The Armour Archive

I need a basic helmet I have very little to spend honestly im looking for a rusty piece of gear. Im a japanese persona so im going to have to cover your basic sca helmet anyway. Please send me a link. And if you have a helmet please give me a call 561-225-8201. the cheapest I could find was 135 can someone do under a hundred.

No, but I can do $125 and I can even make it a bit japanese...

(^_^)

Personally I wouldn't trust my head to anything that cheap. Unless it was made by Hjalmr.

Takai, go with Hjalmr and get it "a bit Japanese".

The helmet is your most visible part of your kit. It is the first thing people see when they look at you and will be a factor in forming their first opinion of you on the field.

You will get a good quality helmet that will serve you for several years, and you will be "That japanese guy" rather than "That guy with the japanese persona who fights in rusty bucket."

The helmet will likely last you long enough to the point where you will be known as "Takai, the ass kicking samurai" and fighters who buy the helm from you (when you eventually upgrade) will be known as "They guy fighting in Takai's old helmet."

I have many friends who have regretted armour purchases. I never have. In part because I took my time and purchased what I actually wanted and needed rather than the first thing I had the money for. Don't buy a rusty bucket.

+1 for hjalmr.

Vladimir wrote:Takai, go with Hjalmr and get it "a bit Japanese".

The helmet is your most visible part of your kit. It is the first thing people see when they look at you and will be a factor in forming their first opinion of you on the field.

You will get a good quality helmet that will serve you for several years, and you will be "That japanese guy" rather than "That guy with the japanese persona who fights in rusty bucket."

The helmet will likely last you long enough to the point where you will be known as "Takai, the ass kicking samurai" and fighters who buy the helm from you (when you eventually upgrade) will be known as "They guy fighting in Takai's old helmet."

I have many friends who have regretted armour purchases. I never have. In part because I took my time and purchased what I actually wanted and needed rather than the first thing I had the money for. Don't buy a rusty bucket.

Everything Baron Vlad just said is spot on. I will also add that your head and your hands should be the most expensive part of your kit, as they should be the best protected.

Hjalmr is your man. He'll do you right when he says he can do something you'll be happy with for that cost.

The helmet is IMO the centerpiece of your kit. If you want a specific helm for a specific persona take the extra time and save if you have to or really shop around. Don't buy some rusty piece of crap.

Hmmm. While I agree with Isabella in general, I disagree on a couple details. First though, always remember that a helm protects your BRAIN, without which the rest of you is little more than a meat sack. So you do not ever want to cut corners as far as safety. However it does not follow that a more expensive helm is safer than a less expensive helm. The best way to insure a safe helm is, buy from someone who has a reputation for making safe helms and get it inspected before you fight in it the first time. (a step that is often skipped at practices, which is dumb. You can't tell the dr "but it was just practice" and have him say "Well, that changes everything, I guess you don't have brain damage"..) All that said, I do not recommend making a big investment on your first helm, as it will almost certainly be replaced at some point. No one ever stays in his / her starter armor. So my suggestion is, look for a helm that is safe first and foremost, then affordable. When you have been fighting a while and have a better idea of what you like, THEN invest in a nicer, more period helm. Hjalmr makes helms that are both safe and affordable, and at the same time are decent enough looking that you needn't be ashamed to be seen wearing the thing. Just my two cents.

accdntprone wrote:However it does not follow that a more expensive helm is safer than a less expensive helm.

Not directly... but it takes me twice as long to dish a top in 11g vs. 14g. So... yeah....

accdntprone wrote:it will almost certainly be replaced at some point. No one ever stays in his / her starter armor.

While this is largely the case... a guy could make the argument that the reason no one stays in starter armor is that it's starter armor.

All that said, I do not recommend making a big investment on your first helm, as it will almost certainly be replaced at some point. No one ever stays in his / her starter armor. So my suggestion is, look for a helm that is safe first and foremost, then affordable. When you have been fighting a while and have a better idea of what you like, THEN invest in a nicer, more period helm.

