Limited Grappling Experiment [SCA]

[Jon Barber]

frère jean-michel is very wise, and should be heeded in this matter.

I would recommend beginning with learning to fall, in and out of armor. Even if we are not taking people to the ground, accidents happen and falling is a reasonable skill set to have prior to authorization.

.

I also agree that it shouldn't be a 'lowest common denominator' auth. It should be *ADVANCED*. Cerebral flatulence - perhaps require some type of modern training?

Modern grappling training, from compliant aikido to competitive judo, teaches you how to fall. NOT how to fall in armor.

[Palymar]

There are too many people in the SCA that I barely trust to hit me with Rattan.

The idea of letting those people grapple with me sends a cold shiver up my spine.

[Baron Alejandro]

Modern grappling training, from compliant aikido to competitive judo, teaches you how to fall. NOT how to fall in armor.

Very true! But, gotta start somewhere, right? Is there any group out there that teaches one how to fall down in armour?

[jester]

Modern grappling training, from compliant aikido to competitive judo, teaches you how to fall. NOT how to fall in armor.

Very true! But, gotta start somewhere, right? Is there any group out there that teaches one how to fall down in armour?

ARMA and AEMMA are the only two groups I know of in the US. And both of those groups have fairly small sets of hardcore guys that engage in that sort of activity. I know that I learned how to fall with heavy headgear when I was going through Airborne School in the US Army. I also know that I lived on soup for three days because my neck muscles were so swollen I couldn't swallow solid food.

This would work just fine out of armor or in armor with folks who understand that injuring your opponent shows a lack of skill on your part. But in the general fighting population of the SCA? Not so good.

[Aaron]

Hang on...jousters often fall off horses.

[benz72]

Hang on...jousters often fall off horses.

And many (most?) of us already fall down in armor from time to time. There are a lot of bad way to fall... but even if there never were any grappling, we'd need to deal with that anyway.

[benz72]

There are too many people in the SCA that I barely trust to hit me with Rattan.

The idea of letting those people grapple with me sends a cold shiver up my spine.

Would this not be a voluntary advanced authorization that allowed people who were interested in the techniques to develop them without requiring those who were not interested to adopt them?
Do we not have, as a fundamental rule of the list, a declaration that one may decline to fight against a person or weapon without giving a reason?

[RoaK]

Well said...

There are too many people in the SCA that I barely trust to hit me with Rattan.

The idea of letting those people grapple with me sends a cold shiver up my spine.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Though in previous threads a LOT of people (including Aaron, IIRC) would like to see falling down go away....

And many (most?) of us already fall down in armor from time to time. There are a lot of bad way to fall... but even if there never were any grappling, we'd need to deal with that anyway.

.

[Edwin]

Very true! But, gotta start somewhere, right? Is there any group out there that teaches one how to fall down in armour?

I'm not a group but my personal test for armor is whether I can do a full complement of rolls and breakfalls while wearing it.

I never quite made it to performing aerial rolls with armor.

[Aaron]

Though in previous threads a LOT of people (including Aaron, IIRC) would like to see falling down go away....

And many (most?) of us already fall down in armor from time to time. There are a lot of bad way to fall... but even if there never were any grappling, we'd need to deal with that anyway.

.

True! I do not like falling down "dead". I don't mind falling down though "live". There is a difference.

There are myriad ways to injure yourself though. I'd suggest just mano-e-mano, no ego (no awards, etc....), closely watched, starting from "groundwork" with daggers or something. Starting flat on your back, can you stab your opponent before either of you get to your feet? Something like that.

With the addition of grappling it does make playing safe more difficult. We'd be moving into virgin territory without a map.

-Aaron

[Aaron]

What's the Tuchux injury rate like? I wrestled at the Tuchux Charity Tournament without injury and nobody got injured.

-Aaron

[Kilkenny]

There are too many people in the SCA that I barely trust to hit me with Rattan.

The idea of letting those people grapple with me sends a cold shiver up my spine.

Would this not be a voluntary advanced authorization that allowed people who were interested in the techniques to develop them without requiring those who were not interested to adopt them?
Do we not have, as a fundamental rule of the list, a declaration that one may decline to fight against a person or weapon without giving a reason?

Yeah - but that doesn't mean you can get a free pass in a tournament. We're always free to not fight. It is not guaranteed to be without consequence.

However, right now we're only discussing an experiment, which means only those people specifically cleared to engage would even be allowed to try it with one another.

Should it reach the point of being a "standard" authorization then one of the appropriate responses would be to not authorize in it. I would hope our system would have the good sense to make sure that grappling only occurred when *both* fighters were authorized for it.

