SCA armor

delta_bravo37 · Post by **delta_bravo37** » Sun May 05, 2002 4:15 am

Hey,
I am in need of some cheap plastic armor. Plastic is light and durable for my purpose. Will anyone plz offer me some plastic armor? Thanks.

Joe Skeesick · Post by **Joe Skeesick** » Sun May 05, 2002 4:28 am

If you've got to do the deed do it here....

http://www.alchemyarmory.com/

Dale does some good work with plastic and seems to have pretty good customer service to boot.

J

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Sun May 05, 2002 4:24 pm

Is this a joke?

If not why plastic?

It's not light if you make it thick enough to be effective. It's not that durable either, it also ain't cheap. Look at Egg Armoury's site.

delta_bravo37 · Post by **delta_bravo37** » Sun May 05, 2002 8:45 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Murdock:
Is this a joke?

If not why plastic?

It's not light if you make it thick enough to be effective. It's not that durable either, it also ain't cheap. Look at Egg Armoury's site.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NO it isn't Plastic breastplate made of High Definition Polyethylene is the strongest plastic available and a breast plate only goes for $70. It is the same plastic and thickness used on the NALGENE water containers.

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Sun May 05, 2002 9:18 pm

BTW: its high DENSITY polyethelene.

Comparison of densities:
HDPE: 950 kg/m^3
Steel: 7850 kg/m^3

Now, you have to assume that a breast plate of steel and one of HDPE will have the same surface area. Therefore the difference in thickness is all that matters.

The question is: Is the HDPE plate 8 times as thick as the steel version. If not, it is lighter.

-+G

Brodir · Post by **Brodir** » Sun May 05, 2002 10:03 pm

Murdock, I'll bite on that. Plastic thick enough to be effective is lighter than steel, it's been proven a hundred times. I have plastic legs that are the same size and same style as my old steel legs, and weigh 1/3 as much.

As for cost, A segmented breastplate is plastic from Dalewyn costs $70, in plastic from Everard costs $85, and in steel from Ivar/Ron Simmons costs $90, with prices higher from other suppliers. Plastic isn't cheap, but it's cheaper than steel.

I don't like exposed plastic armour either, but if you insist on hashing up this argument, at least argue facts!

FACTS:

Plastic armour isn't cool. I've had 15 year old drunk kids who aren't even in the SCA tell me my plastic legs suck, that's why I wear pants over them.

Plastic armour isn't romantic; many of us got into this for a love of the look of an armoured knight. If those King Arthur books you read as a youth were illustrated with Launcelot duct-taping blue barrels to his thighs, you wouldn't have fallen in love with the imagery. It makes little difference when I'm fighting, but when I'm armouring up and I see all this crappy gear around, I have a hard time getting 'into the mood'.

Plastic armour isn't authentic; many of us do this out of a love for the past. Julius Ceasar, Roland, Egil Skallagrimsson, Henry Percy, none of them used plastic armour, so why the hell would you? These guys used maille, steel plate, leather, and they won great renown for themselves, we can do it in a simple sport.

Plastic Armour discourages improvement; Bob finds out he likes the SCA, so he makes plastic body armour with a surcoat over, leather arms, and buys a beautiful set of polished steel legs. As he fights, he notices that lots of the guys in hockey pants or plastic legs run, jump, and sit crosslegged between bouts, while he waddles around like he sh*t his pants in a heavy set of leg armour. Because everyone else has light leg defences, Bob must switch to a lighter leg defence if he wishes to remain competitive. This is acceptable as long as he switches back to an authentic leg harness once he learns his trick shots and combos and gets his defence down, but nobody does; they get used to wearing the light 'trainer' stuff, and stay in it.

Just some thoughts.

~Wil

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Mon May 06, 2002 12:02 am

"I'll bite on that. Plastic thick enough to be effective is lighter than steel,"

Read again, I didn't say steel. BUT to make a piece of plastic that is as effective as a piece of steel the plastic has got to be really thick.

And Ron isn't $90 for body armour.
His base $51 in stainless, $36 in mild.

