The Armour Archive

Stonekeep armory: Customer Survey/ opinions Poll


If you have ever been a customer of ours or sent people our way, id definitely be interested in your input on some very serious changes that may or may not take place in the armory....

Been talking to my silent partner, office manager, spouse, friends, friends who used to be employees, etc etc. about the direction of the armory vs where we may need to be headed etc.

I personally am way past tired of hiring new employees when we get busy, just to fire them twice a year in summer and winter due to lack of orders coming in anymore. Im just not gonna do it again..

Before the end of the year, i want to go ahead and move to some property we bought, build our retirement home with a nice shop behind it, and hopefully still be making armor 30 years from now when im 70.

But apparently im gonna be working in that shop by myself from here on out,so time will be more limited without assistance, and profit per item needs to be higher.

Some of the ideas that have been thrown up are:

1) cut out all mild steel products.

2) cut out all steel and regular stainless products and go strictly with spring

3) Do number 2 and when out of orders make spring stainless products and buildup a large instock of them because people tend to be moving more towards buy it now, not buy it and wait.

4) stop taking orders at all and only offer instock in spring and spring stainless.

Considering where we started from, these suggestions are a pretty heavy weight on my mind.... We have always done well in the market because we relied on mass production and high volume of sales. In 2007 I had 5 shop employees and was routinely offerring up overtime. That ended two years ago and we have been on a downhill slide financially ever since, although our product quality has greatly improved with fewer sales allowing for experimentation and tweaking.

I can no longer buy mild steel or regular stainless in sufficient quantity to get the price breaks i used to enjoy in order to sell at a lower price. Even leather and rivets are now purchased at full price with no breaks.

So sales and income have plummetted, while all expenses have been raised significantly across the board.

The ideas presented to me and listed above are pretty solid solutions, but it is a hard pill for me to swallow.

Having said all of that, you can probably look for some serious changes coming by the first of the year if not sooner...

1) cut out all mild steel products. - I'd avoid this as I think a lot of your customers are 1st time buyers trying to get out of loaner gear, you offerr good looking equipment at a great price, moving to more expensive metal removes you from that demographic, I bought spring from you based on my satisfaction with your mild, at your price for spring you would have been out of consideration (not that you overcharge, it would be more than starter investment for me)

2) cut out all steel and regular stainless products and go strictly with spring - If I was going to cut something, I'd cut stainless out, if I was to go that rout, I'd probably jump straight to spring

3) Do number 2 and when out of orders make spring stainless products and buildup a large instock of them because people tend to be moving more towards buy it now, not buy it and wait. Seems to offer flexibility to you, but I think the mild is always going to sell because of it's low cost

4) stop taking orders at all and only offer instock in spring and spring stainless. - you've sort of gone this route with your auctions, are you selling at a high enough price point to make this profitable, I see auction and I think discount, depending on your inventory carried, this could get to be problematic on it's own.

Mike, I feel your pain. Good luck with whatever decisions you take to keep things going.

I do not have the answers, or the savvy to give you advice, but I have been a customer in the past, and will be in the future- based on my exceptional experiences with you. I will never buy mild again, from anyone, and when I have the ability I will be going to you for spring stainless.

Suggestion 1:

Actually i agree with you, and thats what hurts the most... Mild is where we get 70-80% of our sales, with it maybe accounting for 15-25% of our profits.

That suggestion was made by my silent partner because looking at the books, and the upside down nature of the work vs profit, those orders are WHY I always need to hire employees, yet they dontt make enough profit to carry those employees throughout the year, only in season (which is a huge waste of time in training and labor expense)

Im not even sure this part is even negotiable anymore after looking at the evidence, but Ive tried to inject the idea in the negotiations of keeping products such as a mild gorgets, and a couple varieties of spaulders, as well as simple fanless cops and starter kits, to still be sold in mild...
Things that Ive made so many of that i can literally fly through them. So my suggestion on the mild was not do away with it completely but scale way back on the products that were offerred in mild steel. To give those customers some products if not a large variety like they do now.


