The Armour Archive

not that it matters now but, I wouldnt have given a refund of the stocking fee. the amount of leg work and BS done to get an order overseas doesnt come close to the amount made in mark-up. this being a " hey I can hook yall up with something not normally seen." I think qualifies it as "custom" as it most definitly was a special order item heavily discounted..

We can spot a tantrum when we see one. It has happened, it will happen, and the fellow usually gets laughed at.

Samuel wrote:not that it matters now but, I wouldnt have given a refund of the stocking fee. the amount of leg work and BS done to get an order overseas doesnt come close to the amount made in mark-up. this being a " hey I can hook yall up with something not normally seen." I think qualifies it as "custom" as it most definitly was a special order item heavily discounted..

^That. I can sympathize with someone who feels he is a victim of poor communication, but it is generally safe to assume nothing is free.

Heath B fraychef wrote:

Duke Icefalcon wrote:I just can't take for a moment anyone thinking that ANYTHING I do is shady or misleading. No amount of money is worth it. I lost money on ordering custom legs and I will eat this deal as well. When I come back from Gulf Wars and have money, I will refund the rest of Mr Amos money to him.

My reputation is worth more to me than any amount of money. I have no personal issue with Mr Amos or anyone else for what they have said here. In all actuality, I would rather hear issues first hand than through the grapevine and I appreciate all opinions, good or bad.

Let me know if anyone wants a set of closed leggings. I will sell them for 20% off the list price.

while i commed his grace on this generous offer it sets a dangerous standard.
(let me first state that i have no opinion on the issue discussed here either way.)
because this review was posted on a public forum and has obviously garnered much attention it places ice in a position to either A. be forced into refunding monies he would not otherwise refund as specified in his return policy
or B. suffer potentially irreprible damage to his carefully obtained reputation.
both options have been forced.
not because ice has decided to refund the money to protect his reputation it opens the door to the next person who feels they deserve a refund for whatever reason. even after the alloted time period designated for reurns.
because they know if they make a bid enough deal about it and are loud enough about besmirching him he will do what it takes to protect his rep.
like i said before i have no opinion on the current issue but the precedent is there and its pretty jacked up.

I agree all around. This to me, an unbiased outside observer, see this as a man in the right being forced to appologize and suck it up. Too bad.

I thank Icefalcon for doing the right thing. If if the product had not been substandard and the return policy had been in place before I had made my return I would have no leg to stand on. as it were it is not fair to a costomer to change policy in the middle of a transaction.

To those of you who think that I am a whiner or throwing a tantrum, I hope you never have to face a similar situation and I know that you would not say such things if you met me in person. I knew that making a negitave review of a SCA legand on the AA would not be a popular thing to do, but every word I spoke is the truth and the truth is not slander, besmerching or whining. It is very easy to sit there in internet land and judge others when in reality you haven't a clue.

Once again I aplaude Icefalcon for fixing this situation. And I wish him the best of luck in the future.

Samuel wrote:not that it matters now but, I wouldnt have given a refund of the stocking fee. the amount of leg work and BS done to get an order overseas doesnt come close to the amount made in mark-up. this being a " hey I can hook yall up with something not normally seen." I think qualifies it as "custom" as it most definitly was a special order item heavily discounted..

I did not re-read the first page, but there was something about this item being custom because it was not the open back version usually stocked/ordered.

Without judging character at all, wouldn't "right" be exchanging for a new copy of the product that is not defective, and "wrong" be returning it altogether? Then you would get your item, undamaged, and keep your restocking fee. How did desire for such an expensive item change because of some faulty links?

Is is ten calendar days or ten business days for the return period? I don't recall ever having dealt with a retailer that used calendar days.

B. Amos wrote:I thank Icefalcon for doing the right thing. If if the product had not been substandard and the return policy had been in place before I had made my return I would have no leg to stand on. as it were it is not fair to a costomer to change policy in the middle of a transaction.

