WTB: Cheapo Garb

Jonathan Mayshar · Post by **Jonathan Mayshar** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:22 pm

Hello,

My HEMA/WMA club has decided that we want to do presentations at some of the smaller faires in the Southern California area (because we don't want to pay for a booth at the biggies).

Our problem is that we aren't re-enactors, so we don't actually have garb, nor do we have much use for garb outside of these few events where it will be required of us.

So we want to do all the short-cuts that you Scadians make fun of, putting together 20 or so of the cheapest, least accurate outfits that will pass muster. We're looking both for DIY advice on modifying regular clothes, and links to cut-rate suppliers.

By the way, I have respect for those who spend $1,000 or more on a serious period kit, and great respect for the crafts of making such. It's just that whatever money we have goes to rebated steel blades, and gambesons too heavy to wear as clothing.

Thanks in advance.

Heath B fraychef · Post by **Heath B fraychef** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:43 pm

check out linnengarb.com for a start. or look up adric here on the archive he runs it.

darksole03 · Post by **darksole03** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:29 am

Jonathan, I live in cali and Im with a guild that goes to majority of the southern faires. Feel free to send me a PM but most outfitting for ren faires can me made from crap you find at good will or salvation army. A starter outfit can cost a minimum of 10-15 bucks. Ive even made them for cheaper. The most expensive item you will have to get are boots. Old biker boots work great though, that is if you have them. Shirts you can get at faire for 15-25 bucks. Pant you get at a thrift store. No pockets plain colors and absolutely no purple. Make a sash out of an old sheet and your done with your outfit. A nice additive is a vest or a doublet.

Blackoak · Post by **Blackoak** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:23 pm

What do you consider cheap? Is 20 bucks for a trigger fighting tabard high for you?

I have a few old fighting tunics I might let go of.

Uric

Blaine de Navarre · Post by **Blaine de Navarre** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:52 pm

Many "renaissance" faires are pretty lax about the period they want to see people dressed for, but some are more careful: given that and the subject matter you are presenting, you probably want to aim at mid- to late-15th C(ish).

If you're willing to put in some "sweat equity," patterns from Reconstructing History and linen from Fabrics-Store.com are your friends. You can easily have something decent looking for pretty cheap.

As stated above, footwear will likely be your biggest expense. Depending on how high a standard of accuracy you are looking for, Minnetonka moccasins with the fringe cut off may be adequate. On the other hand, by the Elizabethan era, shoes were starting to look a lot like they look now, so a pair of plain leather oxfords can often work with an Elizabethan costume.

Alric of Drentha · Post by **Alric of Drentha** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:20 pm

My apologies for being 'that guy,' but if you're going to be giving presentations to the general public, I feel that you have some responsibility as educators to make an attempt to wear clothing that's reasonably historically accurate. That doesn't have to mean spending a fortune - simple tunics like those from linengarb.com paired with braes and hosen from historicenterprises.com, and a pair of Westland shoes (vikingleathercrafts.com) will get you there for under $200 (less if you buy patterns and make the cloth goods for yourselves). I feel that you would be doing the public a disservice to give a demonstration in re-purposed thrift store finds.

Dansknecht · Post by **Dansknecht** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:21 pm

My apologies for being 'that guy,' but if you're going to be giving presentations to the general public, I feel that you have some responsibility as educators to make an attempt to wear clothing that's reasonably historically accurate. That doesn't have to mean spending a fortune - simple tunics like those from linengarb.com paired with braes and hosen from historicenterprises.com, and a pair of Westland shoes (vikingleathercrafts.com) will get you there for under $200 (less if you buy patterns and make the cloth goods for yourselves). I feel that you would be doing the public a disservice to give a demonstration in re-purposed thrift store finds.

This. +1

I will add that doing so, and correctly, will benefit your study of WMA in that you'll be able to better understand how Talhoffer, Fiore, Ringeck, Meyer, Silver, di Grassi, and so on moved and had to move in the clothing of their times and how their techniques were really supposed to function.

