The Armour Archive

As one who works on REAL armour day in, day out, the fact that someone would complain about a lopsided helm is absolutely ROFLMAO.

I already said your policy is quite clear on your website. That said, does the perceived flaw inhibit the function of the helm visor in any way or does it negatively effect the safety of the wearer or the durability of the helm?
It doesn't seem so from the photos you posted. I hope PayPal doesn't screw you over and give this guy a free helm.
You've already made more than a reasonable offer to resolve the issue. The customer has just decided otherwise. For some there just isn't a reasonable resolution.

Have them strip the paint and send it back. Refund them and blacklist them. If they fell on hard times (it happens) *they* need to sell it, not try for a refund. Sell the helmet to someone else with full disclosure.
Buyer's remorse is why I do not and never have take credit cards or paypal.

From the pictures it does look wonky, and not just the hinge being mounted crooked. Pictures don't always show what things look like in person.

If you feel like the helmet isn't up to your usual standard, then you need to replace it even though they painted it.

However since they painted it you can't give them a full refund unless they clean the helmet up and make it in original condition. Or they accept a partial refund that accounts for your labor and material to return the helmet to a saleable condition.

WendallVonDerEisenstein wrote:From the pictures it does look wonky, and not just the hinge being mounted crooked. Pictures don't always show what things look like in person.

If you feel like the helmet isn't up to your usual standard, then you need to replace it even though they painted it.

However since they painted it you can't give them a full refund unless they clean the helmet up and make it in original condition. Or they accept a partial refund that accounts for your labor and material to return the helmet to a saleable condition.

Sorry, I'm calling bullshit here. Return policy is pretty straight forward, this guy customized the helm before he noticed the flaw (which seems to suggest he's poor in eyesight, has no eye for this sort of thing in general or has buyer's remorse, or a combo of all three), but no matter what his damage is, he altered the piece thereby invalidating the chances for a return. Simple.

Personally, I wouldn't think his custom was worth going the extra mile given the circumstances.

You have to what you can live with. We all have bad transactions sometimes but you have to come to a resolution that doesn't leave you with a bunch of regrets. For me that means maybe getting taken advantage of, but my reputation is most important in a hobby and a business where so much of it comes from word of mouth and referrals.

Amanda M wrote:You have to what you can live with. We all have bad transactions sometimes but you have to come to a resolution that doesn't leave you with a bunch of regrets. For me that means maybe getting taken advantage of, but my reputation is most important in a hobby and a business where so much of it comes from word of mouth and referrals.

I get that; and I'm reasonably certain Matt's the same way, otherwise he wouldn't have bothered with this thread. I think in his case, with the reputation he has, he need not worry about this one guy crushing his business. So many others can attest otherwise so while he may do a little damage, mostly among his friends and cronies, the society at-large isn't going to think ill of him. Certainly won't stop anyone who knows him from doing business with him.

Paladin74 wrote:

WendallVonDerEisenstein wrote:From the pictures it does look wonky, and not just the hinge being mounted crooked. Pictures don't always show what things look like in person.

If you feel like the helmet isn't up to your usual standard, then you need to replace it even though they painted it.

However since they painted it you can't give them a full refund unless they clean the helmet up and make it in original condition. Or they accept a partial refund that accounts for your labor and material to return the helmet to a saleable condition.

Sorry, I'm calling bullshit here. Return policy is pretty straight forward, this guy customized the helm before he noticed the flaw (which seems to suggest he's poor in eyesight, has no eye for this sort of thing in general or has buyer's remorse, or a combo of all three), but no matter what his damage is, he altered the piece thereby invalidating the chances for a return. Simple.

Personally, I wouldn't think his custom was worth going the extra mile given the circumstances.

Maybe the guy doesn't have a good eye for armour ( and in this case if a layman can notice it why did the crafter ship it?)and didn't notice it until after it was painted because they shiny hid some flaws, or maybe his wife hadn't seen it until it was painted and she noticed it. Or maybe he thought it looked weird and the paint would fix it and he didn't want to try and get a refund from the armorer because of all the bad stories he reads on here.