To those of you who think that I am a whiner or throwing a tantrum, I hope you never have to face a similar situation and I know that you would not say such things if you met me in person. I knew that making a negitave review of a SCA legand on the AA would not be a popular thing to do, but every word I spoke is the truth and the truth is not slander, besmerching or whining. It is very easy to sit there in internet land and judge others when in reality you haven't a clue.

Once again I aplaude Icefalcon for fixing this situation. And I wish him the best of luck in the future.

if you have doubt my opinion that this does NOT warrant a full refund would be in any way different with you standing in front of me by all means come ask me at gulf war. at BEST an exchange for an equal item for defaulty equipment, a full refund never.. buyers remorse isnt business negotiation..

im relatively easy to find:D

Woodstock wrote: I did not re-read the first page, but there was something about this item being custom because it was not the open back version usually stocked/ordered.

And it would make sense to me that if I had to specify a different version that required more labor and materials, it is going to cost more. It's been well established that armorers are hardly paid the going minimum wage once you figure in labor hours and material cost, most of them have a genuine love for the craft to be able to justify the expenditure of so much elbow grease/design time for so little comparative compensation. The Duke is not Wal-Mart, who could write this off in taxes and make up the profits lost in two hours of sales at any one of the googol of stores under the wal-mart corporate banner. And wal-mart would not be concerned one iota with a reputation issue one customer had. Wal-Mart is a retail giant, concerned only with the bottom line. They have a team of lawyers that would probably outnumber the nights of any SCA kingdom, and these lawyers are constantly looking at loss prevention issues such as this.
Sure, there seems to be quite a bit of miscommunication afoot, but holding a store that specializes in niche sports equipment to the standard of a retail giant is not quite fair. I would feel miffed about what I felt were hidden charges as well, so I am not trying to pass judgement on anyone. I only have the facts presented here, which to my sensibilities seem to favor the Vendor. Again, I am no one important, and I didn't wait longer than expected for a package and then open it to be disappointed. But if I was, knowing that Icefalcon has such a reputation for customer service to be worthy of the principles of chivalry, I would have had to open up the lines of communication with him and attempt to talk the issue out before I moved directly to this course of action.

A whole lot of opinions about things that no one has any knowledge of or involvement in.

well sigi its a face value topic. it was presented, as a review and came to be more of a method to press for a full refund. because of that I think more than anything people are chiming in with the facts as they are presented and voicing thier view. Not everyone is going to agree on things. nor should they, the world would be pretty bland if so.. getting upset that someone has an opinion you dont like when you open that door certainly leads to even more opinions.. this isnt a series of emails between Bamos and Ice .. bamos voiced his displeasure at what he percieves as bad customer service, others voiced a differing view. Id hope that Ice makes this the exception rather than the rule.

This is why I refer all new fighters to Icefalcon, because you pay for the armor you want and get the armor you paid for. Unlike other armorers who go out of business every 3-4 years taking all the prepaid orders with them.

Icefalcon can't be beat on customer service and delivery. Windrose, right up there. James river raise your hand. WE keep these guys and others like them in business because we need them. We need honest armorers who can get us dressed out for the fighting. But they need us...they need us to order, and to KEEP that order and not back out. Real life happening is no excuse for backing out on your word. Find a way to make it right.

Amos backed out of a deal made in good faith. Ice could have repaired the rig, opened up the legs so they fit right. But I feel that mr. Amos decided that he didn't want his product repaired, he wanted it refunded. Rather than lose good customers, Ice makes the return.

BEWARE Archivers. Situations like this have contributed to losing some of the most custom armorers we have. If we don't uphold our end of the deals on these orders we may find that we've run all of the decent armorers out of business and well all be wearing deepka helms.

Hmmm. I debated whether to post, or just to let the matter die. I know what happened, both versions, one from here,and from the horses mouth on the other.

