The Armour Archive

Hi,

In light of the number of armouries who have folded or ceased business with the Archive (West Coast Armoury, Otto’s Armoury, Parts and Technical, Armourworks, Steel Mastery, House of Wolf, Ken Zicker, Hammered Wombat, Galon, Blankenshield, Red Falcon…that's all I could think of off the top of my head), what advice would you give to new and/or established armouries?

My advice would be:

1. Be an “in-stockâ€

seems the best advise so far and by many was - dont do it!

- based on the last couple times some version of this Q has come up the above was a prevailing answer...

BUT you wanna give it a try anyway - dont sell what you dont have unless you can refund the money on demand, stand behind your work, under promiss and over deliver.

Hi there, Adric , I dont agree, buiding armor for a living is the best decision ive ever made. If I was still building houses Id have been off work forthe last year or 2. Aaron that is perfect advice I think, Ive been moving towards exactly what you describe for the last 6 months, My order list is almost gone. Im tired of building custom sized full suits, Im goin to all instock armor asap. Ill mass produce a few different items that I do well and get a stockpile going of them, once I get a pile of instock stuff ready ill be free to work pieces that I want to research and improve. If I do take any comissions (damn few) only half will be paid upfront, other half on completion. Last thing is, Ive learned alot of new stuff my taking jobs that Ive never built before. It forces you to learn things. If it turns out bad you just refund or adjust the price.


Take care

Pitbull

[quote="Aaron"]

1. Be an “in-stockâ€

How about this:

Don't have outrageous sales and take a ton of orders and money unless you actually have the means to follow through.

Oh, and #12:

Build your armour in either stainless steel or spring-stainless for the SCA crowd. This way it can sit on the shelf for a year or more, and the actual item can be on your website waiting for someone who has more money than time. When someone ends up with a "I need it NOW!" situation (like 3 days before crown tournament, their helmet weld splits right down the middle...) they will fork over the dough with a smile.

But the stock can't sit on the shelf and rust or mold....so stainless or spring-stainless is the way to go IMO.

-Aaron

Aaron wrote:Oh, and #12:

Build your armour in either stainless steel or spring-stainless for the SCA crowd. This way it can sit on the shelf for a year or more, and the actual item can be on your website waiting for someone who has more money than time. When someone ends up with a "I need it NOW!" situation (like 3 days before crown tournament, their helmet weld splits right down the middle...) they will fork over the dough with a smile.

But the stock can't sit on the shelf and rust or mold....so stainless or spring-stainless is the way to go IMO.

-Aaron

That guy is over there, in Jersey.

But, we still need "entry level" stuff.

I realize that what you are posting here, Aaron, is the "customers dream armoury", but "off the shelf" doesn't usually work for me.. i have a huge melon, and even the BIG helmets usually end up sub-standard padding on me.. hence why I had Ice make me one.

There's nothing wrong with taking orders. However, _MY_ mantra is I don't take money till you are happy with what I hand you. If I don't have the cash to buy the materials to make it, then i can't afford to make it.

I've owned two small businesses. One flopped, the other was sold and is still running to this day.

If you are taking money from people for your product, you are a business. Even if the involvement is hobby level, you are a business. Treat it as one.

Honestly, the #1 thing that seems to kill people is not being able to cover their orders. If life turns bad and you need to stop armoring for six months or even six years, you can always come back - IF your rep is intact. On the flip side, if you "take a break" for whatever reasons and still owe people a lot of product or money, the damage it does to your rep is incalculable.

I don't think there is anything wrong with made to order product. I think the problems happen when people don't have enough in the bank to cover their orders. Always keep enough funds on hand to cover EVERY order you have. That way, if you fall sick and can't make armor for six months, you can return all those funds with an apology.

"Hey, I broke my arm and here's all your money back" sounds WAY better than "Hey I broke my arm, I don't have your money anymore but I'll get that armor done...someday."

If you take in $1000 in orders and need to spend $500 of that cash on supplies to make those orders, you have a big problem. If you have $1000 in orders just taken in, and need $500 in supplies to make them, then you should have at least $1500 in the bank in your BUSINESS account (never put business funds in a household account!).

