Limited Grappling Experiment [SCA]

For those of us who wish to talk about the many styles and facets of recreating Medieval armed combat.
mongrel
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Post by mongrel »

Aaron wrote:What's the Tuchux injury rate like? I wrestled at the Tuchux Charity Tournament without injury and nobody got injured.

-Aaron


Our fighting in general is no more dangerous than yours. When we grapple its not always to kill. Say me and another dog are squared up and he's to close for me to get a good solid blow, I kick him or punch him to get some distance and then strike with a good shot because i was able to use what i had available to me to win. We get injured but no worse than at pennsic or any other event. . broken bones occasionally, bruises and whatnot. im all for grappling (obviously)and i've never had a bad experience with it.
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Post by co10Broek »

Leopold wrote:
1. No trips or uncontrolled throws (Any throw would be performed with the thrower exercising control by holding the opponent and letting them drop slowly).


Uhm NO and No. If we are going to half ass throw people and attempt to stop the appropriate place is before balance is broken. Otherwise a throw should be a throw, your attempt to slow me down and exercise control over my body prevents me from falling safely.

Leopold further wrote:
2. Full hand protection (I recommend hockey gloves or some other kind of "soft" protection like riot gloves. This would allow you to strike/punch, grab and manipulate people without ripping their clothes apart, cutting them with metal plates etc. It'd also let you strike unarmored areas without the likelihood of breaking a bone.


Dear God no. A) Hockey gloves are an abomination before God. B) While soft gloves may allow us to punch our friends, they do little for saving our fingers from rattan.

Leopold concluded with:
Basically my vision of SCA grappling would be to allow users to take their hands and grab weapons, shield, pin limbs, push and in a controlled manner bring people to the ground (Which to me would be a kill). It'd also allow some striking with the fists to the body/face etc that would not be a kill so much as part of a technique to give you time to recover your weapon/back up weapon.

No arm bars, joint locks, submissions or other UFC stuff. Because it doesn't seem likely that we'd be doing this in a padded gym with incredibly knowledgeable hand-to-hand fighters allowing stuff like that just seems like a quick way for some poor guy to get his arm broken.


So I can manipulate your joint but not lock it and somehow lead you safely to the ground (Are we doing Aikido or adding more historic European techniques? :D ) While I would object to locking the knee (even sport Judo doesn't do this anymore) Joint manipulations are part of the corpus of work and can be done safely, as long as we have a SOLID method of acknowledging submission.

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Edwin
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Post by Edwin »

No trips or uncontrolled throws (Any throw would be performed with the thrower exercising control by holding the opponent and letting them drop slowly).


Yeah, I'd ditto with co10Broek here.

There's a reason one of the training axioms in a good judo school is that the person being thrown is responsible for their own safety. Putting responsibility on the person doing the throw will almost certainly lead to more injuries not fewer.
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Post by Kilkenny »

Jon Barber wrote:
Kilkenny wrote: I'm aware that Greg Mele (Chicago Sword Guild) had a serious injury during grappling. I don't know details, but I do understand Greg to be a serious student and recognized as highly competent practitioner. I think anyone contemplating introducing this kind of activity in an SCA context would benefit greatly from contacting some of the established groups that have been working on it for some time.


You can read the details of Greg's injury here.


Thanks for that, Jon. I hope everyone takes the time to read what Greg has to say there. It's important. Literally life saving important.
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Post by benz72 »

What are the rules for conducting experiments at Pennsic?

It would seem that if you want to find:
a) a 'critical mass' of interested participants
b) a wide diversity of viewpoints and customs
c) a place with nearby on call medical staff

Then that might be the venue to shoot for.

Now that I'm thinking about it... whay are't the big wars (and Pennsic in particular) standard meeting places for experimantal weaopns and techniques? It would seem simple anough to have a designated field for 'wierd stuff only' (presumably the one closest to the chiurgeouns tent).
Or is this the case and I've simply not noticed it?
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Post by jester »

benz72 wrote:What are the rules for conducting experiments at Pennsic?

It would seem that if you want to find:
a) a 'critical mass' of interested participants
b) a wide diversity of viewpoints and customs
c) a place with nearby on call medical staff

Then that might be the venue to shoot for.

Now that I'm thinking about it... whay are't the big wars (and Pennsic in particular) standard meeting places for experimantal weaopns and techniques? It would seem simple anough to have a designated field for 'wierd stuff only' (presumably the one closest to the chiurgeouns tent).
Or is this the case and I've simply not noticed it?


My understanding of the process for proposing changes in the rules is this:
1) Come up with a good idea and really think it through.
2) Get together with some friends at some place that is COMPLETELY NOT SCA and start experimenting.
3) Invite someone who is friendly with your KEM and/or a big name fighter to observe/participate in the experiment.
4) Have your sponsor approach the KEM.

