Folks,
I'm looking for a Museum Replicas 16th Century Cut and Thrust Parrying Dagger (reviewed on myArmoury), if you have one that you're willing to sell.
Please PM me if you have one to offer.
Thank you.
Best,
Mark Millman
Wanted: MRL 16th Century Cut and Thrust Parrying Dagger
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Mark Millman
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Wanted: MRL 16th Century Cut and Thrust Parrying Dagger
Last edited by Mark Millman on Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mark Millman
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Re: Wanted: MRL 16th Century Cut and Thrust Parrying Dagger
Have you considered getting the A&A version of this? They're both inspired by the same original.
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Mark Millman
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Re: Wanted: MRL 16th Century Cut and Thrust Parrying Dagger
Dear C. Gadda,
In fact, I have the Arms & Armor version. The MRL dagger is much larger. While A&A's dagger has a foot-long blade, MRL's is fifteen inches. The grip is apparently an inch or so longer, too.
The review I link above says that A&A, or at least Chris Poor, made the furniture for MRL's dagger. But in some correspondence I once had with Bruce Brookhart he refuted it:
Best,
Mark Millman
In fact, I have the Arms & Armor version. The MRL dagger is much larger. While A&A's dagger has a foot-long blade, MRL's is fifteen inches. The grip is apparently an inch or so longer, too.
The review I link above says that A&A, or at least Chris Poor, made the furniture for MRL's dagger. But in some correspondence I once had with Bruce Brookhart he refuted it:
So despite their similar appearances, the two daggers have some significant differences; and I want to have both.On Wednesday 29 January 2014, in private correspondence, Bruce Brookhart wrote:I took a look at the review and thought you might be interested in this. First both the sword blade and the dagger are DEL TIN blades from Krupp55 German steel. Second Chris Poor a.k.a. Arms and Armour never did any of the parts we used in our stuff. Hank did use a couple of axes from Chris in about the 3rd catalog and Atlanta Cutlery did sell 6 or 7 dagger parts from him for a short time. This sword and dagger was done by Eddie Floyd and I think it was his best work of the few things he did while he was with us. Anyway some people love this kind of info so I thought I would let you know.
Best,
Mark Millman
Re: Wanted: MRL 16th Century Cut and Thrust Parrying Dagger
Very interesting - I didn't realize they were that different, though that's more from not paying attention. Bruce's account, though, isn't quite correct. It's not false, but it misses some nuance.
A&A were the first to come out with this dagger, which they made from "molds taken from the original". I can trace it back to their 1989 catalog (and it may be even older, but that's the oldest catalog of theirs I possess), while the MRL version did not come out until 1993. Since Chris Poor seems to have handled the original, then I suspect his version is more accurate. Thus, it would appear that Eddie Floyd probably used the A&A version as a model (speculation on my part) and then designed a set of sword fittings inspired by the dagger to make the en suite set, and opted for a longer dagger blade in the process.
However, Bruce is quite wrong about A&A offerings in MRL. I have all of the MRL catalogs from #1-45 (and quite a few later ones from after the Windlass takeover) and have put all their contents in a crude sort of "database" in Excel. In fact A&A had some 30 offerings from Catalogs 2-19, including axes, maces, war hammers, poll arms, helmets, shields, and some "daggers" (specifically a large stiletto, and a couple of cast bronze daggers sort of similar to the Jody Samson "dragon claw" dagger). Unfortunately, according to a friend of mine who worked at A&A back in the mid-80's he stated that they really didn't make a lot of profit from the MRL sales, which is why they stopped selling through them.
The mention that A&A supplied some dagger components to Atlanta Cutlery was an eye-opener - I thought it was the other way around!!! I have a 1988 catalog and there are indeed exactly six different offerings - 3 crossguard plus 3 pommel types, offered in either brass or steel. Thanks for providing that quote - very informative!
A&A were the first to come out with this dagger, which they made from "molds taken from the original". I can trace it back to their 1989 catalog (and it may be even older, but that's the oldest catalog of theirs I possess), while the MRL version did not come out until 1993. Since Chris Poor seems to have handled the original, then I suspect his version is more accurate. Thus, it would appear that Eddie Floyd probably used the A&A version as a model (speculation on my part) and then designed a set of sword fittings inspired by the dagger to make the en suite set, and opted for a longer dagger blade in the process.
However, Bruce is quite wrong about A&A offerings in MRL. I have all of the MRL catalogs from #1-45 (and quite a few later ones from after the Windlass takeover) and have put all their contents in a crude sort of "database" in Excel. In fact A&A had some 30 offerings from Catalogs 2-19, including axes, maces, war hammers, poll arms, helmets, shields, and some "daggers" (specifically a large stiletto, and a couple of cast bronze daggers sort of similar to the Jody Samson "dragon claw" dagger). Unfortunately, according to a friend of mine who worked at A&A back in the mid-80's he stated that they really didn't make a lot of profit from the MRL sales, which is why they stopped selling through them.