[Kilkenny]

Hang on...jousters often fall off horses.

Christopher Reeve.

[Kilkenny]

[quote="Jon Barber"] (1) IF I can escape with a full grown “peasantâ€

[benz72]

[quote="Kilkenny] I would hope our system would have the good sense to make sure that grappling only occurred when *both* fighters were authorized for it.[/quote]

Absolutely.... authorizations can specifically be to use a weapon or to fight AGAINST a weapon... I cannot think of a better example of when to use that other half of the rule.

[Sigurd]

Great Thread Folks!!

I like the idea of expanding the standard SCA ruleset in certain constrained conditions, however I think we need to make sure that we are starting from the basis of what we have already, which seems to work alright;)

I've fought in some of the 'submission' tournaments mrks has run in the past, where you defeat your opponent by striking them 3 landed blows, driving them to the ground or from the erics. Something like this may be a starting point for such a trial.

One of my most memorable sets, from Pennsic 36, was as set of Glaive pick ups I had with a gentle from the East whose name I totally forget. I lost track of how many times we swapped weapons, 'fell' down, disarmed each other, or generally caused mayhem. We took measure of what the other was doing, matched it, reacted and moved things up a notch. With the level of trust we developed, it was reasonably safe, but it evolved all on its own.

So I would suggest using some of the already existing rules (landed blows) , and adding things a step or two at a time. Examples of things to add would be manipulation of arms/legs by pushing / pulling, either with a weapon or a closed fist(no strikes), disarms, grasping shields / weapon shafts, and progress to throws/sweeps or?

Or basically, take what happens at the COTT, and run with that a bit...

My 2cents

Sig

[Kenji]

Under these rules, authorized combatants could use open hands, arms, elbows, head and torso to redirect, push, and otherwise manipulate each other, so long as nothing is grabbed (except for hilts & hafts... and your own blade) or bashed (except with the business end of a weapon), nobody is knocked down, and all required body parts remain covered.

Only one big issue with this:
I am a small of stature fellow with little natural padding - especially when compared to a large portion of SCA membership

If all these new rule allow is "to redirect, push, and otherwise manipulate each other" - this sounds like it is just allowing for push and shove tactics rather than grappling. If so, then I am seriously going to be disadvantaged - I simply dont have the weight to throw around.

Much of the grappling I train in relies on superior movement, overbalancing techniques and causing pain and joint locks

[Jon Barber]

I'm working from that "sitting on my chest" starting point. If I'm there sitting on his chest, I wonder how he'll stop my dagger to his groin.

The mount (tate shiho gatame) isn't strictly just sitting on his chest, but you do have control and a very dominant position. Not sure how you'd reach behind you and stab them in the groin since I've never tried it *g*. I'd go for under the helmet or the eye slots. Something like knee on belly (uki gatame) though, sure, NP.

If I'm in his BJJ style guard, I know he isn't stopping the dagger to the groin.

Not unless they're a competent blue belt or equivalent with a good guard game who understands in this situation to pull a tight closed guard and maintain wrist control. Of course, this is purely defensive unless you transition it into a do-jime or some such.

All of which puts the possibility of avoiding the dagger to the groin outside the hands of the .01% (or whatever it is - I have no idea other than it's probably small) of SCA'ers with actual good grappling skills who can pull that sort of thing off in armor. Your point stands .

[Aaron]

Hang on...jousters often fall off horses.

Christopher Reeve.

Beautiful eloquent brevity

[Aaron]

The "armoured lord on the ground" experienment isn't a brag. It's an experiment.

I expect that if the "peasant" is sitting on my chest and attempts to go for the groin, I'd just buck them off like I would during combatives when someone gets off balance. When they lean back or twist to get a shot to the groin, they will be off balance. When that happens, I should have my heels as close to butt as possible. Then as the weight shifts I "buck" the "peasant" off to the left or right and achieve side control as they tumble or achieve my feet.

If the "peasant" is in the classic combatives guard where my legs are locked around their torso, the groin shot becomes really difficult. They stand an amazing chance of gutting themselves. I'd block the eyes with one hand and the groin with the other, attempting to control the dagger and get them to gut themselves.

If the "peasant" is in side control I've got a lot more concerns IMO, and side control is far more realistic as a starting position. Now their head is blocking my view of their other arm. The solution is scoop towards my own groin and lock them in place.

And, he would have to stab through the mail drape and steel codpiece to get the groin. It's a difficult target IMO.

I think the A&S and marshal would approve of this test, if done appropriately. I'd require eye protection and a gorget for my opponent, just in case a piece of armour goes where it shouldn't.

And then we'd have to look at varying weights of peasant. I doubt I could move if Blackbow had any sort of control. It would be like moving a small truck -- I'd have to convince the truck to move willingly.