Suggestion 2:

I have no love affair for regular stainless.. It was a neccessary evil before spring stainless came around, but now i consider it an outdated material.

Suggestion 3:

Sell ,yes... i was able to prove it was and has always been the largest seller with the evidence on the books. My partner turned around and proved it was also the reason for needing extra labor, which in essence now makes it a liability, while being the lowest profit margin items we sell.

Now i do know that people wholater buy spring and spring stainless from us are a LOT of the time former mild steel and regular stainless customers coming back for their third and even fourth kits. You hit on that earlier. Thats also why i think possibly scaling way back on whats offerred, sticking to quicly made products, but not eliminating mild completely would be a good compromise there...

Suggestion 4

Well auctions are a cash now thing.... I dont put auctions up to make money. we always lose money on them. like recently i sold a returned item for a different size on here which cost $170 originally and i got $100 for it. There was only loss there, no profit. Now i will be making the replacement size from the materials i purchased and used that $100 (and a few hundred more) towards.

Now having said that.... If i did Not take orders and only made instock, i wouldnt have those issues. i wouldnt ever be critically low of any material because if i were id just make some instock from the materials i Did have until we had some sales and i could re-purchase.

The other idea here was Id be making less and less humdrum items requiring minimal skill and could push myself into more and more difficult projects of my own choosing. those projects being made in material such as spring stainless would open up the market and skill set which i havent tapped at all due to my time spent say banging out 20 pairs of mild cops for a teeny amount of profit. Ill have to admit theres a job satisfaction element there that cant be completely overlooked.

3) Do number 2 and when out of orders make spring stainless products and buildup a large instock of them because people tend to be moving more towards buy it now, not buy it and wait.

It would be great if you had normal stainless and spring stainless in stock in my book. I would also thing taking custom orders for only high end stuff makes since too. Not sure if that works for your business model.

I know a lot of my folk would still buy normal stainless stuff form you as few want to stay with mild in the long run. Most cannot afford spring steel.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck ! I love armor and how much you shop has done for new folks on my area !

Duke Uther wrote:3) Do number 2 and when out of orders make spring stainless products and buildup a large instock of them because people tend to be moving more towards buy it now, not buy it and wait.

It would be great if you had normal stainless and spring stainless in stock in my book. I would also thing taking custom orders for only high end stuff makes since too. Not sure if that works for your business model.

I know a lot of my folk would still buy normal stainless stuff form you as few want to stay with mild in the long run. Most cannot afford spring steel.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck ! I love you are more and how much you shop has done for new folks on my area !

Hi Uther, I was hoping youd chime in because not only have you purchased the upper products but you send a ton of people from calif my way for both beginner and spring.

My one thought on limiting the amountof variations on mild, (I feel) might even benefit new people. the reason for that is right now there are so many products and so many options even in mild steel, that i cant afford to make anything in advance, or to have much of anything instock because its gambling with limited funds,when everyone orders something different with various options. i feel a limited offerring of mild steel products, like one gorget style in 3 sizes, two spaulder styles in 3 sizes, dropping joints and splinted products to only fanless (which is by far the most popular, and trying to keep some instock) would be far greater than the individuals having to wait. We tried this with great success on our starter kits, which were made MY way, with no options but i get em out to you fast and at a cheaper price.


We are actually in a 4 way email conversation right now discussing the future of the armory and these kinds of decisions, and im injecting input from you guys directly into this conversation...

Things that we are discussing on email:

1) Mild steel and regular stainless options and products needs to be more limited making any instock products made in these materials to be more likely to be purchased.

2) A push for more instock spring and spring stainless products needs to be made following the presumed backlash of a fewer number of orders resulting from #1

3) Higher end spring stainless products need to be designed,not just spring stainless versions of munitions armor. So i need to design some eye candy to only be made in spring stainless. Besides website traffic this could lead to a reputation boost for the armory.

Stonekeep,

When I have done business with you, I knew there would be no problems. If there were and it was your end, you would communicate and make it good.