Brother Amos, I don't know you, nor wouldn't know you if you sat beside me. So I do not mean to besmirch your honour or integrity. You have supporter here who have spoken highly of you. Why didn't you exchange it? You knew that Ice was already out the cost of the closed legs versus open, probably making the entire transaction even, or even negative for him.(In monetary terms) Knowing that he had already treated you fairly, and with respect, why didnt you just exchange it for another? I know Ice, he has treated me, perhaps in some ways an annoying newbie, and my loved ones with kindness. He has a well deserved, slowly-built reputation for integrity, honesty, and honour all in furthering his love of the SCA and the sport of heavy weapons. You know he is "legendary". What would waiting, another few weeks, for him to make it right have cost you? This was January...months till Gulf, Estrella, Pennsic.


You base much of your complaint on Ice changing the terms of the deal and the poor quality of the hauberk and legs. Ice says that he changed his return policy months before the batch order was placed and that the hauberk/legs, while having a few links cracked/damaged, were certainly servicable. And you know what, I BELIEVE HIM. You, and others here on the archive cannot have it both way. Its simple. Black and white. If you believe he is an honourable man and he treats people fairly in all his business dealings (as has been evidenced by the hundreds of good reviews here-5/5 on Frieman scale, etc.), then why would anyone now question him? Becaue of a lousy 700 bucks? Doesn't make sense.


Michael Forester

B. Amos wrote:I thank Icefalcon for doing the right thing. If if the product had not been substandard and the return policy had been in place before I had made my return I would have no leg to stand on. as it were it is not fair to a costomer to change policy in the middle of a transaction.

To those of you who think that I am a whiner or throwing a tantrum, I hope you never have to face a similar situation and I know that you would not say such things if you met me in person. I knew that making a negitave review of a SCA legand on the AA would not be a popular thing to do, but every word I spoke is the truth and the truth is not slander, besmerching or whining. It is very easy to sit there in internet land and judge others when in reality you haven't a clue.

Once again I aplaude Icefalcon for fixing this situation. And I wish him the best of luck in the future.

Let's not keep saying that the product is faulty. I have to sell these items. I will have them for inspection at Gulf Wars. If anyone is intersted in buying them, they can see them first hand. I will not expect anyone to keep faulty items and will always offer to exchange it if there is an issue as I did with Mr Amos.

Christophe de Frisselle wrote:Is is ten calendar days or ten business days for the return period? I don't recall ever having dealt with a retailer that used calendar days.

Regular US Mail will generally deliver packages in 3-6 business days just about anywhere in the US. 10 days covers holidays and weekends. This package was not sent until after the 10 days had gone by. It was about a month after I sent it that I had it returned to me. So we are not splitting hairs, here.

Dougal Forester wrote:Hmmm. I debated whether to post, or just to let the matter die. I know what happened, both versions, one from here,and from the horses mouth on the other.

Brother Amos, I don't know you, nor wouldn't know you if you sat beside me. So I do not mean to besmirch your honour or integrity. You have supporter here who have spoken highly of you. Why didn't you exchange it? You knew that Ice was already out the cost of the closed legs versus open, probably making the entire transaction even, or even negative for him.(In monetary terms) Knowing that he had already treated you fairly, and with respect, why didnt you just exchange it for another? I know Ice, he has treated me, perhaps in some ways an annoying newbie, and my loved ones with kindness. He has a well deserved, slowly-built reputation for integrity, honesty, and honour all in furthering his love of the SCA and the sport of heavy weapons. You know he is "legendary". What would waiting, another few weeks, for him to make it right have cost you? This was January...months till Gulf, Estrella, Pennsic.


You base much of your complaint on Ice changing the terms of the deal and the poor quality of the hauberk and legs. Ice says that he changed his return policy months before the batch order was placed and that the hauberk/legs, while having a few links cracked/damaged, were certainly servicable. And you know what, I BELIEVE HIM. You, and others here on the archive cannot have it both way. Its simple. Black and white. If you believe he is an honourable man and he treats people fairly in all his business dealings (as has been evidenced by the hundreds of good reviews here-5/5 on Frieman scale, etc.), then why would anyone now question him? Becaue of a lousy 700 bucks? Doesn't make sense.


Michael Forester

I agree with much of what you said, but I would temper the 'upper crust' vibe- just because $700 is 'lousy' or of little note to you, does not mean it is the same for all else. Certainly doesn't seem to be the case for the OP, integrity aside. But, it wasn't your money that was lost, so I guess I can see how you'd be blase about the figure...