Still cheaper than buying a piece of a cut up plastic bucket.

i was arguing facts.
Your other facts are true as well, but they don't seem to phase anyone. We've tried them.
I didn't bring it up either.
I honestly thought it was just an archiver trolling as a joke.

delta_bravo37 · Post by **delta_bravo37** » Mon May 06, 2002 12:38 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Murdock:
"I'll bite on that. Plastic thick enough to be effective is lighter than steel,"

Read again, I didn't say steel. BUT to make a piece of plastic that is as effective as a piece of steel the plastic has got to be really thick.

And Ron isn't $90 for body armour.
His base $51 in stainless, $36 in mild.

Still cheaper than buying a piece of a cut up plastic bucket.

i was arguing facts.
Your other facts are true as well, but they don't seem to phase anyone. We've tried them.
I didn't bring it up either.
I honestly thought it was just an archiver trolling as a joke.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok if you get me some steel armor then I will buy it from you. OK? What is the cheapest you could get it for me?
I will need a gorget and a breast plate. I will look for cheaper plastic armor and I will prove to you that it is better than steel movement wise.

Brodir · Post by **Brodir** » Mon May 06, 2002 1:39 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Murdock:
[B}
And Ron isn't $90 for body armour.
His base $51 in stainless, $36 in mild.[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's for the solid breastplate, check prices for the segmented, which is what I priced from Everard and Dalewyn. Ron's segmented breastplate is $90. I'm sure Dalewyn and Everard could offer a solid breastplate cheaper than what they charge for segmented, less work = less cost.

I didn't mean the first post to come off as rude, it sounds a little pissy. Sorry bout that, typing with the TV on, two babies playing loudly, and my GF asking me a million questions results in poor wording

DB- I'd recommend you save your money and buy something decent when you can afford to, there is a lot of crappy armour hiding in peoples closets and garages, and when you start asking them to dust it off and sell it to you for next to nothing, odds are you'll be unhappy with what you end up with.

Ivar · Post by **Ivar** » Mon May 06, 2002 8:07 am

As a provider of steel armour, I WANT to say order from me. As a fighter, I MUST say order whatever you want. Don't let anyone stop you from doing this-- no one but you has to fight in or wear the armour, so it's really no one elses business what you wear. I wear steel, leather, and a pair of Dale's gauntlets. I chose this combination because it is the best for my style and I'm not now, nor ever will be, interested in 100% accurate.

Wear what you want, but if you want steel, buy from me

------------------
Ivar Bloodhand, Norsetrader Arms
http://www.valhallaleather.com
Official distributor for Ron Simmons and "Rough From the Hammer"

"I got a sweater for Christmas... I wanted a screamer or a moaner"

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Mon May 06, 2002 9:29 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by delta_bravo37:
I will look for cheaper plastic armor and I will prove to you that it is better than steel movement wise.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where is the honor in using plastic as an advantage? Real knights didn't have plastic. I feel stickjocking is dishonorable, but maybe thatâ€™s just me. I also donâ€™t think it's a real advantage. Real sword knowledge it the true advantage IMHO.

Flonzy

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Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.

Winterfell · Post by **Winterfell** » Mon May 06, 2002 9:37 am

But is plastic armour proof against archers?
(Sorry just had to add that.)
Well since SCA is not a history reenactment group per se anyways, what you want to wear when you fight in this sport is up to you. Just please cover it with something, anything except a carpet.
I prefer steel myself.

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"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Mon May 06, 2002 9:43 am

I will need a gorget and a breast plate. I will look for cheaper plastic armor and I will prove to you that it is better than steel movement wise.

Impossible. I'm not busting your balls, but a rigid placte over your neck is going to provide the same movement issues if it is made of steel, leather, clay, or plastic.

Likewise a rigid Body plate will be behave similarly.

The only advantage I could see is a difference of atmost 5 lbs. If 5 lbs puts you over your load limit, then perhaps something is wrong.

-+G

Ivar · Post by **Ivar** » Mon May 06, 2002 11:40 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by flonzy:

Where is the honor in using plastic as an advantage? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who said anything about honor? Maybe this guy just likes plastic? Maybe he's going to cover it in fabric/leather/tunic? Maybe he portrays a time period when there WAS no plate, and he just needs protection? Maybe he's just starting out? Maybe this guy isn't a knight? Maybe he isn't even SCA, but knew that it was the easiest way to get the attention of this board?