Honestly the helmet doesn't look like the same quality work as the ones advertised on his website. From the pictures the eyeslots are different heights & different widths and the crease of the face doesn't line up with the crease between the eyes and then the hinge is off center and mounted crooked on the helm top. Also the crease lines around the eyes are really roughed up. The customer didn't do any structural changes and paint is cosmetic and easily removed.

If Matt is ok with it being representative of his work when you buy from him, then great.

Maybe you could send pictures of the finished product before sending it out to the customer next time, make the transaction if they agree to the quality.

Wendall: without a picture from straight in front, all I can see is that the metal band above the spring pin is *slightly* off center. I can't see a "wonky" helm. Since the idea that a human head is symmetrical is asinine, the idea that a helmet must somehow magically be symmetrical is also equally asinine.

Matt: is there a pic available from straight ahead?

the only *solution* I can think of is to have them take the helmet to an auto body shop and have it sandblasted and ship it back in otherwise-intact state, whereupon you refund them the price of the helmet minus the cost of polishing.

Frankly, anybody who would paint a helmet before fitting it doesn't sound like they're firing on all thrusters to me. Moreover, anybody who knowingly lives where it's humid and doesn't buy a stainless helm also isn't firing on all thrusters.

Blackbow

WendallVonDerEisenstein wrote:From the pictures it does look wonky, and not just the hinge being mounted crooked. Pictures don't always show what things look like in person.

If you feel like the helmet isn't up to your usual standard, then you need to replace it even though they painted it.

However since they painted it you can't give them a full refund unless they clean the helmet up and make it in original condition. Or they accept a partial refund that accounts for your labor and material to return the helmet to a saleable condition.

Definitely looks like the customer is being unreasonable here. But as a word of warning--PayPal is very ready to settle all disputes in the buyer's favor! They are not given to hearing out a seller's side of the story. Things like this happen. I don't know if PayPal still has the power to reverse the customer's initial payment, but if they do, be careful.

Am I the only one that sees this? This picture looks like it is straight from in front.

Main issue with that picture... Not straight on with the lense very very close to the helm. That close and at an angle throws some wonky stuff in the mix that the eye has to interpret. That is why when we look at pics of originals, we have to deduce where the lighting and camera were placed to see how much distortion has occured. Ask Mac, he'll tell you all about it.

When was the helmet purchased? Have you considered that the timing of this post plus a week or two correspondence between Matt and his customer means that it could have been a Halloween "rental. We haven't seen in this post when the helmet was shipped or when they had a said they had a problem with it but just from the timing of the post my first thought is suspicion. Kultofathena has a great refund policy but they don't accept refunds for items bought during October and at least part of November to keep the 'free Halloween rental' purchases down. Have you considered if this might be the case of someone who bought the helmet, used it a the show piece of a costume, then sent it back wanting a full refund and thus having a kick ass costume at a very reduced cost?

WendallVonDerEisenstein this is a $450 helmet.

Here are 550 reasons why it is not flawless http://www.anshelmarms.com/bascinets.html

Currently the customer has ceased correspondence.

Ouch, is the paypal case still open or do you think they are no longer contesting?

Well hopefully this will get resolved with you being able to keep your compensation. But, it sure looks like they are trying to hose you. This sucks because paypal and credit cards make it so easy for the customer to pay plus get reward points. However, it leaves sellers open to having to grab their ankles.

One compromise to consider if you do have a situation like this again is to offer to pay for the shipping back to you. Customers are very reluctant to spend additional money after they feel dissatisfied and paying for the shipping seems like the smallest amount you could spend that might satisfy them.

James Arlen Gillaspie deals with REAL armor as a job. When he says that medieval armor wasn't always perfectly symmetric, take that to heart.

Most people want "modern medieval" with exact lines and exact match and ducal-grade quality for peasant-wage prices. Things like this will happen, such is life and hand-made goods from a small hand full of people who can even make this sort of thing. I've bought from Matt before, and no complaints. It's exactly what I expected for the price point.