Paladin74 wrote:

Dougal Forester wrote:Hmmm. I debated whether to post, or just to let the matter die. I know what happened, both versions, one from here,and from the horses mouth on the other.

Brother Amos, I don't know you, nor wouldn't know you if you sat beside me. So I do not mean to besmirch your honour or integrity. You have supporter here who have spoken highly of you. Why didn't you exchange it? You knew that Ice was already out the cost of the closed legs versus open, probably making the entire transaction even, or even negative for him.(In monetary terms) Knowing that he had already treated you fairly, and with respect, why didnt you just exchange it for another? I know Ice, he has treated me, perhaps in some ways an annoying newbie, and my loved ones with kindness. He has a well deserved, slowly-built reputation for integrity, honesty, and honour all in furthering his love of the SCA and the sport of heavy weapons. You know he is "legendary". What would waiting, another few weeks, for him to make it right have cost you? This was January...months till Gulf, Estrella, Pennsic.


You base much of your complaint on Ice changing the terms of the deal and the poor quality of the hauberk and legs. Ice says that he changed his return policy months before the batch order was placed and that the hauberk/legs, while having a few links cracked/damaged, were certainly servicable. And you know what, I BELIEVE HIM. You, and others here on the archive cannot have it both way. Its simple. Black and white. If you believe he is an honourable man and he treats people fairly in all his business dealings (as has been evidenced by the hundreds of good reviews here-5/5 on Frieman scale, etc.), then why would anyone now question him? Becaue of a lousy 700 bucks? Doesn't make sense.


Michael Forester

I agree with much of what you said, but I would temper the 'upper crust' vibe- just because $700 is 'lousy' or of little note to you, does not mean it is the same for all else. Certainly doesn't seem to be the case for the OP, integrity aside. But, it wasn't your money that was lost, so I guess I can see how you'd be blase about the figure...

I understand what Dougal is saying. $700 is not going to suddenly change someone's business practices. $700 is not enough money to make the average person lose integrity.

Agreed, YG. My only point to Dougal was that it may be a mere pittance for him, it is not necessarily so for the next man. FWIW, I still think you went above and beyond...as usual your customer service is above reproach but I wonder that this might open up the door.

The reason that I did not excange it or resell it is because Icefalcon indicated throuought our communications that he was "making so little on this transaction". I honestly sounded like sending it back for him to sell at the regular price that it would be better for him. As to the quality of the product that is my personal opinion and I have shown evidence to support it, others may differ on what kind of durrability that they expect from a $2,000 maille shirt and as Icefalcon has said he still needs to sell these so I will say no more on the subject and let people make there own decisions. If anyone has any questions on the durrability issue they can message me privately for more info.

I was going to chime in after reading the posts where greed was an angle, and after reading the whole thread I'll still say my piece on that, but I have to throw in another tidbit as well. First I just have to point out that money is certainly not what ice is about. I actively tried to pay for my shirt in full on order. He was rather adamant about NOT doing that even though I'm sure a little extra would be handy right about now. I can't even imagine a guy like that making greed-based decisions, or he'd have taken my money.

Second I've been in pretty much every position in this. I've had a business fail over making something right that I really didn't need to, but felt like I should. It wasn't armor, I was building pc's back in the day. For me the high ticket item that caused all the issue was losing value by the moment. The geek version of Tim allen would have been monkey chanting at it. Heh. Now it would be laughed at. I've also been where bills that couldn't be put off or we piling up and felt wronged by what later turned out to be a typo (Not exactly the same but close enough to understand the OP's point of view here). Where the guilt of purchasing something that I felt was extravagant AND feeling ripped off topped with the bill collectors, well it puts pressure on you to ask for things you might have blown off at another time. I don't know that I would have gone to a public forum in the OP's case, but I get it. Though I KNOW (With hindsight firmly in hand) that I wouldn't cough up a restocking fee on something that I don't just have a few lying about in stock. 'course if I'm ever in a similar position in the future there would be repeated explanations of restocking fees, or pre-order downpayments etc... but again that is hindsight talking.
A pre-order set up ties up your money. If you are doing it for a hobby that happens to bring in some extra cash hey that's all fine. If it is a business and your livelyhood every dime you don't have working for you tends to cost you. It's likely because the Ti doesn't devalue everytime you blink is the only reason he has the capability to refund the restocking fee. Sure he might get lucky and someone will buy the shirt relatively soon, or even eventually but it is still quite a bit of cash to risk on something that might collect dust for a while when it could have gone into things that sell quicker.

