Is there such a thing as riveted spring steel mail?

[RoaK]

I'd like to know...I

[Iain (Bunny) Ruadh]

like all things .. suspect it could be made by someone .. question is always the $. Of the top of my head I don't know of one .. but that doesn't mean someone can't make it .. they might just not offer up for sale due to limited demand (i.e. custom order thingie)

[carlyle]

I'd like to know...I

Historically? Not that I am aware -- and "spring steel", or high-carbon steel, in any quantity during the age of mail was not, to the best of my knowledge, used in armor construction (being mainly reserved to weapons).

For reenactment? I haven't seen any, but I have to ask -- why would you want it? For the sake of our Play, rivited mild is more than adequate for either rattan baton or blunt steel combat. The availability of stainless obviates even the need for maintenance. Spring steel would not be any lighter, would likely be more susceptible to rust and corrosion, and would not impart any greater strength characteristics with which we should be concerned. I mean, if I wanted to stop bullets, I'd get one of Knuut's titanium hauberks -- oh, wait, I HAVE one of Knuut's titanium hauberks ... AoC

[Steve S.]

Historically, the metallurgical makeup of most extant maille is that of low-carbon wrought iron. As I recall, there are a few examples of maille with sufficient carbon in it to be classified as steel, I can't remember if there was evidence of heat treating or not.

There is written ancient documentation describing carburizing and heat treating maille specifically, so we can be fairly certain that it was done.

Modernly, unless you are going to be using this for actual protection against cutting weapons, I can see no advantage to doing it. To the eye, you won't be able to tell any difference. In weight, you won't be able to tell any difference. In defense against blunt trauma, you won't be able to tell any difference. In strength and resistance to rivet failure, you probably won't be able to tell any difference.

Steve

[^]

Steve is right you could certainly carburize it but the thing is this. Mail needs density of weave. So you want as little gaping in the rings as is reasonable so staying with steels won't help you as I assume your still trying to drop weight from your kit. Finding a way to make aluminum or titanium look steelish is your best bet there.

[chef de chambre]

FYI, there is documentation of mail made of steel, in the household accounts of the Dukes of Burgundy. Specifically 'Braies d'Acier', mail gorgerins d'acier, and haubergeons. Claude Gaier's 'armour manufacturing in the ancient principalities of Beligium references the manuscript accounts, and quotes from them.

While it could be a loose use of 'steel' and 'iron' interchangably, I don't think it is, as the cost for these items runs mutiple times the cost of the regular iron ones in the accounts.

[Charles Alexander]

Check out http://theringlord.com/

Rings, stainless, spring temper.

Not assembled, but these spring stainless rings are awesome.

I happen to have a butted vest of 16 guage spring temper stainless rings made by this manufacturer and they are awesome.

Not weapon or SCA tested, but working with maille gives you an idea of the strength of a ring, and spring stainless is much stronger than the typical 16 gauge galvanized you'll usually see in maille.

Almost as good if not as good as 14 gauge regular stainless(by the same manufacturer who have darn good stainless rings)

Still has enough weight to it so it doesn't feel too light like alum or titanium, but noticeably lighter.

[RoaK]

Thank you for the response guys... sorry for the poorly formatted question and I love the historic references. No doubt some where; some place; somebody made chain mail from steel, regardless of the price in recourses and money.

The reason I asked this question was I wanted to know if anybody made this stuff and is it lighter than ss riveted mail. In my case a few pounds would make a difference. I’m looking at a skirt and a short sleeved half shirt to fit under a COP. While not totally cosmetic the mail would not be the primary protection for these areas from SCA rattan combat. Check out the picture.

[Duke Icefalcon]

I do not know of any spring steel maille available.

If you are looking to recreate the look in the picture, you might want to consider getting a maille skirt and some sleeves.

We have both available....

Cheers!

Ice

[Murdock]

If your looking for weight reduction for fighting

Titanium and Aluminum may be a better more avalible alternative


For authenticity sake....pretty sure as everyone else has said

it was mainly iron

For that matter

anyone sell iron mail?

[^]

I believe that technically steel is lighter then stainless steel but I don't know by how much. But from what you've said in the past go with a modern metal, your doctor will be happier with you.

[Lord_Wolf]

You could contact Depeeka. These are the guys that Von Sussen imports from. I aquired a catalog from them a few years back, and they said they could do mail in many different metals. Brass, copper, steel, butted, round rivited, flat rivited, and I even saw mention of spring.

So I would go and contact them via their contact info and ask.

http://www.deepeeka.com/armoury/documen ... php?cat=10

[Sean Powell]

I believe that technically steel is lighter then stainless steel but I don't know by how much. But from what you've said in the past go with a modern metal, your doctor will be happier with you.

on average mild steel run .283 lbs/cu-in. Stainless runs .284-.286 lbs/cu-in. That's a minimal difference. A 283 pound person is not signifigantly lighter then a 286 pound person when they step on your body during a fight.