Real knights didn't have plastic. [/QUOTE]

Real knights didn't have stainless steel, 12 ga helms, bargrills, basket hilts, aluminum shields or rattan swords either-- what's your point?

I feel stickjocking is dishonorable, but maybe thatâ€™s just me. [/QUOTE]

And you're entitled to it. But to a lot of us, this is a sport, and nothing else

I also donâ€™t think it's a real advantage. [/QUOTE]

Have you tried it? What's your basis of comparison?

Real sword knowledge is the true advantage IMHO.[/QUOTE]

Maybe he fights Polearm? Spear? Combat archery? Or a different group altogether, that has restrictions on when you can wear plate?

I'm sorry if I'm coming down like a ton of bricks here, but we all need to lighten up. Just because we don't agree with someones choice, why do so many of us feel the need to demean that choice? I'm just as guilty of this an anyone else, and I'm trying to change. If we jump down everyone's throat just because we don't like the first thing they say, where's the honor in that??

------------------
Ivar Bloodhand, Norsetrader Arms
http://www.valhallaleather.com
Official distributor for Ron Simmons and "Rough From the Hammer"

"I got a sweater for Christmas... I wanted a screamer or a moaner"

[This message has been edited by Ivar (edited 05-06-2002).]

Winterfell · Post by **Winterfell** » Mon May 06, 2002 12:12 pm

My personal opinion is why bother with plastic in the first place. From some of the posts it seems that a mostly plastic kit is not all that much cheaper than metal, and the weight does not seem to be much of a factor, which leaves movement and looks. So does plastic give greater movement? Maybe maybe not. And as for looks well... that is entirely up to the individual.

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"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics

Prince Of Darkmoor · Post by **Prince Of Darkmoor** » Mon May 06, 2002 12:49 pm

delta_bravo37, do me a favor. Ignore everything in this thread except for the first post about Alchemy Armoury. If you're going to do plastic, go with them.

Tim Finkas · Post by **Tim Finkas** » Mon May 06, 2002 1:05 pm

I am curious as heck just to see the armor you folks are talking about, but the website seems to be down.

I have often thought about the idea of making rotomolded High Gothic or Maximillian armour. If it was tough enough, there might be a decent theatrical market and sport-combat market too. The molds would be pretty expensive so you'd have to sell alot of it to make such an enterprise worthwhile.

------------------
Tim Finkas<A HREF="http://finkas.home.netcom.com/Forgerie/Index.html" TARGET=_blank>
The Historical Forgerie</A>
Coming Soon: Getting a clue, Getting a real life, Getting priorities in order, Getting a job(?)

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Mon May 06, 2002 2:46 pm

[img]http://www.dbis.ns.ca/~dalewyn/dale2.jpg[/img]

The website can be viewed at :

http://www.dbis.ns.ca/~dalewyn/
(normally alchemyarmory.com forwards to that address, Ifin I'm not mistaken)

-+G

Winterfell · Post by **Winterfell** » Mon May 06, 2002 3:03 pm

I'm sorry, but... yuck!

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"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Mon May 06, 2002 3:55 pm

Ivar

You are right I got a little over the top.

The comment of "I will look for cheaper plastic armor and I will prove to you that it is better than steel movement wise." always gets to me. I don't Like SCA style rules that allow low weight armor take the same kind of blow as plate. I think plate should have advantages like LARPs give it over chain. There was a reason chain went to transitional armor that went to full plate with chain in the under arms and one overalls.

But maybe that's just the authenticity nazi in me.

I also hate cheap garb so what can I do about it anyway?

Flonzy

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Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.

Auto · Post by **Auto** » Mon May 06, 2002 4:33 pm

Hiya

Plastic is cheap when you make it yourself. My first suit of plastic cost me $12.00 US (not counting my $60.00 wolf's head armoury "ragin' gorilla helm"). Beg a plastic barrel off of a car wash, use a friends jig saw, and drill,(but I have made holes in it with a X-acto knife before), and your wife's/ G/F's 15.00 hair dryer to shape it. I paid for copper rivets, but roofing nails are cheaper, and work fine. Old leather straps and belts are not hard to find, and many have buckles already attatched. There are plenty of patterns here on the archive that will work fine in plastic.
If you just dont want to bother, and are looking for a handout

. I have men at arms that need my old stuff more

Edited to remove a capitol L and to add an e!!