Don't touch money from an order until it has arrived and you've verified the client is happy with it.

It's pretty simple. I don't know that it would save an armory (the reasons they go down seem varied, and 95% of small businesses fail in the first five years) but this practice would at least save the armorer's reputation, and allow him to try again once he was back on his feet.

If working custom, don't take deposits. Send pictures of finished product, get paid, then mail product. It's the only way I get any peace of mind when I do commissions. Granted, it's not armour, but clothes worn with armour, so close enough. Years ago I used to take deposits and it ate away at me because of course the money was spent before I finished the work. It hung over me like a storm cloud.

The big one I am learning the hard way this year:

Make sure your workspace is climate controlled. When I finally got setted in here in late Novemer, I never expected more rainy/snow days than clear, most days with highs under 45, lows around 20. I got a big franklin stove in the shop, does not even keep the place warm. Since Christmas I've had 22 inches of rain and 18 inches of snow, welcome to San Diego

Edit: Just realized Owyn said almost the exact same thing, but he said it a bit nicer. So I will just second him.

Biggest rule IMO addressing the bad habit that has caused the failure cascade of many a craftsperson:


- The money the customer paid you in advance or in deposit is NOT your money until they have the item in their hand and they have sent you an e-mail telling you how awesome it is. Keep it in a separate account, don't buy materials with it, don't pay shipping with it, don't use it for rent or your mortgage in the hopes that the "next order" will fill the gap. It is NOT yours. If you have to sell a new item to pay the bills to survive while you complete a month or year old order then you are doing it wrong.

If you don't have enough capital to get through a slow season or cover your bills such that you have to dip into the money paid for an outstanding order then you are not sufficiently financed and you can't effectively and safely run a business. You may squeak by a number of times and get your feet back under you, but eventually the big hit is going to come and your name is going to be added to the hall of shame.

People flake out, people cancel orders, life happens. If you can't cover those eventualities, then as soon as one comes along then all the work you put into growing your business just went poof.

Forgive me if I sound grumpy, this is a simple item that in my opinion has been the core of most of the armoury failures in the last few years that leaves customers shafted and gives armourers in general a bad reputation.

I am just statring with armor, but have learned few things the hard way...
first and foremost, if you live around a newer group, I try to keep a little time to help all of the new guys get started.Give honest advice and try to explain to them that your first suit is exactly that, your first suit. It should fit and be safe, but cheap is the best. I try to get them to come to my shop and work on their stuff with me to see how much work it is and then they are more likely to come to me with their next set and do not have the deer in the headlights look when they come down to pricing. Just my two cents worth.
Edward

Hmm … thought I might chime in on this one although not an armourer, I am a serious armour whore and have run my own business a couple times with success (until big uber corporation and former workmates/bosses come along and wave $ in my face to come back and merc for them).

I’d first suggest anyone thinking of going into biz for themselves stop and think why? Is ti to just cover bills between jobs or are you really really really sick of the office games, etc. If you are just marking time until the next job that’s o.k. but you’ll have to approach it from a different way than if you are trying to walk away forever.

You need to figure out what you like to do, what you want to do and what you can do at the very beginning. They often do not line up. What you like to do might not sell, what you want to do you might not have the skills for (yet) and what you can do might be very dull and boring but still pay your bills while you work on the other two.

Think back to you first job. Unless armouring has been your ‘career/profession’ from the very beginning, odds are you are coming in at the bottom of the heap. This means just like when you first started at your first job, you’ll need to get some training or learn how to do some things. Few will be able to go from learning how to put hammer on anvil to being able to do custom work such as Windrose, Historic or White Mountain let alone becoming a Thaden. All of the above worked and practiced alot to get where they are at. You will too.