Cian of Storvik · Post by **Cian of Storvik** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:57 pm

I'm going to continue on with Alric was saying.
Unless you're going to do livery (which should all be coordinated; cloth, colors and badges for everyone), the basic garment set-up will cost about $250-$400 pre-fabricated.
You can cut corners, but after you do, you'll quickly realize the shortcomings of going cheap. Prices don't include shipping and handling.

This is assuming 15th century outfit:
Shirt:
Historic enterprises tie neck shirt: $45

Pourpoint:
Historic enterprises $65

Legwear:
T'ger Toggs tights: $28
or Historic enterprises split hose: $100
or Historic enterprises boiled wool joined hose: $135

Footwear:
Viking leather craft turnshoes: $50
or Revival/chivalry bookshelf ankle boots: $80
or Historic enterprises turnshoe ankle boots $125

Hat:
H.E. felt cap $12

Initially, if you go with T'ger toggs, Viking leathercraft turnshoes, H.E. pourpoint, shirt and hat. You're looking at $202 without shipping.
You should really have a doublet as well, but you will want to make sure you coordinate the livery with the rest of the group. and for warmer weather, or any work, you'll be setting it aside so as no to get it sweaty or cause you to overheat.

I would make the initial investment preferably going with H.E. for the entire kit (Around $350 +ship.). I believe you'll be much happier then the cheaper alternatives as the value for dollar increases. And you can accumulate the other bits and pieces as you get the money $30-$50 here and there (belt pouch, belt, byknife and other odds and ends).
Once again, saving up to the largest single piece of kit; a doublet or coat $250-$340. But I would get it in the same material and color as everyone else if you're doing a company or garrison or household group.
-Cian

Cisco · Post by **Cisco** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:22 am

edit: I just saw that it's a WTB, not want help to make. So nevermind.

If you don't mind early-ish period, linengarb.com is probably the cheapest if you want all linen, I think it's about $50 for a tunic and less for pants but I'm not sure how much less.

Alternate for pants may be scrubs, cotton pants, or anything else that's basic, simple, and pocketless.

vikingleathercrafts.com is probably the cheapest for shoes, again it's gonna be early period-ish.

Jonathan Mayshar · Post by **Jonathan Mayshar** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:54 pm

Hmm.

First off, I appreciate the advice and the links from everybody. I'll send a few PMs today.

With regard to the controversy, I don't want to start something here because AA isn't "my territory" and I do my best to respectfully represent my club and my organization.

The WMA/HEMA world has a ways to go compared to the SCA when it comes to establishing standards; however, the ship has kind of sailed for us on the garb issue. The overwhelming majority of European groups, and all major tournaments, use mostly modern fighting wear.

I'm one of the most pro-reenactor guys in my organization and frequently speak out for the place of garb in WMA. But all I can do is try to keep people's mind open about others who do it; there's no way I'm going to influence WMA outside of the SCA to go in that direction.

As for the argument about the clothing of the fechtbucher, I get it. But as a practical matter, groups that study multiple masters (which is most of us) aren't going to have multiple fechtbuch garb kits, if we have any at all. Besides this, I think the effect of the clothing on the art is overstated, or at least the effect in comparison to modern clothes that move well. But I'd rather concede to specialist reenactors on this than debate it.

$50 total for an outfit (twice that for some of the leaders) would be the most that we could do for occasional trips. If we're not going to be accepted doing a demo unless we wear $250-$500+ outfits, then we won't do a demo. That's too bad. My guess is that even if we had that money for each of our students, including the teens, and even if we spent it on the kit with the most consensus on AA, there would still be people to point out that it's appropriate for master/manual/style X but not Y.

Having modern gear at least communicates that there isn't a persona and that we are "time-traveling" through the arts. So getting inexpensive garb would be a courtesy acknowledging your territory, but the last thing we would want is a courtesy that backfires and insults people.