Fair Winds
Auto

[This message has been edited by Auto (edited 05-06-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Auto (edited 05-06-2002).]

Amalric Unomen · Post by **Amalric Unomen** » Mon May 06, 2002 6:25 pm

Plastic is cheap and easy, a suit from Dale is what 400, and it comes strapped. I did not want plastic, bought steel for about 900, then had too buy leather, tools, drill bits, punches and try to get the whole thing to fit. Still need to do more and now I want to scrap it for a 15thc rig. I would have been much better off to just buy the ugly Dark Victory stuff until I knew what I really wanted. Buy in haste, repent at leisure. -- Who said that?

[This message has been edited by Amalric Unomen (edited 05-06-2002).]

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Mon May 06, 2002 11:02 pm

#1 He said it was for SCA in the Topic.

#2 Yes, everything is cheaper if you make it, but he wants to buy.

#3 If it's just a weight advantage ya want go with a good thick gambeson. We know it's lighter no need to prove it, you can drop weight without resorting to barrels. BTW if you use them anyway, be very sure you know what was in them. You can get some nasty stuff stored in barrels, be careful.

#4 We did give you a cheaper metal alternative to plastic. http://www.valhallaleather.com/

If ya need a gorget i make em, i'll send ya one for free just to keep plastic off the field.

The stuff from Alchemy is the least goofy looking i have seen.

Ned Chaney · Post by **Ned Chaney** » Tue May 07, 2002 10:38 am

That doesn't look that bad really. Better than Egg armour for sure. How does he dish the elbow/knee cops and shape the greaves??

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Quid Corone

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Tue May 07, 2002 11:19 am

If I remeber correctly, he has metal forms of the armout that he forms the hot plastic over.

-+G

Dalewyn · Post by **Dalewyn** » Wed May 08, 2002 12:22 am

Hey, my ears are burning. Seriously guys, I have to respond to this one. I'm not trying to make the best period armor ever; I'm trying to make something that is halfway decent, and at a battle doesn't draw attention. My main concern is how it protects the fighter. I use 1/4" HDPE for most of the SCA legal target areas; 3/16 for the arms and gorget. A full suit (minus helmet) for me weighs about 20 lbs. Keep in mind that I'm only 5'4" tall; a full suit for a 6'6" behemoth could weigh about 40 lbs. Compare that to a suit of 16 ga steel (about the average for SCA, 18 ga mild doesn't hold up that well) at about 60 lbs, again minus helmet. I don't want to think what the weight of the 6'6" guy's armor would be in full plate; probably more than I weigh.
I just sent off a suit for a guy 6'1" 250 lbs; his full suit (including full gauntlets and half gauntlets) was 13 kg (28 lbs), including the box. So the 1/4" HDPE weighs half or less.
Winterfell: It is better than bright blue or green plastic, which is what I'm trying to replace.
I shape my armor by heating it and clamping it to stainless steel forms of the correct shape. For complex curves, such as knees, elbows and pauldrons, you need a positive and a negative.

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Dalewyn
Dalewyn@dbis.ns.ca
www.AlchemyArmory.com

[This message has been edited by Dalewyn (edited 05-08-2002).]

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue May 14, 2002 7:05 am

God Bless you guys...

I wander off for a couple years and haven't missed a damn thing. And that's a good thing.

Lord Jaques Beau D'Mont
Shire of Rokeclif
Principality of Northshield
Midrealm

Dalewyn · Post by **Dalewyn** » Thu May 16, 2002 9:14 pm

Thanks for letting me know that my site was down. It was actually a little mix-up by the .com people and my site providers, should be fixed now.

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Dalewyn
Dalewyn@dbis.ns.ca
www.AlchemyArmory.com

[This message has been edited by Dalewyn (edited 05-16-2002).]