I also must disagree here:
We all agree that the helmet is the most important protection we wear, and many believe that it is the keystone for the entire kit. Regardless if you get a low end or high end helmet, it sets the standard for everything you do afterward. You'll learn to fight in that helm. You'll tailor your armor to that helm. That helm defines your kit. Being the most important part, it also tends to be the most expensive, and therefore something that even if you wanted to replace, you may not be able to afford to. I've been fighting for about 4 years now and never replaced my "starter" helmet. It works as well as the day I bought it (better actually), still looks reasonable, would be expensive to replace, and I am used to it. Most of the people I know fight in the helmet they first bought (loaner gear aside).

@ Mattmaus, Assuming we are talking about sca heavy, not live steel, 11 gage is quite a bit beyond saturation point when it comes to safety. My spangen tops are made of 14 gage, with 1" of overlap between bands and plates. None have ever failed in sca combat, and I have been making the things for 20 years. It takes me about an hour and a half to make the top. Yes, it would take me much longer to make the same top out of 11 gage, but the 11 gage top would be no safer.
@ Bo, From my perspective a heavy fighter with 4 years in the game IS still a new fighter. Your perspective may be different.

Hah, very fair. I don't feel new but I bet I am awfully green when comparisons start being drawn. You are right in that I will probably have another helmet before the end.

Yeah, and when hanging out with Nissan and the gang I forget that not everyone has been playing this game for 40 years . To them IM the noob. (been playing for about 20 years)

accdntprone wrote:@ Mattmaus, Assuming we are talking about sca heavy, not live steel, 11 gage is quite a bit beyond saturation point when it comes to safety. My spangen tops are made of 14 gage, with 1" of overlap between bands and plates. None have ever failed in sca combat, and I have been making the things for 20 years. It takes me about an hour and a half to make the top. Yes, it would take me much longer to make the same top out of 11 gage, but the 11 gage top would be no safer.

I've been using the 11g because my steel supplier isn't stocking 12g anymore. Which sounds weird, but when you know what's up with them isn't as weird.
According to my "magical wheel of gaugeyness" it's about a difference of 0.014". Negligible in the scope of armoring. Course, the sheet metal gauge wheels are universaly out of date. Every single one I've seen still has 16g at 0.0625" and industry standard anymore is 0.059".
While 14g is legal, and in many cases safe, it sometimes get's iffy.
Says right in the rulebook for SCA that mass is a key element of protection from concussion. A helmet doesn't have to fail (or even take a dent, though it probably would) for someone to get concussed.
I don't make just spangen helms. I make some helms that have little to no reinforcement from overlapping plates. Say... bascinets.
I have a smallish bascinet shell on my half finished projects shelf done in 14g, with a 16g visor. The WHOLE helmet weighs in at about 6 lbs. I certainly wouldn't feel safe fighting in it, and I am in no way ever going to sell it as SCA heavy combat legal (though it'd make a dandy C&T hat), even though, technically it probably is (though, it'd need a different visor).
By way of comparison 12g tops from Cet weigh pretty consistently at 5 lbs. and the 11g tops I've been dishing are just over that. My scale isn't at all accurate, and is older than I am, but give or take 2 oz.
Method of construction can factor in as well. I build my helmets differently than I perceive (and I could well be wrong on that mark) you build yours. I dish 2 halves, weld the center inside and out, and applique the spangen bands as an after thought. Typically, I'll drop the bands to 16g because they're non structural, and with my methods, it get's to where it's better to cut a bit of weight. If I understand correctly, you're doing a more "traditional" construction, with individual quarter panels, and the band work is in fact structural and we can probably agree that no, you wouldn't want to cut YOUR bands down to 16. Neither is right or wrong IMO, just different.
Similarly, I'm planning a helmet for my daughter. I'll be doing it in 14g. She likes the "klinker" style spangens, and the pattern I've worked up has 7 overlapping plates to a side. 14g is going to be MORE than enough and if I did THAT one in the 11g it would be murderous overkill and break her neck.
Lastly, what is considered to be a failure can vary from person to person. A dent, or several, may or may not qualify. Bonk, there's a dimple in your hat isn't a safety issue, really, happens all the damned time. But for some customers who want a high end hat, it's better to have a heavier base material, because they don't want to pay good/big money for something that's not going to last. The 4-5 times I've been asked for 10g stainless (which yeah... is pushing well into overkill) attest to that.