Somethings you can’t cut corners on. You pay some professionals for their experience and to let you spend your time on what you do best … making things. Yeah you can learn accounting and business law .. but you didn’t get into this to do that. You go into it to do what you either have a skill in or what you love and want to do more of. Find the professional in the legal and accounting fields that have experience with small businesses (home/hobby/crafts) and consider it $ well spent, just like getting a very good durable tool. And remember those fields are just like metalwork .. an industrial metal worker is not the same as an armourer or silversmith … just as various lawyers and accountants specialize. Take the time to find the right one and not just the first one you find in the yellow pages. It’s worth it .. trust me!! They will help you know what things you can write off come tax time and what documents/receipts you need to keep. Same for legal, they can catch the horrible contracts/agreements before you get roped in and also help you CYA in today's litigatious world.

Time management .. very important. You need to be able to clearly define the difference between ‘work’ and ‘Work’ … 4 hours surfing for examples of armour and researching is not the same as actually hammering out pieces. Yes they contribute but it’s not something you can sell off to get $. When you are farther down the road you can bill for it, but generally it comes out of your time and not ‘Work’ time.

Tools and resources. ‘You get what you pay for’ is always a golden rule. Good reliable tools and raw material often costs more than the ‘basics’ … e.g. muslin vs. linen/wool. Mild vs. spring, pine vs. oak. Yup they are all different in how they handle and working with them can be worlds apart so don’t confuse you pricing in one with the pricing in another. Buying bulk is alway good for a discount, but raw materials on the shelf you’ve sunk $ into isn’t helping with your ‘flow’ of goods. This is one of the most difficult things to learn and sense. It might be a great deal but if it will suck up most of your cash flow see if you can go in with some others or locals to bring up the difference beyond what you need. Also, will storage of it exceed your work/storage space?

Find your bread & butter items. As noted earlier, finding a niche that you like and can do or one you are working towards often means you need something to cover the bills and generate $ in the mean time. Find something that the market can support, that you can make well and in a reasonable amount of time and use that to produce the $ you need to pay yourself while you are working on training up and moving towards the niche market you really want. My last self run was in period/camp woodworking. I found camp chests to be a very good niche especially at the lower/working/field end of the market. I was working my way up toward being able to produce high quality replica coffers (leather & metal bound) but good ol’ corporate came a calling before I got there.
I wasn’t rolling in cash, but I was covering all my business expenses and personal expenses and being able to roll $ back into the business (in the way of raw goods and improving tools and shop layout) to keep it moving along.

Speaking of cash … realize the $ you generate from sales doesn’t belong to you … you may be the ‘owner’ but you are still an employee and therefor a line on the balance books that is equal to tools, raw goods, marketing, legal fees, licenses, etc. You only get a portion of it while the rest goes to all those other lines on the books. That is if you want you business to keep moving along. Using your business income to pay your personal expenses is one of the fastest ways to put yourself out of business. You need $ to make $ .. same goes for your biz. The $ you make needs to go back into it to buy replacement tools, train yourself up and cover the biz expenses. You should get paid from it, but realize it doesn’t all go to you.

From the suggestions previous. Totally agree on the don’t take $ until you are sure you can and the customer wants you to make the piece. If they back out or it flubs you can always put it into the ‘one off … P.O.S.’ area and sell it for enough to cover raw materials and call it a learning experience. This also leads into the knowing where you limits are. As a woodworker, I was very good, but I knew that custom work was not what I wanted to do and I didn’t have the means to do. I had a roster of other good/reliable custom medieval woodworkers I was always prepared to refer a client/customer to if they wanted that. I’d drawn my line in the sand and stuck to it. Saved my butt more times than I can count.

The customer is always right .. except when they aren’t. This ties into the above one re: custom work. You should bend over backwards to make sure the customer is very happy with the final deal as they are some of your best advertising and will bring in more work than almost anything else (unless you are a giant corporation that can burn thru pissed off customers and dump $ into marketing to keep bringing in new suckers). You will of course run into those ‘special’ customers that are impossible to please and will never be satisfied no matter what you do. Learn to recognize the warning signs early and be ready to politely explain what they are seeking is beyond your ability and have three or for others you can refer them to. You save face and avoid the headache of the impossible customer.