As for your business...

I would suggest keeping a simple gorget, knee and elbow cop in mild on hand for quick starter sales. one or two sets... as these seem to be quick to replace in stock.

For those who are looking, keep spring on hand in a more upscale, good looking piece. Maybe one set "on the shelf" and a time to complete if not in stock.

Set up a limited number of slots per year to do custom work.. with a 50% deposit of which 50% is non-refundable (or whatever may be needed to cover material costs should the buyer back out - and a hand signed agreement (suggestion) ).

If possible, make a couple of large material purchases a year for a price break... yes, you are holding material for later use in stock, but as a sole proprietor, you cant really run a Just-in-Time manufacturing process (buy materials based on orders system).

I had purchased a set of you r elbow and knee cops for my use.. did not use them so I used them as a largesse gift... and informed the person who made them.

Good luck.

I liked most all of what you suggested except custom work... We will never dive into the custom armory field. Anything we make for eye candy or to improve offerring in the spring stainless category will be made as an instock item. If the product seems a likely candidate it will definitely be placed as orderable in various sizes after that on the website, but if not it will be put in instock or auctioned off on here. We dont make anything without the intention of making ten dozen more over time, so custom work is a foreign entity to us.

We have never purchased materials in small amounts until the economy crash, order drop, and subsequent layoffs of all our employees, which I held off on while depleting materials. That however, wont be able to be changed until we build our capital back up by making profits. (hence the suggestions on dropping our low profit for amount of labor items.)
I agree, you simply cant purchase materials in that manner, and after we make some drastic changes around here, and get more capital coming in with much less going out in labor, we will get back to having capital in reserve to buy materials wholesale.

Stonekeep wrote:3) Higher end spring stainless products need to be designed,not just spring stainless versions of munitions armor. So i need to design some eye candy to only be made in spring stainless. Besides website traffic this could lead to a reputation boost for the armory.

I was going to try to say this, but was having trouble making my writing sound tactful. I wanted some stainless spring stuff a few months ago (and again today), and my first thoughts were "Anshelm Arms" and "Stonekeep".
Comparing prices and style, I had to go with Brent's stuff over yours. In both instances he was not only a bit cheaper, and the design was simply better asthetically to me.

I think your munitions stuff actually doesn't appeal to me as much as it used to a few years ago. You're obviously shaping the pieces more which makes the pieces look more finished, but I find it detracts a bit from the fit. You make the cops more bowled then in the past and they don't sit as comfortably/deeply on the leg as the set I had a few years back. Even the dished lame's don't articulate tightly together as well as your old paterns, in my opinion.

I originally moved away from the old stonekeep elbows and knees primarily because I was moving 60 years into the past, but they were also heavy. But they articulated well, set lovely on the limb and they were bomb proof. Just my opinion.
-Cian

I haven't purchased armour from you, but I wanted to add my perception as a shopper because I think it may be useful to you.

When looking at your site, there are options available to some armour pieces that aren't shown in the stock items pictures. If you're breezing through a website looking for a certain piece of armour, it's easy to miss the extras that may make the difference in getting a sale.

For instance, I've been looking for some 14th C. soupcan knees with a central crease. When I briefly looked at the Stonekeep site, I only saw a picture showing uncreased knees. Since I wasn't paying much attention to the part of the page that wasn't the picture, I didn't realize that there was a crease option offered. I assumed that the picture shown was the 'Stonekeep Soupcan Knee'. The picture, as shown, wasn't what I was looking for, so I moved right on to the next site. I know that it's partly my fault that I wasn't observant, but that happens when you're doing a power search for a specfic item through numerous sites. You tend to focus on the pictures.

So, you might consider making the options for armour more apparent on the website by posting more pictures.

Having said all that, I now know that you can make the knees I want, so I'll be sending an order your way soon.

Oh I think you hit the nail on the head when it comes to dished cops...

Ive graduated up to where the cops are not just a basic good dish anymore, and are now deep dished, then turned over and raised. A Lot more work, and they are really pretty and what I was striving for.