Alric of Drentha · Post by **Alric of Drentha** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:04 pm

Jonathan,

I'm not in the SCA, and I honestly don't know much about their standards beyond what I see here on these boards. My comments were coming from the perspective of someone who is training to be an educator and who is frustrated when people in the roles of educators cut corners because the public doesn't know the difference. Because, when you give a demo to the public, you are no longer practicing WMA for yourselves, you are entering into a new role as educators, informing the public about the aspect of medieval history in which you specialize. Consequently, your responsibility for how you present yourselves through what you wear is different from what you can wear when you practice on your own time.

My thoughts are summed up better than I can express them in this paragraph (part of a larger article posted in another thread on these boards):

And what of lying to our peers, the public, and ourselves? No one is served by a misrepresentation of the past. History itself is fixed and immutable, but the perception of it is always changing. Reenactors have the power to influence this perception, for the better or for the worse. When we play with history in a disrespectful manner, we defile both our collective ancestors and ourselves. If I claim to be dressed for example, as an 18th century Indian warrior, but actually come closer to, as George Irvin has sometimes expressed, "an odd cross between Captain Caveman and Bozo the Clown", then have I not done a great disservice to both those of the past and of the present?

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... p?t=130018

Ren fairs are one of the public's few exposures to medieval history, and they're at our mercy as we can give them anything we want and tell them that that's what history looked like. I recognize that you probably couldn't get away with wearing modern sports clothes to a ren fair, but if you could I think that that would be more honest to the public than wearing cut up thrift store goods.

Jonathan Mayshar · Post by **Jonathan Mayshar** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:30 pm

Alric of Drentha wrote:I recognize that you probably couldn't get away with wearing modern sports clothes to a ren fair, but if you could I think that that would be more honest to the public than wearing cut up thrift store goods.

I agree. I'm also sympathetic to the rest of your argument -- I'm an educator too. However, I think there are a lot of gradations here, and something to be said for getting a variety people in the door for the education.

I mean, what's going to skew people's view of historical combat more, seeing wushu in Troy, or seeing visible machine stitching on our clothes as we demonstrate a Wallerstein play? And is the whole of what we have to share nullified, or even reversed in effect, by the machine stitching?

If I were in the SCA, I would be hard-core for accuracy in my personal presentation. But I also wouldn't be too frustrated by the Tuchux or the samurai or whatever, because I think that the balance of the community *is* educational, especially when compared with Hollywood.

Ursor · Post by **Ursor** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:39 am

Thrift stores will often have fabric floating around, fabric stores often have a clearance bin/table. A simple t-tunic or some tabbards are pretty darn easy to make. The thrift stores are also a good place to look for pants that are more appropriate than blue jeans or sweat pants. With a little sweat equity one can get away from Metallica t-shirts and jeans and look a heck of a lot better/presentable for demos. A little effort goes a long way to making your group shine. OP, I understand your point that the focus is on the fighting. But as my old lineman coach used to say: "When you look good, you feel good. When you feel good, you play good. When you play good you win." Take a step back and decide what is your goal from doing the demo. Is it to drum up more folks or is it just to show off and entertain? What is your "win" from doing these demos? What's wrong with looking good to the un-initiated?

TomSaucer · Post by **TomSaucer** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:25 pm

How good is the sewing skills of your group? This is a very important question to ask...

I am taking that you want 20 sets of garb to use for demos, this is my recommendation.

1. Sweat equity cannot be undervalued at this point. You will save a lot of money doing it yourself.

2. Since this is for loaner, faire, demo stuff and not personal stuff, look into the more important parts first and backfill the rest. (If you wanted a personal kit, I have recommendations on how to look better...)

3. The basic, knee length tunic was around from the fall of Rome to... well... there are still paintings of them being worn in the 15th and 16th century. They are quick, easy, and do not look modern. Concentrate on the tunic, wrap a belt around it, sweat pants and boots... you have an instant kit...

If you do not have anyone who can sew, ask linengarb.com for a discount on a mass order (their prices are already the best you will find.)