Communication. This will sink or swim your business. You need to be able to get inbound requests at almost any time of day and at any location. You don’t need respond immediately, but knowing the attempt at contact is there gives you time to review it and prepare your response. If it’s something you need more info on, then reply asap. If it’s something you can do, the give them the info, details you would want if you were the guy asking (think of how you feel when you are calling up a business trying to find a part or info on something). If it’s beyond you or you are too busy, then tell them and refer them to another. Helping someone out with a referral and being honest if you can’t do it within the requested time/price range is much better than stringing someone along. If it’s something you will take on, just like in personal communications. Read back what you believe the person is wanting, what your time frame is, what your cost & terms are, delivery methods and such. Best to get any possible confusion out of the way before you start any work.

I’ll probably write up more after a bit. I’m currently working on restarting my previous ‘medievalist’ shop making both basic and functions boxes, chests, storage & carrying bags, purses and pouches. I’m spending my time working on improving my skills on sewing & stitching as well as researching and refining my ‘product’ line to expand on the basic 6 board boxes, panel chests and ‘Norse’ chests. I’m still working on my marketing plan as well as setting up multiple raw material (leather, wood, hand forged hinges/straps, nails, etc.) and pricing/bulk levels. Oh yeah and that ‘business plan’ is a damn fine idea. Remember it’s a living document that mainly helps you put your crazy thoughts down in some semblance of order and you can always tweak it as you go along. More than anything it gives you focus and a framework.

Iain Ruadh
Campaign Mercantile (returning soon)

Excellent advice, Iain. I have owned my business for over 8 years, have payroll, etc., so I feel relatively qualified to chime in.

Rule #1
Owning a business is a 24 hour a day, 7 days a week job.
It comes first in almost all instances (obviously family comes *first*, but not necessarily "fun" family time). You are the boss, so the proverbial buck stops with you.

Rule #2
Be structured.
Time management is even more critical when your product is based on time. Track every minute of every day. Know exactly how long things take. Based on that, you should be able to create "to-do" lists with a very clear understanding of time planning. If something takes longer to do? Guess what, see rule #1 and work longer. I work anywhere from 60-65 hours a week on average, but when I get behind, that number increases to 80 or more.

Rule #3
Billable hours are critical.
Iain touched on this a bit, but certain things you will do that are work related are not billable, meaning you will not be paid for the time you spent even though you are officially working. Billable hours specifically means hours spent making armour for sale. Sales and marketing are NOT billable. Therefore going to Gulf Wars as a merchant may be critical to your business, but they do not count towards billable hours. Remember, that is where yo go to get paid for the work you've done, but they do not increase the product you have available to sell.

Personally, in my business I EXPECT to have at least 6 billable hours every day (not counting my employees). Earlier I said that I work 60-65 hours a week on average, which means I bill for about half the time I "work". Sales calls. Exhibiting at trade shows. Marketing and networking. All of these things are work, but they drive sales; they do not produce the work. They aren't billable.

Rule #4
Owning a business is a BAD idea for anyone who has poor time management skills. Period. Don't think you'll be different. You won't be.

In conclusion
Owning a business can be one of the most rewarding things you can do. I went from manager and director level positions in Corporate America to start mine and am glad I did. But it really does suck sometimes.

Oh, and right now, I am eating dinner at 7:45pm. At the office. My first meeting of the day was at 6:45am.

WOW!

Other then being honest -I think I have broken every rule presented to this point! How ever did I survive 15+ years ????

Sign in my barn-


HONESTY- When in doubt, tell the truth.


A nifty find from Jo Ann's ETC.

I have nothing to add except that I hope Galon gets AIDS.

Discussions at www.anvilfire.com, between self employed successful blacksmiths, indicate that you need a $100/hr shop rate, and need to bill 20+ hours a week of work to equal [i think] a $35K/yr job with benefits.

Study REAL ARMOR. I see plenty of people making armor without understanding how the real stuff works. I am only just beginnign to understand....