Customers have commented that they love the arms made that way but on legs they preferred less dishing, or at least not raising them, so recently (like within a few weeks) we have started doing this.

This is actually good news because Ive definitely noticed it takes approx. twice as long to make cops the way we currently make them over what we did say two years ago.

Tomburr wrote:I haven't purchased armour from you, but I wanted to add my perception as a shopper because I think it may be useful to you.

When looking at your site, there are options available to some armour pieces that aren't shown in the stock items pictures. If you're breezing through a website looking for a certain piece of armour, it's easy to miss the extras that may make the difference in getting a sale.

For instance, I've been looking for some 14th C. soupcan knees with a central crease. When I briefly looked at the Stonekeep site, I only saw a picture showing uncreased knees. Since I wasn't paying much attention to the part of the page that wasn't the picture, I didn't realize that there was a crease option offered. I assumed that the picture shown was the 'Stonekeep Soupcan Knee'. The picture, as shown, wasn't what I was looking for, so I moved right on to the next site. I know that it's partly my fault that I wasn't observant, but that happens when you're doing a power search for a specfic item through numerous sites. You tend to focus on the pictures.

So, you might consider making the options for armour more apparent on the website by posting more pictures.

Having said all that, I now know that you can make the knees I want, so I'll be sending an order your way soon.

That website is not what I want it to be by far... Mostly due tot he limitations imposed by using Yahoo Merchant Services.

Having said that, I totally agree... What we have done in the past is show a basic product pic, then when u go into the product page it lists the options. Most of these options have pics to show what they are selling. The problem is a lot of people (like you said) never make it to the product page at all to see the options. I think this is because most sites dont really have options like we offer. They usually make their best product they can make and post the pic and like you said thats their product. Ive always tended to offer basic products, with options that can be added. Its probably way too many options available, and one thing that you will probably see is us getting down to say "15th century leg with club fan" and show a pic. Instead of 15th century leg and then you go in to find you have 7 or 8 fanstyles to choose from. A lot of people never get there if the pic shows a spade fan and thats not what they want.

Ive definitely looked at that, and I think this massive thinning down of available products to be ordered will result in something more simple and blatantly straight forward. Less Burger King, more coke machine if that makes sense.

Looks like we are going to be moving more towards an instock armory, with emphasis on instock and not on orderable products.

Both mild steel and 304 stainless products are going to be thinned down to starter type products only (or instock items as available)

The munitions spring and spring stainless probably wont change much except an effort to carry more products instock.

Some higher grade products may start to be developed for eye candy and to see how they sell...

That was the general concensus of the partners after emailing all day today...

keep mild in stock, and only accept custom orders for spring steel.

Sjolander wrote:keep mild in stock, and only accept custom orders for spring steel.

That looks to be the track we are goin to be taking...

I hate to hear that you have to lay people off. I think the economy more than anything else has affected your business and the society as a whole.

If you would have more pieces in stock (instant order) I think that people would pull the trigger more often (at least that works for me). The work that comes out of your shop is excellent and I hope you keep it afloat for many years.

Logan

Does anyone else out there even work in spring stainless? That's a pretty big deal, in my opinion.

That said, perhaps lean away from the munitions "look". I peek at other harness, and yours, and find I like the lines from some of the other high end armorers a little more. If I'm going to drop $1500 on spring stainless arms and legs (for instance), I am probably going to be inclined to spend a few hundred more to get ones that look like high end historical armor.

I have your arms, legs, and butterfly spaulders, all in spring (and that really cool leather quiver!). Couldn't be happier with them (apart from a tendency of the legs to "pop" the articulation if I take a knee too quickly...but I've stopped kneefighting, so it's not a big deal). I recommend them at every opportunity.