If you want spring-steel maile, I would recomend ordering mild-steel maile, roll up and place in a coffee can, pour in 'casenite powder' and shake the can frequently so it flows down and completely submerges the mail and touches every ring. Bring to a friend with a forge or did a hole in the ground with a pipe coming in from the side, add charcoal, fire and air to heat the can up to 1600F (follow directions on side of casenite can). Maile is so thin it will take minutes rather then hours for the carbon to sink in but you need to get the can hot all the way through. (come to think of it a kiln would also work). Net result is case hardened steel... Case hardening typicly goes .040 to .060 deep but you are infusing carbon from both sides and the links are probably 030" thick so you will have solid 'spring steel' maile.

Damn. That's actually a decent idea. I'm tempted to do this now.

Sean

[darksole03]

Common spring steel is just anodized steel. When the steel is case hardened it holds its original shape. The Ring Lord carries black anodized stainless steel.


http://theringlord.com/cart/shopdisplay ... 1526526371[/url]

[Sean Powell]

Common spring steel is just anodized steel. When the steel is case hardened it holds its original shape. The Ring Lord carries black anodized stainless steel.


http://theringlord.com/cart/shopdisplay ... 1526526371[/url]

Hello and welcome to the archive. I think either you have misunderstood the ring-lord's web page or he may have gotten some information wrong. From the wikipedia article on anodizing:

Anodizing, or anodising, is an electrolytic passivation process used to increase the thickness of the natural oxide layer on the surface of metal parts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anodize

Spring steel is the effect of introducing carbon to the body of the steel, not oxides to the surface of the steel.

It IS possible to Anodize stainless steel since the protective layer on stainless is actually a shiny layer of chromium oxide... but that has nothing to do with how springly the stainless is or isn't.

Sean

[RoaK]

Thanks guys, I think I'll go with the welded titanium... One last question was any late 14th century mail of a welded consturction?

[Charles Alexander]

Does spring stainless you're referring to contain silicon as an alloy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_steel

I find metallurgy though I don't know much about it.

[Derian le Breton]

One last question was any late 14th century mail of a welded consturction?

I don't believe there is any evidence of welded links in the 14th century.

-Derian.

[Steve S.]

One last question was any late 14th century mail of a welded consturction?

The latest thinking, last time I was in on these discussions, was that solid rings for maille were probably punched out of sheet. Prior to 1400, it was more common to find maille garments made from alternating rows of riveted and solid rings. After 1400, it was more common to have maille garments made entirely from riveted rings.

Forge welding appears to have been used at least in maille of eastern origin:

http://www.forth-armoury.com/photo_gall ... _rings.htm

No welding such as what you are thinking of with welded titanium was ever done historically. An authentic welded ring would look much like a solid ring of iron.

Steve

[Steve S.]

Thank you for the response guys... sorry for the poorly formatted question and I love the historic references. No doubt some where; some place; somebody made chain mail from steel, regardless of the price in recourses and money.

As I said, there is a historical passage that specifically describes converting iron maille into steel maille through carburization. All steel is is iron with carbon added.

This is from a book called Natural Magick, circa 1558:

"Take soft iron armour of small price, and put it into a pot, strewing upon it [soot, and organic powders to supply carbon], cover it, and make a good fire about it: then at the time fit, take the pot with iron pinchers; and striking the pot with a hammer, quench the whole herness red hot in water; for so it becomes most hard ... But, lest the rings of a coat of male [maile] should be broken, and flie in pieces, there must be strength added to the hardness. Workmen call it a return. Take it out of the water, shake it up and down in vinegar, that it may be polished and the colour be made perspicuous: then make red hot a plate of iron, and lay [it] upon the same: when it shows an ash colour, cast it again into the water, and that hardness abated, and it will yield to the stroke more easily: so of a base coat of male, you shall have one that will resist all blows."

The process being described is called "case hardening". It works by allowing carbon to impregnate the outer layer of the iron, converting it to steel. Then it can be heat treated, quenching it to make it hard, and then tempered to make it non-brittle.

You may be interested in my article on wire and maille:

http://www.forth-armoury.com/research/w ... c_wire.htm

The reason I asked this question was I wanted to know if anybody made this stuff and is it lighter than ss riveted mail. In my case a few pounds would make a difference. I’m looking at a skirt and a short sleeved half shirt to fit under a COP. While not totally cosmetic the mail would not be the primary protection for these areas from SCA rattan combat. Check out the picture.

Carbon steel vs. plain iron vs. stainless steel is going to be virtually indistinguishable from each other in weight, provided you are using the same thickness of wire.

The reason why riveted maille is generally lighter in weight than butted maille is because you can use much thinner wire in riveted maille and still have a much stronger product, because the rivets hold the rings closed.

A maille shirt made of .05" diameter wire using 3/8" diameter rings is going to weigh about 15 pounds.

Steve

[Sean Powell]

Does spring stainless you're referring to contain silicon as an alloy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_steel

I find metallurgy though I don't know much about it.