As has been discussed before, cash movement discipline! when I ran MKArmory.com, we had a separate bank account for all incoming cash, deposits through final payment. That account had no debit card and only one checkbook... locked in a drawer. We kept a detailed ledger, and when a product was done and shipped, then we deducted expenses and paid ourselves. Until the day a product shipped, the cash was still available to refund the customer completely. This was an absolute necessity with a handshake partnership... two people can't manage a shared account without strict rules. Now that I've sold MKA and scaled back to hobby level production alone, I still maintain a aseparate account. If I sellAND SHIP a $300 dollar helm, material costs get deducted + 10% to fund new tooling... the rest I "pay" into my family checking account. I started the ledger with a $1000 dollar "loan" from myself and paid that back +20% before I took any "pay." Now the operating costs come from that 10%. If my balance runs low, I'll increase the %.

Record every receipt and spend wisely. $8 for a high quality grinding belt that outlasts 3 $3 ones is a bargin... unless you can onyl afford 1 at a time and pay $6 shipping on each. A box fo flap wheels off ebay at $2 each is a bargin, but don't base your expense forcast off a one time deal.

Turning a hobby you love into a business is a good way to kill both, said my grandfather, owner of a butchershop/deli all his life.

hjalmr wrote:WOW!

Other then being honest -I think I have broken every rule presented to this point! How ever did I survive 15+ years ????

1. Your communication to customers is steady, honest, and consistent.
2. You show a level of personal resilience and indomitable spirit above that I see in most people, bouncing back from some nasty turns of life very quickly.
3. Judging by the amount of armor you produce, you work your tail off.
4. You charge the lowest prices of any reputable armorer. That undoubtedly helps some. But I am convinced that points 1-3 matter more, Hjalmir.

have an easy payment option like pay pal. I would have purchased a helm from a vendor on this forum but was unable to secure a payment method (trouble with western union online)

any other thoughts I would have, have already been covered

Although Kirby hasn't made armour in quite awhile. Even still, whether or not your specialty is edged weaponry and/or armour, Aaron's list applies. I just finished reading most of the posts to him and good advice from so many here.

Yes, times have changed since Kirby made nearly as much armour as he did his edged weaponry. Even before he joined the SCA. When he did, it WAS freon cans and carpet. By the time I met him in 1971, this was beginning to change (at least the "freon can") yet carpet was used ....a lot. So why he started producing some basic "munitions" stuff Mostly Heaumes, elbows/kneecops, breastplates and a few full cuirasses. Later, it was bascinets, globoss and a few hourglass gauntlets.

The few half, 3/4 or full suits were custom and these commissions were very rare largely because most SCAer's did not have the money. Armour had not caught on enough with the mundanes then and people always said Kirby never charged enough anyway. But the risk was IF you charged too much, you scared prospective customers away.

That changed immensely in the early 80s with the rise of reenactment events in general. But by then, he couldn't work on armour AND make his swords too that had been our "bread and butter". Something had to "give". He has only taken rare custom orders since then to keep his hand in and as a challenge. (The last commissioned piece was the bronze cuirass for a Thracian/Macedonian Reenactor a few years ago.)

Number 10 is the only one Kirby hasn't adhered to in the last few years, though. The kids are both grown now, so that can't be used as an excuse. And the van is in better condition now but it's easy to get into a rut while working in the shop nearly every day. Time goes by where you forget that a "recharge" by going to even a small SCA event is needed.

Yep, he most certainly agrees with that one.

cool thread... I am a Project Manager by trade and hobby knife, leather, costume maker, tinker you name it from shoes to muskets... I have often thought about telling my employer to go stick it and making one of my hobbies a profession but every time I do the math it just does not add up. Ok, I live in Metro D.C. and arround here the rent is so high I would have to charge about 500% just to break even on overhead costs.

My recommendation to anyone who wants to start their own business is to go to the local community college and take a basic small business course which will probably cost you $200-$400 and 2-3 months and save you tons of time and hassle. The class should tell you about how to set yourself up as a small business and teach you the basic business math and tax stuff most people don't even think about in a very bad nightmare...