Your spring line represents an excellent value, but I still presume that your margin on those items is considerably better than with mild, even at those reasonable prices. If you're going to be the only one making things, I can't see how mild is going to work in terms of potential profit for the amount of time you will have to spend on production. With the exception of materials and power for running the oven, I wouldn't imagine your fixed costs vary all that much depending on material used. Basic business management principles would dictate that if production capacity is a limiting factor, as much production time as possible needs to be devoted to the products with the best margin. I know...thank you, Earl Obvious.

But basically, if mild is returning really small margins, I don't see how you can afford to offer it, not without employees to expand your production capacity. The key would seem to be ensuring that you have enough sales of the high-margin spring stuff to more than offset the revenue from high-volume (in sales), low margin mild...especially since your volume in production of any type will be reduces. The spring has to be able to be competitive in total profit revenue, not just margin percentage. It's a hard numbers game, really...and I suspect the key might be how effectively you can market your spring line.

I'm sure all of this is stuff you've already been thinking through, but perhaps it will be useful to hear it from someone else.

In any case, can we talk about a set of spring greaves and sabatons? =P

What about a 25% price increase on mild steel stuff?

I thought you primarily did instock already?

I hope you do continue to do at least knees elbows and gorgets in all 4 types of steel.

What about the plastic hidden knees and elbows? Are you planning on dropping or continuing those?

Christopher

Any thought to selling pre cut kits for knee elbow cops and other items? Quick and dirty influx of $$$

It was mentioned in another thread that you might diversify into another product line, Holsters
concealed& open carry are booming markets right now, maybe with your experience you could make some scratch there as well.


edit to add you might be able to use scraps of 4130& 410 to make hardened cases for cell phones for those who have other than office jobs too

Logan the Red wrote:I hate to hear that you have to lay people off. I think the economy more than anything else has affected your business and the society as a whole.

If you would have more pieces in stock (instant order) I think that people would pull the trigger more often (at least that works for me). The work that comes out of your shop is excellent and I hope you keep it afloat for many years.

Logan

Definitely going to start working towards the instock thing, at the expense of orderable low end munitions. Course we may start keeping some low end munitions as instock too.

Dafydd wrote:
Your spring line represents an excellent value, but I still presume that your margin on those items is considerably better than with mild, even at those reasonable prices. If you're going to be the only one making things, I can't see how mild is going to work in terms of potential profit for the amount of time you will have to spend on production. With the exception of materials and power for running the oven, I wouldn't imagine your fixed costs vary all that much depending on material used. Basic business management principles would dictate that if production capacity is a limiting factor, as much production time as possible needs to be devoted to the products with the best margin. I know...thank you, Earl Obvious.

But basically, if mild is returning really small margins, I don't see how you can afford to offer it, not without employees to expand your production capacity. The key would seem to be ensuring that you have enough sales of the high-margin spring stuff to more than offset the revenue from high-volume (in sales), low margin mild...especially since your volume in production of any type will be reduces. The spring has to be able to be competitive in total profit revenue, not just margin percentage. It's a hard numbers game, really...and I suspect the key might be how effectively you can market your spring line.

I'm sure all of this is stuff you've already been thinking through, but perhaps it will be useful to hear it from someone else.

In any case, can we talk about a set of spring greaves and sabatons? =P

I think you fully have the grasp of what the discussion was about. My time will be much more limited (in season) without assistants to help with srap making, polishing, grinding, and all the humdrum aspects. Ill be making every piece from scratch myself which means the products i make have to have a decent return in profit. I cant load up my queue with low margin products and work all the time just to not make the expenses.

RenJunkie wrote:What about a 25% price increase on mild steel stuff?

I thought you primarily did instock already?

I hope you do continue to do at least knees elbows and gorgets in all 4 types of steel.

What about the plastic hidden knees and elbows? Are you planning on dropping or continuing those?

Christopher

We havent had much instock in two to three years now. Hopefully by limiting our queue that will now change.