That's to get it to the first checkpoint. After that, you will need to coordinate with your sponsor and the KEM to bring the issue to the SEM and propose a plan for experimentation. Be prepared to do *ALL* of the legwork of running down answers to questions they throw at you. Have a clear proposal ready to put in front of them so that they don't have to do *ANY* work for you. Expect minor experiments to take 12-18 months to go through this process. Expect major experiments to take years to get approved.
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Post by benz72 »

jester wrote:
benz72 wrote:What are the rules for conducting experiments at Pennsic?

It would seem that if you want to find:
a) a 'critical mass' of interested participants
b) a wide diversity of viewpoints and customs
c) a place with nearby on call medical staff

Then that might be the venue to shoot for.

Now that I'm thinking about it... whay are't the big wars (and Pennsic in particular) standard meeting places for experimantal weaopns and techniques? It would seem simple anough to have a designated field for 'wierd stuff only' (presumably the one closest to the chiurgeouns tent).
Or is this the case and I've simply not noticed it?


My understanding of the process for proposing changes in the rules is this:
1) Come up with a good idea and really think it through.
2) Get together with some friends at some place that is COMPLETELY NOT SCA and start experimenting.
3) Invite someone who is friendly with your KEM and/or a big name fighter to observe/participate in the experiment.
4) Have your sponsor approach the KEM.

That's to get it to the first checkpoint. After that, you will need to coordinate with your sponsor and the KEM to bring the issue to the SEM and propose a plan for experimentation. Be prepared to do *ALL* of the legwork of running down answers to questions they throw at you. Have a clear proposal ready to put in front of them so that they don't have to do *ANY* work for you. Expect minor experiments to take 12-18 months to go through this process. Expect major experiments to take years to get approved.


I'm sorry to have worded the question so poorly.
What I meant to ask was, given that there are approved experiments in progress with multi-kingdom implications is there any utility in conducting a portion of those experiments in a place such as Pennsic and if so, what are the rules for including them in the war (NOT in the battle scenarios, just AT the war where they could get more exposure in the ecumenical sense)?

I appologize for both the questions' ambiguous wording and derailing nature.
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Post by jester »

benz72 wrote:I'm sorry to have worded the question so poorly.
What I meant to ask was, given that there are approved experiments in progress with multi-kingdom implications is there any utility in conducting a portion of those experiments in a place such as Pennsic and if so, what are the rules for including them in the war (NOT in the battle scenarios, just AT the war where they could get more exposure in the ecumenical sense)?

I appologize for both the questions' ambiguous wording and derailing nature.


About the same. Think it through, get with some folks, get a sponsor, contact the EM for the event and make a formal request for time on the schedule of available spaces using the mechanism provided on the Pennsic website.
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Post by Kilkenny »

benz72 wrote:
I'm sorry to have worded the question so poorly.
What I meant to ask was, given that there are approved experiments in progress with multi-kingdom implications is there any utility in conducting a portion of those experiments in a place such as Pennsic and if so, what are the rules for including them in the war (NOT in the battle scenarios, just AT the war where they could get more exposure in the ecumenical sense)?

I appologize for both the questions' ambiguous wording and derailing nature.


My expectation is that people involved in the experiments and those responsible for evaluating reports and making decisions are taking advantage of opportunities at the very large events to get together and discuss what is happening in the experiment.

Until it's almost ready to move out of experimental into "live" mode, they probably don't want to be giving them "more exposure". they want to keep strict controls in place, not have random people seeing it thinking it's cool and heading off to make or do whatever the experimental thing might be.
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Ouzel Von Schwartzwolfe
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Post by Ouzel Von Schwartzwolfe »

Hum? the last thing you guys would want to do it have this in the SCA,

The whole point of grappling is to take control of your opponent, to ether drop him on the ground, turn him so you can hit him from behind, break his joints, or disarm him so you can kill him.

anything short of this is a wast of time, and it takes a lot of training to be able to do without doing real damage to each other.

its bad enough that even after years of SCA fighting I have to actively stop myself from kicking kneeing elbowing and punching with the shield etc etc etc.
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Post by Tatsuo Okami »

Kinda skipped ahead...
But Clarification questions:
1: Is the drop over the shoulders spear tactic "Grappling" and therefore illegal? {@}
2: is grabbing your opponents shield edge any different than grabbing the "Haft" (or handle) of a 2 handed weapon? {#}
2.5: Is (or should) grabing a shield edge illegal in your kingdom? {#}
3: Is the "Musashi" shoulder thrust illegal if you do it to your opponents shield? {$}
4: Would you consider a Belly Bump to someones Shield "Grappling" as outlawed by the SCA. {%}


Notes:
@: seen a lot of this... Kind of a bear hug with a spear. Standard close quarter technique in Atenveldt. Only frowned on if you Twist/Throw/or lift your opponent. Had a timing limit (as of 3 years ago)

#: Seen variations on this one. some kingdoms had( Have) a time limit on how long A haft/handle grab is ok for. Used to grab shield edges for a quick tug or body spin (Just like a Shield hook) in Ansteorra all the time ( at least as of 1990).