While I won't be getting my shirt for some time, I'm aware that there will be some jacked up rings. I'm also confident that if it is truly out of hand that I can send it back for another shirt. In my particular case though I also know that I wouldn't be seeking a refund but then again I spent nearly a month looking around at what I wanted and who I might buy it from. The 20% off and riveting tool thing and my wife FINALLY agreeing to Ti was just serendipity taking a hand. The Car is running btw. *snoopy dance* purring like a diseased kitten being pet with a rake, but running.

Apologies for being more ADD than usual, I'm fixing a car between paragraphs. I just hope I made some sense.

Damn, trust Ice to stand up remove all doubt by yet another demonstration of being a good guy.

Personally, I was going to suggest that they fight for it.
Tally

Ice did not do the right thing. Ice did what the customer wanted which are two very different things.

Why don't we just let this one die a natural death as both parties appear to have resolved the situation.

In regards to the custom vs off the rack, there are 2 items here; chausses and a shirt. The $160 extra was for the chausses, in the closed legging style vs the standard open-back style. Nobody should expect to buy a mail shirt that's open in the back as "normal". I don't think the chausses are in question here, just the shirt.

FWIW, my 9mm stainless riveted chausses and 9mm stainless riveted hauberk had a grand total of 8 or 10 rings with issues. A few came out from handling/wearing, a few were woven wrong (through 3 links instead of 4), and a few were bent substantially. Completely understandable based on the number of rings, and it was expected. Honestly, there were less issues than I expected. It was a nice surprise.

Riveted mail doesn't mean it's invulnerable or that rivets won't pop or it'll never get damaged; titanium, from what I know, work hardens much faster and much more brittle than the traditional metals we're used to. A picture of the entire shirt and it's damage would have been better than a picture of a single broken ring. 100 rings sounds like a lot, but compared to the total number in a haubergeon or hauberk, we're talking a couple percent, on a completely hand-made item - which seems more than reasonable given the price. If we want to split hairs, anybody priced some Erik Schmidt mail? And that's not titanium either. (not to bash his prices - just a price vs expectation comparison)

Ice doesn't make the mail armor himself. He can't be expected to unpack, inspect, and re-pack every item - unless we want prices to go up accordingly. I've never heard him refuse any reasonable exchange, which is what should have happened in this case - an exchange vs a full credit.

There was a misunderstanding and/or miscommunication in a high dollar transaction. The seller, being an honorable and upstanding man, bit the bullet to make the situation as acceptable to the buyer, who perceived a wrongdoing, as he could. That is what happened.

No other opinions or statements are relevant. The situation has been resolved.

Moving on.

If no other opinion is relevant, then, respectfully, why is yours? This was a public post, on a public forum.

I like Gorgonzola Cheese.

Broadway wrote:I like Gorgonzola Cheese.

Gorgonzola?!? That's just wrong.

Mozzarella is the way to go.

You fool.

Cristoval Ramirez wrote:

Broadway wrote:I like Gorgonzola Cheese.

Gorgonzola?!? That's just wrong.

Mozzarella is the way to go.

Broadway wrote:You fool.

Cristoval Ramirez wrote:

Broadway wrote:I like Gorgonzola Cheese.

Gorgonzola?!? That's just wrong.

Mozzarella is the way to go.

There is only one true CHEESE, Pepper Jack!


Weeeeeee FIGHT!

Well damn... I do love pepper jack...

Ah HA!

All Hail King Roquefort!

Lord of all that is cheese!

Fomunda. Yep, I went there.