We did a compromise on mild and regular stainless. Some products have already been removed from the website per our discussions yesterday with more to be removed soon. Gorgets and fanless knees will remain, as well as a few types of spaulders. Plastic cops will remain as they are a needed item and not a low margin item either.

sha-ul wrote:It was mentioned in another thread that you might diversify into another product line, Holsters
concealed& open carry are booming markets right now, maybe with your experience you could make some scratch there as well.


edit to add you might be able to use scraps of 4130& 410 to make hardened cases for cell phones for those who have other than office jobs too

No, Im not looking to branch out into another field. The focus will simply go to instock armor. My time is going to be limited

Wow, you do move fast on updating things!

I was hoping that you'd hang on to the soupcans at least in the knees.

What Capt's idea of kit pieces? Maybe a riveted design. That way you dish it most of the way done, and don't have to worry about any finishing. Is it possible that that may yield sufficient margins?

Glad to see the fanless and hiddens at least are staying.

Christopher

RenJunkie wrote:Wow, you do move fast on updating things!

I was hoping that you'd hang on to the soupcans at least in the knees.

What Capt's idea of kit pieces? Maybe a riveted design. That way you dish it most of the way done, and don't have to worry about any finishing. Is it possible that that may yield sufficient margins?

Glad to see the fanless and hiddens at least are staying.

Christopher

I did a few kits in the past and it was just way to easy to forget something then it costs me another $12 to ship the 4 cent rivets I forgot.

I can form the saoupcans in half the time using spring or spring stainless. Of course then they have to go through the process of cooking and cleaning, but it eliminates all the aggravation and straining.
I plan on keeping the soupcans instock in both spring and spring stainless soon, which should be appealing.

Yea fanless and hidden cops arent going anywhere. Those are basic goods and i want to keep some basic steel and stainless items available.

I just meant send a hunk of shaped metal. Up to the customer to go out and by a 16 penny common nail...lol

Half the time? I would have never guessed they would be faster like that. But my knowledge of metal working is teency. I take it that it's softer stuff until you heat treat it?

Hope this all works out well for you (and the armour buying community). You've been a great resource for inexpensive mandatory gear.

Christopher

Yea, the starter kits are still up and I plan to keep it that way. Then common things like fanless cops, several of our simpler spaulder types, kidney belts, gorgets, articulated joints (suspect), and splinted legs and arms are all still up. There may be a much simpler offerring int he way of options on some of those products that were kept though.

Basically, in munitions material we jumped back to what we offered say in 94.

Spring and spring stainless have not been changed and we still have the complete lineup. As a matter of fact, I had to add an item in order to cook some spring stainless simple cops for an archiver today, so I also sat down and made a new product (for us) which will be 1369 Beauchamp Spaulders.

[quote="Stonekeep"]Yea, the starter kits are still up and I plan to keep it that way.


I just want to say thanks for that !

Duke Uther wrote:

Stonekeep wrote:Yea, the starter kits are still up and I plan to keep it that way.


I just want to say thanks for that !

Oh yea, they aint goin anywhere....

The REST of the steel and stainless products are now more like the starter kit section. Fewer options, more straight forward.

I came to the game with more means than the average college student, but not a whole Wells Fargo wagon worth of cash to through at armor.

I my first kit was comprised of a breast plate from alchemy armory in canada, a set of catcher's legs from play it again sports (worn under the baggy pants), Stone keep splinted legs with 5 pc. mild articulation, a spade fan, and pavellets, stone keep splinted arms with 5 pc. mild articulation, stainless butterfly spaulders from stone keep, attached to a stainless bevore from stone keep.

The stainless spaulders are still in my kit. The mild stuff lasted about six years, and finally succumbed to rust, shots to the knee, etc. Its going to our iron key here. It needs re strapping, and some rivets and what not.

I replaced the arms with stonekeeps floating cop attached to a kydex vambrace. the legs I went with aluminium, because I just couldn't keep bearing the weight on my legs, it was hurting my left knee.

I have been very happy dealing with you. I send people your way when I can, but always tell new guys to get anything other than mild. This is not because of quality of workmanship, but the nature of the material.

The only advice I can give you would be tongue in cheek; since you made my stuff so well the first go round, it was 6 years before I ordered from you again.

Good luck.

Cailin