Also... I in no way mean to question the safety of your helmets. They are by all accounts, just fine. While I've never seen one up close and personal, your photographs and written descriptions of construction/materials give me no doubts at all, rather I assume that if I did have one in my hot grubby paws, I'd not find any grounds at all to bounce it.

I suppose then the dickering point is, if you say with no qualifiers or caveats that 14g is perfect, and I say that no, 11g is better, we are at that point BOTH wrong, and the actual answer to "What thickness should a helmet be?" is a whole pile of "that depends."

One of our local guys bought a new bascinet. 14 gauge, with a piercework visor, no drape. Pretty helm but super lightweight. Makes me nervous seeing him wearing that thing.

Caius705 wrote:One of our local guys bought a new bascinet. 14 gauge, with a piercework visor, no drape. Pretty helm but super lightweight. Makes me nervous seeing him wearing that thing.

Bascinets, not counting the aventail of course, run some of the lightest helmets around in my experience. Sheet/plate visors also run quite a bit lighter than grills.

Yeah, when it comes to helms I tend to think and speak in spangenhelm, because that is what I make the most of. I do an occasional basinet, and I make them of 12 gage. Not for dent resistance, but for mass, which the basinet has little enough of. No, the particular idea that I was trying to contest was that a helm has to cost $500-$600 to be safe. One, because I simply do not think its true. Two, because I feel that people pushing that idea at new fighters costs us a lot of those new fighters. And to bad you (mattmaus) don't live near by. I have a shit ton of high carbon 12 gage I don't know what to do with. (scrapyard find).

accdntprone wrote:I have a shit ton of high carbon 12 gage I don't know what to do with. (scrapyard find).

Steak knives?

80 square feet worth of steak knives..... Yeah I'll pass.

Sounds like a reason to start working hot...
If the quality is there in the material perhaps axes or laminating with Nicr or German silver for decorative blades.

If nothing else I can make myself some period(ish) flatware for pennsic

I think the subject has gotten de-railed.

The man needs a helmet.

indeed. Unfortunately I am in no shape to make him one. I believe hjalmr has a couple in stock though.

Matt and John are correct. Mass of the helm keeps the squishy gray blob from slamming into the walls.

Simply adding an aventail to a helm (properly, of course) will add mass and historical accuracy (especially for basicnets)

My kits total weight is 35#. 15# of that is helm and aventail.

My squishy gray blob is still in the walls, and has not slammed into them for many years.

I think you all chased the man off. (^_^)

Hrolfr wrote:Matt and John are correct. Mass of the helm keeps the squishy gray blob from slamming into the walls.

Simply adding an aventail to a helm (properly, of course) will add mass and historical accuracy (especially for basicnets)

My kits total weight is 35#. 15# of that is helm and aventail.

My squishy gray blob is still in the walls, and has not slammed into them for many years.

Something that confuses me since I'm not an armored fighter: how does adding an aventail to the sides/bottom of a basinet help protect against blows to the *top* of the helm? Wouldn't the mass and weight have a protective effect only where the blows land?

Tibbie Croser wrote:Something that confuses me since I'm not an armored fighter: how does adding an aventail to the sides/bottom of a basinet help protect against blows to the *top* of the helm? Wouldn't the mass and weight have a protective effect only where the blows land?

Same reason you stack your canned goods on the bottom shelf, and bog rolls on top. Mostly... sort of.

While the weight in that case is bottom centric, it still helps keep the helmet not moving, or moving slower.

accdntprone wrote:If nothing else I can make myself some period(ish) flatware for pennsic

Or, you could make some pretty awesome seax knives for viking persona fighters. Find/buy some choice woods/bones to make the handle out of and you'll find some pretty happy buyers I'm sure.

accdntprone wrote:I have a shit ton of high carbon 12 gage I don't know what to do with. (scrapyard find).

If I may ask, which alloy?

Boris_
Unsure. I packed it home thinking it was just mild steel. It wasn't until trying to work with it and weld it that I started thinking otherwise. Bit of research and a spark test suggest a higher carbon content. If there is a way to narrow it down further, I personally don't know it.