The mention that A&A supplied some dagger components to Atlanta Cutlery was an eye-opener - I thought it was the other way around!!! I have a 1988 catalog and there are indeed exactly six different offerings - 3 crossguard plus 3 pommel types, offered in either brass or steel. Thanks for providing that quote - very informative!
Re: Wanted: MRL 16th Century Cut and Thrust Parrying Dagger
BTW, I've had an interest in the sword that was offered in this set for quite a long time now. Unfortunately, it never seems to come available. There was an eBay auction probably ~10 or so years ago that featured one, but it turned out to be a Windlass copy made after that company took over MRL. In hindsight I wish I had won it, though at the time I was relieved I lost (or didn't bid, one of the two) since it was Windlass and not DT. At this point I'm tempted to have A&A make me a custom version of the sword, probably using their Town Guard sword blade as a basis.
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Mark Millman
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Re: Wanted: MRL 16th Century Cut and Thrust Parrying Dagger
Dear C. Gadda,
As you recognize, Bruce was relying on memory after two decades, so it's not surprising that his reply isn't quite accurate. If he had any kind of emotional investment in the process, as seems not unlikely, then there's even more reason for a loss of nuance in his answer.
Eddie Floyd may well have had access to the original dagger, as it's part of Hank Reinhardt's collection. I think you're right about his choosing a longer blade to better match the sword and generally be more impressive (or maybe it was just what Fulvio had easily available at the time), although I wonder whether that wasn't also partially to help distinguish the two reproductions.
There's someone on one of the sword fora (I believe on SBG) who's been looking for that stiletto, so I certainly should have remembered it. And now that you mention the other items, I do very vaguely remember some--wasn't the Iberian Mace prominent among them during their run? I didn't know that Atlanta Cutlery had carried A&A components, but I think I wasn't aware of them that far back. Since you refer to it, I think it would be interesting, should you be so inclined, if you could find the time to post your list of those parts and weapons.
Anyway, I'm happy to have been able to contribute Bruce's note to the general fund of knowledge, and to learn the information that you've collected.
I actually have one of the Windlass copies of the sword. It has brass rather than steel furniture, and a shorter, more tapered grip covered with vinyl instead of leather. The arms of the hilt sit rather close to the ricasso--they may be more shallowly curved than those of the steel version seem to be, or the ricasso may be wider--which can make it hard for some people to finger the guard. Oddly, it has a feature that the original model hasn't got--there's a narrow fuller in the blade's forte, although it's not particularly well centered. The sword isn't awful; I'd describe it as solidly mediocre. You may still be relieved to have missed it.
The A&A custom you mention sounds like it would be very cool. You'll have to post if you do commission it.
Best,
Mark
As you recognize, Bruce was relying on memory after two decades, so it's not surprising that his reply isn't quite accurate. If he had any kind of emotional investment in the process, as seems not unlikely, then there's even more reason for a loss of nuance in his answer.
Eddie Floyd may well have had access to the original dagger, as it's part of Hank Reinhardt's collection. I think you're right about his choosing a longer blade to better match the sword and generally be more impressive (or maybe it was just what Fulvio had easily available at the time), although I wonder whether that wasn't also partially to help distinguish the two reproductions.
There's someone on one of the sword fora (I believe on SBG) who's been looking for that stiletto, so I certainly should have remembered it. And now that you mention the other items, I do very vaguely remember some--wasn't the Iberian Mace prominent among them during their run? I didn't know that Atlanta Cutlery had carried A&A components, but I think I wasn't aware of them that far back. Since you refer to it, I think it would be interesting, should you be so inclined, if you could find the time to post your list of those parts and weapons.
Anyway, I'm happy to have been able to contribute Bruce's note to the general fund of knowledge, and to learn the information that you've collected.
I actually have one of the Windlass copies of the sword. It has brass rather than steel furniture, and a shorter, more tapered grip covered with vinyl instead of leather. The arms of the hilt sit rather close to the ricasso--they may be more shallowly curved than those of the steel version seem to be, or the ricasso may be wider--which can make it hard for some people to finger the guard. Oddly, it has a feature that the original model hasn't got--there's a narrow fuller in the blade's forte, although it's not particularly well centered. The sword isn't awful; I'd describe it as solidly mediocre. You may still be relieved to have missed it.
The A&A custom you mention sounds like it would be very cool. You'll have to post if you do commission it.