It is interesting to see how many have stated things in this thread which you would hear again in a business class.

You have to consider how you want to sell your stuff also. What I mean is that if I went to an event and there was fighting then I will be on the field all day long and the booth will be closed.

considerations:

1. Do I contract someone to sell my stuff at events. I rarely sell at event but when I do I know a few merchant who are willing to sell for me for a small cut.

2. Online sales only? People like to see and feel the quality of your stuff. If you have no event presence it may hurt your sales. The trust factor.

3. If I run my own booth then I will need to pay additional merchanting fees and have a tent and tables and blah blah...

This is from the local community college for a small business course they charge $195 for and teaches some of the basics. Really, If you try this, . stuff by trial and error and then take a course like this you will sit there slapping your head every 5 minutes saying duh, why didn't I think about this and why didn't anyone tell me about that. You will also make lots of connections with the community that will probably help you later on... Hell, think about other opportunities... for some reason the armour market slows down but the local community needs a new sign made... local company needs some special safety equipment made for some obscure OSHA regulation... hey, your skills are transferrable

BTW no one has mentioned that most city councils or towns offer assistance to people starting small businesses. (OK, if you really live in bufu you might need to go to the county seat) You are also eligeble for tax breaks and all kinds of assistance in doing paperwork etc which, trial and error will not teach you.

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"If working custom, don't take deposits."

I make an exception to this rule for personalized items.
If you back out, I can't sell something with YOUR arms on it.....
Same thing for names.
I'm not gonna have something sit for an assload of time before I find someone ELSE named "Hrolf The Daft" (I just made that name up, it's no one real...that I know of anyway...)or what have you,that wants to buy the piece.

Vermin wrote:"If working custom, don't take deposits."

I make an exception to this rule for personalized items.

Well yeah, that makes sense. I've been doing commissions again recently and folks keep wanting me to customize and complicate their orders, but I'm holding the line against it, mostly for that reason, but also because I'm adhering to the KISS principle. Complicated commissions put too much pressure on me. I've been enjoying the work for a change.

One thing a lot of folks don't add to their prices is the cost of the PRESSURE a complicated custom commission brings to the maker. We may up the price for materials and time, but not for the skilled experience, planning, designing, thinking, etc. that something complicated requires. Most people don't want to pay what something fancy REALLY costs in this hobby.

Hence, simplicity. My new mantra.

In all honesty, there is NOTHING wrong with taking deposits. You just need to be disciplined about what you do with that money. It's not your money til the item paid for is delivered and the customer is happy with it. Full stop! Don't touch it, don't even think about spending that money until it is yours.

If you can do that, then you are safe taking deposits. If you think you're going to spend the deposit before you deliver the armor, then you're probably better off not taking a deposit.


About classes: classes are good. They can be useful. They can also be free. Contact your local SBA and SBDC (Small Business Development Center) about classes or other services they are offering in your area. These are federally funded agencies (so we pay for them) that offer help to people trying to launch small businesses. Use them. =)

Tasha K wrote:

Vermin wrote:"If working custom, don't take deposits."

I make an exception to this rule for personalized items.

Well yeah, that makes sense. I've been doing commissions again recently and folks keep wanting me to customize and complicate their orders, but I'm holding the line against it, mostly for that reason, but also because I'm adhering to the KISS principle. Complicated commissions put too much pressure on me. I've been enjoying the work for a change.

One thing a lot of folks don't add to their prices is the cost of the PRESSURE a complicated custom commission brings to the maker. We may up the price for materials and time, but not for the skilled experience, planning, designing, thinking, etc. that something complicated requires. Most people don't want to pay what something fancy REALLY costs in this hobby.

Hence, simplicity. My new mantra.

Yup.

"that guy" over dere in Joisey sells really good helmets, but some view them as "pricey", especially when comapred to the annual spring flare-up of "off the shelf" cheapo helmets that show up from "new" armorers working in their garage.