With respect,

-Aaron

[co10Broek]

Aaron,
The rules for historic martial arts on the A&S side of the house are fairly specific. If the "bout" is not choreographed it is not A&S. If you were to do this as an A&S entry (and I think it should be done) pick a master, see what they say about ground fighting (some of them say a lot) and extrapolate that into an entry. You may want to take some practice time and allow improved responses but the entry must be choreographed. If you need any additional help feel free to PM me.

Jean-Michel

[Aaron]

Bummer.

I thought one armoured and one unarmoured guy on the ground wrestling with the most dangerous weapon being a ripe bannana would be safe enough.

Once I've tried it locally "outside of the SCA realm" I'll look at the A&S. But if it's choreographed it's not an experiement.

-Aaron

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

There are too many people in the SCA that I barely trust to hit me with Rattan.

The idea of letting those people grapple with me sends a cold shiver up my spine.

I have to agree with this statement. I am, however, intrigued at the concept of grappling in armour.

I think if it were to be something included as an additional authorization, there are a large number of considerations that would need to be measured. I can see months of training required learning proper throws, grabs, falling, etc... before being able to authorize

[Kilkenny]

Bummer.

I thought one armoured and one unarmoured guy on the ground wrestling with the most dangerous weapon being a ripe bannana would be safe enough.

Once I've tried it locally "outside of the SCA realm" I'll look at the A&S. But if it's choreographed it's not an experiement.

-Aaron

The most dangerous weapon there (aside from the caveat that it's the person, not the weapon, blah, blah ) .... is the armour.

I've actually got a bit of a scar on the inside of my right knee from where I, in garb with light fabric trews, demonstrated a takedown on a fellow in armour. When I put my right knee behind his left knee and gave his shoulders a push, the fan on his kneecop scored a nice line on the inside of my knee.

Oddly enough, it didn't break the skin, but the blood was there beneath, the unbroken skin subsequently peeled in the manner of a healing scab.

Point being, one of the biggest hazards we'll run into doing this is the unexpected meeting of flesh with steel.

[Aaron]

Basically, "Ripe bananas and armour don't kill people, people with ripe bananas and armour kill people?"

[Palymar]

Should it reach the point of being a "standard" authorization then one of the appropriate responses would be to not authorize in it. I would hope our system would have the good sense to make sure that grappling only occurred when *both* fighters were authorized for it.

Sorry,

I have very little faith in the Authorization process or the Good Sense of the average SCA Marshal. These are opininons formed from over 2 decades of SCA marhsalling experience.

Personally, I wouldn't mind experimenting with more grappling and other period techniques, but I absolutely do not see SCA combat as the venue.

[Aaron]

I would agree. I would not like to see it as a compition. But as an experiement I'm all for it and looking forward to making my case...and videotaping the "bouts".

We'd need ten bouts to get enough data IMO, and various weights of fighters, but none out of the "normal" range for weight from the War of the Roses, please. So that limits the weight class to about 260 lbs IMO.

Would it help if my "opponent" was lightly armoured, as a "levey" would be?

-Aaron

[Kel Rekuta]

Modern grappling training, from compliant aikido to competitive judo, teaches you how to fall. NOT how to fall in armor.

Do you find it that different, Jon? A bad fall is a bad fall. I find most of the throws in armour are balance manipulations. They are not dead lifts and tosses that spin the victim head over heels to land on the neck. Being thrown on your belly or ass isn't that disastrous. Not knowing when your balance is gone and trying too late to recover it usually is.

FWIW, I strongly disagree with SCAdians trying to integrate armoured grappling into their game. The minimum training standard for SCA combat is too low. The SCA doesn't have enough experienced wrestling/grappling participants that marshal. Paul B. knows of what he speaks. Listen to him.

[Kel Rekuta]

Very true! But, gotta start somewhere, right? Is there any group out there that teaches one how to fall down in armour?

ARMA and AEMMA are the only two groups I know of in the US. [/quote]

AEMMA and OMSG are in Ontario Canada. Les Maîtres d'Armes are in Gatineau Quebec. Chicago Sword Guild does some armour and grappling so I would expect they practice falling in kit too. We all practice interpretations of Fiore dei Liberi's art. Plenty grappling knowledge is required in every circumstance. One becomes comfortable with hitting the ground, it is unavoidable in training.

[jester]

Very true! But, gotta start somewhere, right? Is there any group out there that teaches one how to fall down in armour?

ARMA and AEMMA are the only two groups I know of in the US.