Best,
Mark
Re: Wanted: MRL 16th Century Cut and Thrust Parrying Dagger
Thanks for the link to the Hank Reinhardt collection - I have gone to it in the past but didn't realize this dagger was a part of it! Too bad he didn't post dimensions. However, using the pictures of Hank's original, the A&A version, and the DT/MRL version from catalog No. 21, I made an interesting discovery roughly comparing the ratio of grip length to blade length , as follows:
1580s Dagger
Original Blade to Grip ratio: 4.6:1
A&A BtoG ratio: 4:1
DT/MRL BtoG ratio: 4.625:1
(Note well that I am squinting at my tiny laptop screen with the given picture up and trying to measure with a ruler... YMMV)
SO... I was completely wrong - the DT/MRL version is more accurate in terms of its proportions, and given the revelation that this was owned by Hank then it is very likely that the DT/MRL is a fairly close copy, even to the point of having the spiral grooves in the grip much like the original (a feature that I considered goofy when I noticed it, given the leather grip wrap, but now makes sense). You are quite justified in your quest to find this particular version!
Regarding the fellow looking for the old A&A large stiletto on SBG that would be me... I have a different name/alias there (why? no particular reason, just in that sort of mood when I signed up.) Also still looking for an old A&A warhammer that was also offered through MRL as well. Not holding my breath on either...
You know, now that I have some specifics on the original I may approach A&A for a precise reproduction, with the correct blade length and grip. I'll let you all know if and when I do.
I'll supply some more MRL & A&A details but I think I'll start a new thread over in the "Interpretive Re-Creation" forum, since this would go well beyond the scope of this thread.
1580s Dagger
Original Blade to Grip ratio: 4.6:1
A&A BtoG ratio: 4:1
DT/MRL BtoG ratio: 4.625:1
(Note well that I am squinting at my tiny laptop screen with the given picture up and trying to measure with a ruler... YMMV)
SO... I was completely wrong - the DT/MRL version is more accurate in terms of its proportions, and given the revelation that this was owned by Hank then it is very likely that the DT/MRL is a fairly close copy, even to the point of having the spiral grooves in the grip much like the original (a feature that I considered goofy when I noticed it, given the leather grip wrap, but now makes sense). You are quite justified in your quest to find this particular version!
Regarding the fellow looking for the old A&A large stiletto on SBG that would be me... I have a different name/alias there (why? no particular reason, just in that sort of mood when I signed up.) Also still looking for an old A&A warhammer that was also offered through MRL as well. Not holding my breath on either...
You know, now that I have some specifics on the original I may approach A&A for a precise reproduction, with the correct blade length and grip. I'll let you all know if and when I do.
I'll supply some more MRL & A&A details but I think I'll start a new thread over in the "Interpretive Re-Creation" forum, since this would go well beyond the scope of this thread.
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Mark Millman
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Re: Wanted: MRL 16th Century Cut and Thrust Parrying Dagger
Dear C. Gadda,
You're very welcome for the link. It is a pity that none of the objects in the collection have dimensions, but I think that the folks who set up the site don't know as much about weapons, or what people will want to know about them, as Hank did--there seems to be some confusion about the identities of several items.
You make a fair point about the difficulty of measuring photos on a laptop screen; and then there's the possibility of distortion in the photos, which can be subtle. But even so, the numbers you got are very interesting. I note that, at the same time that MRL's lengthwise proportions look better, A&A's widths seem to be more in line with the original's. Also, if you look at the close-up of the grip--or at least, when I look at it--it seems that there may be impressions in the wood from a now-missing twisted-wire wrapping. Dan Rosen here had A&A make him one of these daggers mounted that way and it strikes me as more typical of fashionable grip treatments of the period than the leather grips.
It's probably wise not to count too strongly on finding the stiletto or the hammer after three and a half decades or so.
If you ask A&A for a more precise replica of the dagger, I'll be very interested in seeing the result. By all means, please do post about it.
Thank you very much for the information in the other thread!
Best,
Mark
You're very welcome for the link. It is a pity that none of the objects in the collection have dimensions, but I think that the folks who set up the site don't know as much about weapons, or what people will want to know about them, as Hank did--there seems to be some confusion about the identities of several items.
You make a fair point about the difficulty of measuring photos on a laptop screen; and then there's the possibility of distortion in the photos, which can be subtle. But even so, the numbers you got are very interesting. I note that, at the same time that MRL's lengthwise proportions look better, A&A's widths seem to be more in line with the original's. Also, if you look at the close-up of the grip--or at least, when I look at it--it seems that there may be impressions in the wood from a now-missing twisted-wire wrapping. Dan Rosen here had A&A make him one of these daggers mounted that way and it strikes me as more typical of fashionable grip treatments of the period than the leather grips.
It's probably wise not to count too strongly on finding the stiletto or the hammer after three and a half decades or so.
If you ask A&A for a more precise replica of the dagger, I'll be very interested in seeing the result. By all means, please do post about it.
Thank you very much for the information in the other thread!
Best,
Mark
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Mark Millman
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Mark Millman
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Mark Millman
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Mark Millman
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Mark Millman
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Mark Millman
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Mark Millman
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Mark Millman
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Mark Millman
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Mark Millman
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Mark Millman
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Mark Millman
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Mark Millman
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Mark Millman
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Mark Millman
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Mark Millman
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Mark Millman
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Mark Millman
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