So, everyone buys 200$ helmets, and "that guy" loses money for a little while, because he's being undercut by "hobbiest" folks, rather than "business" folk who are getting a fair return for their time and skill.

Which, for him, isn't that big a deal, he's got the reserves and size to deal with it.

However, we start getting flooded by say, half decent helms from India, and you are gonna see a problem.

one of the dangers of this hobby is there are a LOT of skilled people doing a LOT of work they love to do FOR FUN. And people become accustomed to seeing something.. like a scroll, that someone might have 30 hours of work into, being "donated" for free. So, obviously, scrolls should be cheap.

or some guy who, having fun, bashed together a helmet over the winter, and is now selling it for 150$.

And, unconsciously, to them, a "Decent' helm should now cost about 150$.. cause that one did.

But it's not sustainable, DEFINATELY not sustainable for anyone trying to actually run a business based in this hobby.

And I see it a lot in the art/craft world too.

deposit money should be thought of as being held in escrow. which leads me to think there may be an opportunity here. something like a Paypal with a bit of escrow company thrown in? thoughts?

great thread btw. i haven't heard of anyone doing biz like this but couldn't a couple of these armourers who have real skills but lack the business acumen to run their own forge become consultant types? of course most guys that discover they don't have learn this at the expense of their rep.
as a for instance wouldn't it be nice to have a few armories bring (Sir?)Brand in and show a few of his tricks etc for a fee? (any toes stepped on PURELY accidental here, just random neurons firing)

It is easier to find small business courses to help a newbie out. When Kirby started in the early 60s to make this his career, it was largely trial and error in learning how to run a small business.

I took a few business courses in Junior College before I met Kirby (this was when there "were" Junior Colleges and not "Community Colleges). This helped in a few areas.

But in Kirby's case it was still traveling and meeting others to set up connections. His first ones were through the Scottish groups he was in and from there, the SCA. This certainly helps advertising, but it still "whom you know" to get "word of mouth" still works.

As for "cheap" verses "quality", don't settle for the former. Like a recent advertisement about a barber who sees a competitor offering "cheap" haircuts....only to later close. By then, the quality barber has been advertising "fixes for cheap haircuts". You have to learn patience while building up a clientel (hopefully you have already got a base when the competitor appeared). "Cheap" or "partially decent" will attract many but "quality" will eventually win out.

There are beautiful pieces done by enthusiastic hobbyists. Especially those who have a full time job. Being a part time "armourer" to develop the skills and get attention from your peers is laudable. Go for it! But turning your "love" into a actual day to day job, though, will definately challenge your dedication to the Craft. Kirby will be 70 this year and has been making his wares for over 50 years. It is all he does. It can be a love/hate relationship at times.

Agnarr wrote:I have nothing to add except that I hope Galon gets AIDS.

After being bitten by a rabid pit-bull with West Nile.

I will say this about that asshat, I got to know you (not sure wether that is good or bad )

I am toying with doing some armor and other metal/leather stuff for sale.

However, I will go the route of,
1) It will get sold when it is done
2) It will be off the rack
3) It will be munition grade
4) it'll fit into a flat rate box, so I know (and the client knows) what the shipping will be.

I am thinking of CoP kits (just the plates) to begin with. However, I need more R&D, which means a few more kits that some lucky (possibly unlucky) bastages will get to try out.

No way would it be full time (unless I get laid off again)

Eric Fick wrote:have an easy payment option like pay pal. I would have purchased a helm from a vendor on this forum but was unable to secure a payment method (trouble with western union online)

any other thoughts I would have, have already been covered

Personally, I dislike Paypal. I would rather have a money order or personal check (product sent after the m/o or check clears).

But then again, that's just me.

Vermin wrote: "Hrolf The Daft"

Not me thank goodness. I woulda been worried if it was "Hrólfr the Grouchy"

i'll 2nd the instock thing


lots of things become WAY harder to do when you start doing them.


Not even construction difficulties, but things like riviting....3000 rivits in a few weeks



It sucks and after about 1200 you don't want to do it any more.


When i finish off the queue i'm probly going that route