4. For belts, leather ring belts can be expensive if you want 20 of them... cotton belt strapping at Handcock/walmart is cheap... wrapping the end of a cotton belt strapping around a metal ring and sewing it down is an instant ring belt. Take non-fray stuff and hit the ends of the strapping to stop fraying.

5. For the tunics, let's talk fabric. Discount and cheap fabrics might be good now... but how long will they last? How well will they breath? You live in California... I've heard it gets rather hot there. http://www.fabrics-store.com/ is not that expensive as far as fabrics go. The linen will last, wick away sweat, and breath extremely well. In the long run, you will be happiest with this choice in fabrics. (the linengarb route will provide the same benefits)

I apologize for these being in a non-cohesive, flow of consciousness, but I am trying to do a couple of things at one time... If you have any questions, shoot me a pm and I am glad to help.

-Tom

darksole03 · Post by **darksole03** » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:34 pm

I recognize that you probably couldn't get away with wearing modern sports clothes to a ren fair, but if you could I think that that would be more honest to the public than wearing cut up thrift store goods.

I am truly insulted by this comment. We call you a "Costume Nazi"

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs49/f/2009/ ... lzero3.jpg

Both outfit's were created out of crud from goodwill. Just because its not hand sewn by your grandmother doesn't mean you cant have decent outfitting. Most of your armor isnt historically accurate but portrayed as acceptable. You need skills to make something be alright for the time period.

Jonathan, Good luck with all your clothing. For 50 bucks you can get a decent starter outfit. You just have to think cheap. Oh and Ebay is a good place to find doublets and so forth.

I completely agree with Ursor.

Dansknecht · Post by **Dansknecht** » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:56 pm

Really? He's a costume nazi because he thinks people who establish themselves as educators should at least attempt to responsibly represent the real people they teach about?! Preposterous.

It's not something that happens right away, but attempts are appreciated. Like Alric, I'm not a member of the SCA, but I am a reenactor and am studying to be a teacher, and let me tell you that I'm beyond sick of people that "teach" in all capacities misrepresenting and so misleading the public.

On top of that, I absolutely do not appreciate the casual throwing around of the term "nazi."

Alric of Drentha · Post by **Alric of Drentha** » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:17 pm

This is the second response to my comments that's mentioned handsewing / visible modern stitches, and I think I need to clarify that I nowhere suggested that Jonathan and his crew need to handsew their costumes to living history standards (I didn't even mention handsewing, or living history for that matter).

My point was that, if they intend to begin educating the public about the middle ages, they should present themselves in medieval clothing (like the cheap machine-sewn options Adric makes available at Linengarb) and not something that looks like it's from a pirate larp. If they cannot afford to present themselves in medieval clothing, they would serve the public better by presenting themselves in modern clothing as practitioners of a modern martial art.

If I ever get close enough to your garb to count the threads, please punch me in the face, cause I'll deserve it.

TomSaucer · Post by **TomSaucer** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:37 am

Can I say that both sides of this issue are getting out of hand.

You can assemble a kit from Salvation Army, Good Will, second hand stores, flea markets, ect, BUT you have to be very careful. There is a slippery slope, between achieving your goal you set out to, and looking silly. You also might end up putting more time and money into it (traveling, looking, gas, parking fees, ect.) then if you would have ordered the fabric or bought the garment.

Everyone has seen the Hot Topic(TM) ren faire diva(C), that just looks out of place. A lot of modern items, when mixed improperly looks dumb. This is nothing against the people that wear them, and enjoy wearing them, but I do not feel this is the image that you want to present with your organization. This is what I feel the people, on both sides, where advising you about. (without getting their panties in a wad about this and that... seriously some people on this forum are too emotional over some of this stuff.)

If you choose to make your own stuff, PM me and I will help you with patterns. I also understand that your organization has officers. A simple way to distinguish the officers is to have them wear surcoats when the non-officers to not. This also gives a snazzy look and makes your organization look good.

I wish you the best of luck on your demos and recruiting.

WTB: Cheapo Garb

WTB: Cheapo Garb

jon