AEMMA and OMSG are in Ontario Canada. Les Maîtres d'Armes are in Gatineau Quebec. Chicago Sword Guild does some armour and grappling so I would expect they practice falling in kit too. We all practice interpretations of Fiore dei Liberi's art. Plenty grappling knowledge is required in every circumstance. One becomes comfortable with hitting the ground, it is unavoidable in training.

I've been waiting for someone to correct me on that. North America.

[Leopold der Wolf]

If I was going to put grappling in..this is what my ideas would be.

1. You want to hit a wide audience. If you just wanted to do period grappling with alot of dangerous/joint destroying possibilities you'd have a small group and this would just be an arts and science show.

Ideas on how to allow grappling without a huge increase of breaking someone.

1. No trips or uncontrolled throws (Any throw would be performed with the thrower exercising control by holding the opponent and letting them drop slowly).

2. Full hand protection (I recommend hockey gloves or some other kind of "soft" protection like riot gloves. This would allow you to strike/punch, grab and manipulate people without ripping their clothes apart, cutting them with metal plates etc. It'd also let you strike unarmored areas without the likelihood of breaking a bone.

Basically my vision of SCA grappling would be to allow users to take their hands and grab weapons, shield, pin limbs, push and in a controlled manner bring people to the ground (Which to me would be a kill). It'd also allow some striking with the fists to the body/face etc that would not be a kill so much as part of a technique to give you time to recover your weapon/back up weapon.

No arm bars, joint locks, submissions or other UFC stuff. Because it doesn't seem likely that we'd be doing this in a padded gym with incredibly knowledgeable hand-to-hand fighters allowing stuff like that just seems like a quick way for some poor guy to get his arm broken.

[Kilkenny]

I would agree. I would not like to see it as a compition. But as an experiement I'm all for it and looking forward to making my case...and videotaping the "bouts".

We'd need ten bouts to get enough data IMO, and various weights of fighters, but none out of the "normal" range for weight from the War of the Roses, please. So that limits the weight class to about 260 lbs IMO.

Would it help if my "opponent" was lightly armoured, as a "levey" would be?

-Aaron

Aaron, 10 bouts between selected individuals ? Would you seriously consider that quantity of data for any radiological study ?

I'm curious about your apparent focus on this being armoured vs unarmoured, when the focus in period manuals seems (in my experience, anyone with contrary knowledge, please enlighten me ) to be on either Armoured vs Armoured or unarmoured vs unarmoured.

Weight class limitation is either a defining characteristic that prevents this ever mainstreaming as part of SCA combat (not that I'm arguing that it should) or something we should not try to insert until/unless it becomes somehow unavoidable that disparate size offers a defining advantage (or safety hazard) not seen in our standard combat.

On a personal note - there are people I think it would be a blast to do this with. I'm not at all confident that those people would necessarily feel the same way about me Read that as putting me on board with HG Palymar about *trusting people* to do this.

I'm aware that Greg Mele (Chicago Sword Guild) had a serious injury during grappling. I don't know details, but I do understand Greg to be a serious student and recognized as highly competent practitioner. I think anyone contemplating introducing this kind of activity in an SCA context would benefit greatly from contacting some of the established groups that have been working on it for some time.

[Jon Barber]

Modern grappling training, from compliant aikido to competitive judo, teaches you how to fall. NOT how to fall in armor.

Do you find it that different, Jon? A bad fall is a bad fall. I find most of the throws in armour are balance manipulations. They are not dead lifts and tosses that spin the victim head over heels to land on the neck. Being thrown on your belly or ass isn't that disastrous. Not knowing when your balance is gone and trying too late to recover it usually is.

I can manipulate myself into falling safely a lot more easily in a gi or rashguard and shorts than in even padded textile armor and a fencing mask - I've never tried it with a full kit. I blame this on insufficient practice falling with protective gear; it does change things such as RoM, how I can tuck my head, etc. that aren't insurmountable but take practice.

I agree, good ukemi keeps falls from turning disastrous and I've seen a class (Colin Richards, maybe?) on how to fall in armor that uses the same skills. But it was good, fitted armor and some one who spent a LOT of time working on how to fall in it IIRC.

What I think is likely to happen is, as Gavin mentions, typical SCA armor will bite people in many places or even cause a joint to not move the way it's supposed to, in addition to changing their balance and movement. This is speculation on my part and I'd happily be proven wrong.

[Jon Barber]

I'm aware that Greg Mele (Chicago Sword Guild) had a serious injury during grappling. I don't know details, but I do understand Greg to be a serious student and recognized as highly competent practitioner. I think anyone contemplating introducing this kind of activity in an SCA context would benefit greatly from contacting some of the established groups that have been working on it for some time.

You can read the details of Greg's injury here.