It looks to me like the only real problem with this helmet is that if they want it to line up perfectly straight, the turning pin lock for the visor is off-center and it throws off the line of the center visor up through the ridge of the helmet up to the comb. It's not unusual for a bascinet to be slightly off. It may also have a bit to do with the angle of the picture, a single picture can skew perspective substantially.

In regards to what to do on this... it's one thing if they said "we painted it and now it looks crooked", but you don't pad a helmet and then say "oh now it's crooked". It's hard to see in the pic but it looks like the padding is blue smurf guts that is probably just glued in; that'll be a pain to remove and not everybody wants cheap blue foam glued to their helmet, especially with a historical visor instead of a bar-grill. I would have possibly refunded if they had only painted it, but with the padding too, I'd make them pay for shipping, and a 20% restocking fee.

Thought I`d update on this. First the buyer sent me an e-mail about 15 days after launching their dispute saying they`d send it back for repairs and then before I`d even replied the very next day they escelated the dispute to a claim. I provided all the e-mails, the photos supplied by the customer of the modified helmet etc. Paypal claimed to have reviewed the case and decided in favor of the buyer and also stated that the item must be returned in original condition. So obviously they didn`t actually review the claim. The helmet arrived back today. Called paypal and told them the item wasn`t returned in original condition. Which the person on the phone was able to realize within 30 seconds of looking at the information in the dispute. The paypal agent let me know that the case being decided in favor of the buyer was an agent error and that the return should never have been allowed. The spring pin that the buyer claimed was non-existant in their paypal claim is in fact in place and fully functional. Paypal says that because it was an agent error and the return should never have been allowed that the refund to the buyer will be processed and a new case will be opened and the full amount refunded to me as well. Will wait and see if I have to jump through any hoops before this actually happens and will update if it does or not.

So I think I tried to be reasonable with a customer who was completely nuts. I`m not going to name names unless I need to respond to this person making claims about me.

This is the only paypal dispute I`ve had ever. So if anyone notices someone claiming that I tried to rip them off or something and paypal decided in their favor please be aware that paypal has admitting to fucking up on deciding the claim and that the return should not have been allowed. Also be aware that if someone is bitching about a paypal claim involving me you likely don`t want to do business with them but of course that`s totally up to you.

Good to hear Paypal is seeing it your way.

Its not "crooked", its historically accurate.

Anyone who objects to asymmetry, in all honesty, can go fuck themselves. (though I might refrain from saying that to the particular customer's face... ) These things are hand-made. yes, lines sometimes deviate from the straight and narrow... Tough.
Lines are laid in by eye, not by CNC machine. 10 helms of the same size will have 10 different dimensions. Same with swords. Same with daggers, Same with any other piece of armour. Anyone trying to argue otherwise is a gobshite. I can pull 100 items out of my reference library with fullers and midribs that wander all over the place, combs that are squint, cuisses that curl in different directions, etc. In some of the cases, on items which were the possessions of princes, and royalty.

People did not all get an identical iArmour off the production line in c̶h̶i̶n̶a̶ milan. The medieval eye looked on asymmetry in a completely different way to modern consumers.

Its time that fact was understood more widely.

(edited to fix typos)

+2 What Suzerain said and I'm glad paypal found in your favor.

I am really glad paypal sees you side man. It is never fun to deal with a crazy customer in any business. Heres to hoping that you get whats due to you back.

Suzrain hit the nail on the head. A lot of time I sit and become uber critical over symetry and "why doesnt it look right?" Well, come to find out I usually made the piece too symetrical and lost the feel of the original.

Looks like it was a nice helmet before they goobered it up with the black paint.

So it sounds like your psycho customer will get his money back and have no helmet. You will get paid for the helmet, and will have a helm to resell with a bit of clean up. Sounds like a win for the good guys here overall.

My experience with paypal customer service (on the phone) has been nothing but outstanding. I've not been overly impressed with their response to email inquiries, but as soon as you get an agent on the phone they seem to have a strong customer service ethos and will bend over backwards to make sure customers are satisfied.