Well it can but that's not necessarily where the strength is coming from. the 10XX series dosn't list silicon as any of the top 5 elements. 5160 does list it at .23% Silicon. And 4130 list Silicone as .15 to .3%... generally I would take this to mean that it is a contaminant not an additive but I'm a Mech-E not a Mat-E.

Stever. That is absolutely FANTASTIC information. I had suspected that case hardening would be possible but I never expected there to be solid documentation never mind a recipe! Casenite is just a commercial source for organic powder to supply carbon. The rest of that description could read like the back of the shipping can that it comes in.

Thank you VERY much. I'm sorely tempted to try this for my new suit. Using a kiln for the return is probably easier then watching for colors.

Sean

[Steve S.]

No problem, Sean!

Steve

[Gregoire de Lyon]

Now here is the question on my mind...

If a person were inclined to make themselves a butted haubergeon and then case harden it, could they not use thinner gauge wire? I would think that the hardened and tempered rings would resist deformation and allow for a lighter weight piece of armor in a more readily produced form (i.e. butted versus rivetted)

[Charles Alexander]

Now here is the question on my mind...

If a person were inclined to make themselves a butted haubergeon and then case harden it, could they not use thinner gauge wire? I would think that the hardened and tempered rings would resist deformation and allow for a lighter weight piece of armor in a more readily produced form (i.e. butted versus rivetted)

16 gauge butted spring stainless certainly holds up a lot better than other butted hauberks I've seen, so yes.

[Sean Powell]

Now here is the question on my mind...

If a person were inclined to make themselves a butted haubergeon and then case harden it, could they not use thinner gauge wire? I would think that the hardened and tempered rings would resist deformation and allow for a lighter weight piece of armor in a more readily produced form (i.e. butted versus rivetted)

Theoretically yes this is possible. I'm swagging the cost to cover my maile fauld in kasenit at about 5lbs of powder. That's about $60 after S&H. It also requires time, a near air-tight metal can or box (old ammo box maybe?) and a source for controlled heat. It's kind of expensive to do for butted maile. To do for riveted maile though. That seems too cool for words.

I spent some time chatting with a blacksmith friend who has worked with Kasenit before. He warned that the process can be erratic. The Kasenit can stick to the steel and be a pain to clean off... still it's better then working with Arsinic which was the predecessor to kasenit. He recommended against the quench and re-temper but instead just do a controlled, limited time exposure. He does this for hammer heads... in this case I'm tempted to NOT believe him. I think that by the time the heat penetrates to the middle of the can and you hold for 30 minutes the outer layer may have been hot for an hour or so. That would mean a very inconsistent treatment. I think it would be better to get full saturation to all the links and then temper them.

Regarding kasenit sticking. He has also done this with charred leather and horse hoof trimmings (he knows a farrier). He said the process was slower but more controllable. I'm thinking that this time the traditional method may be better then the new fancy tech. I've got bunches of scrap leather in the basement from old armor projects. Supposedly you put this stuff in a can with a small hole in it and cook it like making char-cloth for starting flint & steel fires. I'll be damned if I can't get 10lbs of leather scrap from the basement to do this with. That should be enough!

I have the benefit of a lab where I can get steel hardness of test links before, after quench and after temper to see if I am doing the process correctly.

Damn it! I did NOT need another project to work on. I'm too busy already!

Sean

[Cet]

Burning leather stinks. I'd suggest this alternative:

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=1231 ... G_CHARCOAL

[Steve S.]

If a person were inclined to make themselves a butted haubergeon and then case harden it, could they not use thinner gauge wire?

Yes, hardened steel is generally stiffer than unhardened steel.

In the end, however, you will still have a non-historical combat armour made of butted maille.

Damn it! I did NOT need another project to work on. I'm too busy already!

Back when I first started, I had my rings cut by a spring manufacturer, using whatever common steel alloy they had in 18GA. Since they make springs, most of their wire is spring steel. So my coif is actually made from spring steel, as is part of a shirt that I started.

Steve

[Andeerz]

According to cotasdemalla.es in his "historia" section, Julio del Junco, who makes AWESOME maille, mentions that he experimented with hardened maille as he observed that some examples of 14th century maille had sufficient carbon content to be hardened. He says that against arrows, his hardened maille, instead of deforming, would shatter. At least according to his maille vs. arrow tests, a huge factor in defense against arrows is the ability of maille to deform and give a bit. He doesn't mention if the arrows passed through more with the hardened maille, though...

From this I gather that a hardened spring steel hauberk would not only be non-period, but would at least not be any more defensive against things like arrows. Then again, there is a difference in composition of spring-steel alloys and the hardenable steel Julio mentioned. Also, it may be wrong to assume that Julio used spring-steel in the first place for that experiment. Well, just my two cents, and I would trust Julio's info as he sure as hell has done his homework.

[Charles Alexander]

Then again, there is a difference in composition of spring-steel alloys and the hardenable steel Julio mentioned.

Someone should try some arrow tests against modern spring steel maille. The butted rings are easy to come by.

Though butted of any variety wouldn't likely survive arrow contact anyway.

Welded spring steel might be easier to come by than riveted