a set of medieval-flavored boffer combat rules.

Josh K wrote:Just being curious but could you please describe your experience, Raulin? As someone who actively plays both SCA and Dagorhir, I'm always interested in hearing about other fighters' thoughts and opinions when they attempt to cross over.

To be fair it wasn't a completely un-enjoyable experience however there were quite a few things that convinced me that Dagorhir isn't the game for me.

Let's get my bitching out of the way first:

1. I hardly ever saw who killed me. It seems like people would wait for you to engage with someone and get into a duel and just when you are actually having a good fight someone would sneak up and tap you on the back.

2. It was like playing foam tag. Sometimes it was like playing foam tag with Rhinos because their tappy hits counted but your full on body rockers didn't. However there were a couple (very few) guys that would give you the courtesy of hitting you hard enough to feel it.

3. No head shots. I know it's for safety and all but it was very difficult for me and my other SCA friend that went with me to not go for the noggin. I was killed several times because I was going to throw a flat snap to the (completely undefended) head and had to pull me shot back as my conscious brain screamed to override my lizard brain.

4. Finesse and skill seemed to be an afterthought. To be fair there were some guys out there that were finesse fighters but most of the crew were just flailing monstrosities. There was no taking your time and squaring up with an opponent and using skill to over come them. The swords bounce so much when you block with them that it is almost impossible to parry-riposte. Wraps and snaps are pretty much useless because you don't have to generate any power to get a kill. What most people would do was flick a shot out and keep flicking their wrist out until you died of annoyance.

5. Some of the guys were ass-hats. Which is true of any group so I won't harp on it.

Ok, on to the good

1. Most of the people were very friendly. Most of the group were genuinely good people that made us outsiders feel very welcome.

2. Cute little blonde in leather armor. Always a plus.

3. I really liked the fantasy aspect of it. What really drew me into wanting to try Dagorhir in the first place was the fantasy element of it. Most people's persona's were pretty cool. I think if something existed with the SCA's set of rules and fighting style, but with some high fantasy mixed in, it could be a very enjoyable experience.

Basically everything I've ever read on the archive about foam fighting groups came true. I should have listened to you guys. Next time I'll know better.

I'll Admit it! Im doing Dagorhir!

Why???


1. The Exercise. These guys dont stop moving. They Run Arround.

2. Its Fun. Controlling my Head Shots takes a few minutes to get down every week, but overall its fun.

3. The guys in the local group are really cool! And we are beginning to cross pollinate. This is my goal, to get everyone in my area to get along.


Violen's Suggestions for SCA Trying Dagorhir:

1. Leave your honor at the edge of the battlefield. They will corkscrew you, do it to them. Hit them in the back. Grab a buddy or six and doubleteam someone. They will love it!

2. Be prepared for a game with a lot of movement. dont stay static, run/jog till your worn out, wait at the res point and get in when you catch your breath. This is great exercise.

3. Be willing to answer any questions/rumors about the SCA in general or their past dealings with foam groups. There is a lot of misinformation that has been destructive to my area on both sides. Most of the stories ive heard, responded to or asked about are Made Up by people who never really played.

4. Bring Jugs of Water, cheap always save peanuts and some jerky. Give it as a gift. They will become instantly more friendly.

5. Remember, this is not a technique game! Its a numbers/speed game. Dont be afraid to whack some dude in the back while passing on to hit someone else.

6. Spear Gods are still Spear Gods. So far i havent seen how either rules set effects their abilitys. I met a Dag spear guy whos been doing spear since 2000. If you put him on an SCA field for Melees, he would be just as effective.


Seriously guys. Its a Different game, but they have ideas of the same Dream that we do. Combat and Glory, Comradery and Fun.

Its helping me lose weight. We have people interested in joining the SCA, and some people now interested in foam fighting for fun.


Is that bad?

Raulin Arbor wrote: I think if something existed with the SCA's set of rules and fighting style, but with some high fantasy mixed in, it could be a very enjoyable experience.

Actually, that sounds like fun.

Glad to hear you're enjoying yourself at the local Dagorhir practice Violen.

Joaquin wrote:

Urdok wrote: It's a horrible game with rules written by someone who had a big hard-on for bows and hated all other weapons and armour.

The person who wrote the rules has been fighting in the SCA for over 20 years and they are deadly with a greatsword as there personal favorite weapon, so to say something so strong as "hated all other weapons and armour" is a little silly. They do admit to being a little regretful in writing the rules the way they did nearly thirty years ago. The rules have also been slightly added to in strange ways over the years since they were first written.

Violen wrote:
Violen's Suggestions for SCA Trying Dagorhir:

1. Leave your honor at the edge of the battlefield.

Ok. The game lost all apeal in my book.

Kilian_the_warlike wrote:

Violen wrote:
Violen's Suggestions for SCA Trying Dagorhir:

1. Leave your honor at the edge of the battlefield.

Ok. The game lost all apeal in my book.

That's not quite fair. Most Dag players are pretty good at taking shots, and there are many who will take absolutely anything unless you tell them it wasn't good.

However, it is a melee game and its melee rules are much more free flowing than SCA melee rules, so expecting a stand-up fight is kind of silly. There's not much "square up and advance on each other" fighting in most Dag events.

The type of honor to leave at the edge of the field is that in expecting face-to-face engagements. A lot of people will backstab you. Like Urdok said, the rules are written for melee and almost every battle practice or event is a melee.

Most boffer fighting and SCA fighting will differ greatly. best is to realize that it is two different rulesets for two different crowds and then ask yourself what is your main goal here:

1. To play and have fun according to the new rules.
2. To show what you have learnt in the SCA and use some of those metaphorical rules.
3. To combine the two and see if you can use this as a middle ground to recruit new SCA members.

Personally, I would start out with 1 and follow it to 2 and then 3. Enjoy it, have fun and smile a lot.

I started out in 1987 playing boffers. Fortunately my boffer club was started by an SCA guy so we hit hard, fast and accurate. It was a blast. Took until 1993 until I joined the SCA, but I have been hooked since.

twoswords wrote:Most boffer fighting and SCA fighting will differ greatly. best is to realize that it is two different rulesets for two different crowds and then ask yourself what is your main goal here:

1. To play and have fun according to the new rules.
2. To show what you have learnt in the SCA and use some of those metaphorical rules.
3. To combine the two and see if you can use this as a middle ground to recruit new SCA members.

Personally, I would start out with 1 and follow it to 2 and then 3. Enjoy it, have fun and smile a lot.

I started out in 1987 playing boffers. Fortunately my boffer club was started by an SCA guy so we hit hard, fast and accurate. It was a blast. Took until 1993 until I joined the SCA, but I have been hooked since.

Yeah, I think my main problem was that I went as a SCAdian expecting SCAdian style fighting.

I'll probably give it another shot but it will definitely not become my main game.

If anything, I owe Dagorhir because it made me fall back in love with the SCA.