Glad it's working out in the end despite the frustration of dealing with a crappy customer.

Brucer

So......does this mean you'll have a black discounted helm for sale in the near future?

It probably wasn't as noticeable UNTIL he painted it BLACK. Ever see a black car after it was hit? Wavy gravy man.

If he is just talking about filing with PayPal against you I would try and work it out like this. HE pays to have the helm sent back to you. YOU credit him back HALF what he paid as well as any amount up to the full price he paid when you're able to resell it. Make sure he agrees to this in some way that can be proven if he changes his mind again. Then fix it, TRY to get full pop for it and send him whatever he has coming fast. He may or may not think you're a chump for allowing him to work you like that, but NO ONE would ever be able to say you didn't take the higher road, and your out of pocket would be minimal.

Back in the old days we wouldn't even think about complaining after doing something like that to it, but this is a different day and time. You DO admit the helm isn't up to your usual standards. I don't like it, but the more I think about it, the more I'd want this one to go away quietly.

Don't let this get you down, it could always be worse - you could be related to them!

Thought I'd update on this. After telling me they would refund me paypal started demanding a whole bunch of documentation on how the fact that the helmet I sent wasn't the same helmet I got back. The stuff they asked for would have taken me a couple days of work to aquire and cost me a couple hundred bucks that I don't have. So I decided to just accept that this customer ripped me off and cut my losses.

This experience has made me very open to a new line of work if one should present itself. In the meantime I'm going to decide if I'm going to spend a few hours to remove all the paint and glue from the helmet or just try to sell it as is.

The helmet was originally $450 feel free to make an offer for it in either as is or cleaned up condition if you're interested in it. I could really really use the money right now.

I'm not going to name the person involved unless I need to reply to them claiming I tried to rip them off etc.

This is really disappointing.

If I were you, I would put it up for sale here on the archive, as is. And also throw it up on the different SCA facebook pages. I know there is a 14th Century Mafia page and an armour page for SCA.

Other than the fact it's painted black, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this helm.
And don't throw in the towel because of the individual who put you in this spot. You are well respected, you make quality work and the game would be lessened if you departed.

Yours in service,
James Edgarson

Simple before and after pics wouldn't satisfy Paypal?

If it were me, I'd name the customer as a warning for other merchants to steer clear of..

I think the sticking point is that Matt got his helm back, and they already gave the customer his money back. So as far as Paypal is concerned, everything is as equitable as it can get between both parties without losing money themselves.

They can't take the money back from the customer (As stated, they already gave him a refund). So they (Paypal) would have to suck up the loss, which they which they aren't likely to give up unless it becomes a legal matter. And because Matt admittedly got the helm back, Paypal doesn't want to buy the helm off of him. And they REALLY don't want to pay him the full amount of the helm and have him turn around and sell the helm which he now has for even more profit.

I hate to say it, but I sort of can't blame Paypal as they are simply a facilitator of funds. They aren't responsible for the buyer's remorse. And they didn't make the federal fraud laws (You don't have to accept returns. You CAN state 'all sales are final'...except in the case of defects, which is covered under federal law as well as some states and in a few; buyers remorse is valid up to several days of receipt). The buyer sent back the helm and used the magic words "Zim-zim, zhalla-bim, DEFECTIVE!" (which it sounds like he did). So if Paypal ruled that Matt keep the money and then the buyer were to sue, Paypal doesn't really have a leg to stand on because he returned the helm due to "defects". Eventually they would have to give him a full refund regardless.

What constitutes defects under federal law? Well, let's just be happy you didn't pay court fees just to find out what a judge "feels" is a defect or not, depending on his/her disposition and what they had for lunch.

I agree it would be great if Paypal dug into their pockets and gave Matt the money out of their own coffers...But I just don't see it happening. They wouldn't still be in business if that was a policy.

Now having said that; The buyer is a huge douche and I hope karma causes him to get a financial ass chewing.

What a mess. :/

I hope Matt doesn't hang it up because of one bad transaction- that would be tragic.