$: Usually after doing a shoulder thrust to the shield. In Niten Ryu Kenjutsu it a technique aimed at your opponents chest/ribs or Sword arm shoulder. In SCA I use(d) it against my opponents shield.

%: Only done this one a single time (on purpose) CA'ing.... And caught by a rushing fighter, before I could draw my sword. Belly bumped to his shield to get him off me and he fell down. Dead on the ground by another fighter then.
Last edited by Tatsuo Okami on Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Edwin »

4: Would you consider a Belly Bump to someones Shield "Grappling" as outlawed by the SCA.


Speaking only for myself, since I don't find the SCA meaning of grappling to not be accurate...
My answer depends on what happens to the opponent when I bump them. If I didn't knock them off balance, or they didn't fall down, it is IMO legitimate.
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Post by Kilkenny »

Edwin wrote:
4: Would you consider a Belly Bump to someones Shield "Grappling" as outlawed by the SCA.


Speaking only for myself, since I don't find the SCA meaning of grappling to not be accurate...
My answer depends on what happens to the opponent when I bump them. If I didn't knock them off balance, or they didn't fall down, it is IMO legitimate.


Is impacting against a shield in the course of a charge grappling ? I think we all recognize the answer to that is "of course not".

Unless someone has a prehensile gut that manages to grab hold of the shield :shock: :shock: No, it's not grappling, imo.
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Post by Palymar »

Tatsuo Okami wrote:Kinda skipped ahead...
But Clarification questions:
1: Is the drop over the shoulders spear tactic "Grappling" and therefore illegal? {@}
2: is grabbing your opponents shield edge any different than grabbing the "Haft" (or handle) of a 2 handed weapon? {#}
2.5: Is (or should) grabing a shield edge illegal in your kingdom? {#}
3: Is the "Musashi" shoulder thrust illegal if you do it to your opponents shield? {$}
4: Would you consider a Belly Bump to someones Shield "Grappling" as outlawed by the SCA. {%}


1) As long as you are not using your arms to hold your opponent in place or using the haft to pull your opponent into your body and hold them against your body, your fine.

2) Grabbing the shield edge is not permitted.

2.5) Grabbing the shield is not permitted at the Society level, therefore no kingdom should be permitting this.

3) If this is using your shoulder as a way of deliberately striking a shield with a part of your body to manipulate your opponents shield, that is not permitted.

4) See #3 above. The use of ANY part of your body to *deliberately* manipulate your opponents shield is not permitted.

To use any part or your body to *deliberately* manipulate any part of your opponents body is also not permitted.

Is that clear enough? :)
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Post by Diglach Mac Cein »

Besides, if we allow the "Belly Bump", some of us would be re-classified as siege weaponry.....

:D


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Post by Edwin »

I could belly bump, or hip bump, someone's shield in such a way to intentially cause them to fall down. Intentions are the critical difference, for me, in whether something is grappling or not. I can't say charging in a melee is or is not grappling... it all depends on the combination of intention and consequence.
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Post by Gaston de Vieuxchamps »

Palymar wrote:Is that clear enough? :)


It's certainly clear but I don't think it's accurate. I believe statements by the KEM directly contradict several of your statements. Now under Robert of Auk you probably would have been right, though I've personally witnessed him do several of those things :-(
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Post by Gaston de Vieuxchamps »

I've really enjoyed reading this and the other "grappling" threads.

I've been doing a lot of competitive armoured grappling over the last year.

There are certainly risks. And I agree the SCA is not the place for full-scale grappling but people's visceral responses to even the word "grapple" is unfortunate espicially in light of the fact that no one here seems to even share a common definition of the word.
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Post by Palymar »

Gaston de Vieuxchamps wrote:
Palymar wrote:Is that clear enough? :)


It's certainly clear but I don't think it's accurate. I believe statements by the KEM directly contradict several of your statements. Now under Robert of Auk you probably would have been right, though I've personally witnessed him do several of those things :-(


I am quite certain it is accurate for the Middle Kingdom. I
I would like to hear what parts you think are inaccurate at the Society level. I work hard to current with Society standards so if I am in error, I need to know.

I am aware that there may well be some Kingdoms that are not following Society standards as closely as other Kingdoms.
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