Ice Falcon legs at more than 50% off?????

[Morgan]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... RK:MEWA:IT

One day to go and these are still sitting at $100? Dang!

[Karl]

Sad but true, I think the post-Pennsic economy is hard on the armor market.

Incidentally I had posted this link earlier and someone from Houston emailed me asking me to remove this off of the AA citing a boyfriend or something.

For what its worth I believe this is a legitimate auction however as I have received emails from the seller and she seems honest and forthright (I intend to buy both the arms and legs if I can for my Knight, Duke Stephen of Beckenham). I offered $200, then $250, but the auction is non-cancellable or something.

Good hunting,
Karl

[Brian W. Rainey]

OK, maybe you guys can help me with this...

Why are IceFalcon's products such a wanted and coveted thing?

What makes them so desirable in the SCA?

I have handled a few pieces and have my opinions. I am just wondering what other people think.

[Guest]

They are shiny and nigh indestructable.

I was bummed I sold my Ice Gothic legs when I started fighting again, until I got my Illusion armoury gothic legs...

The only bad thing I can think of of the legs I got from Andre was that they were a bit stiff at first... but that didn't last longer than a day of fighting.

[VikingLeather]

I'll Save Them

[Karl]

I personally think it has a lot to do with Andre's personal status (read: very highly esteemed) in the SCA as well.

My trainers here in the Midrealm, both Dukes themselves, swear by Icefalcon and when I ask "why?" they quickly point out that Andre is "one of the guys that will be around for the entire life of your armour".

I have also never heard anyone say that they have experienced an unresolved customer service issue or received that holier than thou "I am a re-enactor and you are merely SCA" attitude with Ice - that is unique in my experience.

Ultimately it's just great SCA armour, but from my perspective, it's his service that seems to be really exceptional.

Hope this helps,
Karl

[Sir Thorfinn]

Agreed. The armor is shiny (good in my book) and darn near indestructible by SCA standards. I have had some of my Brother Knights have issues with blow-outs or breakage, and Andre cheerfully fixes it and they are ALWAYS happy afterwards...this is a very rare thing amongst SCA merchants. My only beef with his stuff is I have neveer been able to afford any of it until recently...and by then I went cheap Viking....

Thorfinn

[Karl]

aaagh Epson the Gnome has outbid me, I'm down for the count.

[Brian W. Rainey]

aaagh Epson the Gnome has outbid me, I'm down for the count.

Is he an underpants gnome... I don't like underpants gnomes. They are nasty little creatures. They keep driving their little underpants gnome cars around my sock and undies drawer and leaving skidmarks all over the place.

[Morgan]

the seller is my squire sister, the owner of the legs is her boyfriend. I don't have a clue why they'd want "advertising" for their auction to be removed.

Sad but true, I think the post-Pennsic economy is hard on the armor market.

Incidentally I had posted this link earlier and someone from Houston emailed me asking me to remove this off of the AA citing a boyfriend or something.

For what its worth I believe this is a legitimate auction however as I have received emails from the seller and she seems honest and forthright (I intend to buy both the arms and legs if I can for my Knight, Duke Stephen of Beckenham). I offered $200, then $250, but the auction is non-cancellable or something.

Good hunting,
Karl

[Morgan]

While the armour isn't historically accurate by any means, Ice has fantastic customer service and backs his stuff better than most everyone, and certianly AS WELL as anyone. I don't think that MANY people really give a damn that he's a duke in the SCA when they buy from him, but it may influence some.

[Sinister_Theo]

I am the owner of the legs and arms for sale from ice, the greaves have already been sold.

I had to sell them due to moving from Michigan to Texas.

As far as questions feel free to post here or email me to theodric1@yahoo.com.


Thanks Morgan for letting me know about this thread.

Theoderic

[Woodstock]

I too agree that Icefalcon has a great product as well as awesome customer service both of which are an extremely rare find these days and for whatever it is worth I have purchased from him in the past and would do so again in the future.

Are his designs 100% historical? No, but they are not advertised as such. Are prices higher than other armourers? Perhaps, but most items are always in stock and you will get your order when promised. That in itself is worth the savings of time-lost and being ignored by someone you sent a ton of money to.

Why is customer service so important you may ask? Well, consider anyone who bought from Armourworks or the Armourstore and got shafted. The product was great, but the customer service was more than lacking and even if they stayed in business I believe that word of mouth would eventually have killed them off anyway.

It is sad but true that many merchants fall on their arses and take their customers with them. Andre, on the other hand, is a man of honour both in and out of persona.

Mr. Rainey, if I may ask, what are your opinions?

[Brian W. Rainey]

Now that the auction is over, I believe:

My opinions are that they are shiny. They seem to hold up in SCA combat. From what I have heard the customer service is good, as you pointed out this is a VERY good thing especially in the world of SCA armour. More people should follow the same practices.

I resold a complete IF harness for a gentleman who posts frequently on this board. They were never worn and sold off immediately upon receipt, if I remember correctly. If he wants to post and back this up it it his perogative.

The gentleman wanted to go more authentic and purchased HE instead, I believe. Probably a result of brain washing by me. I do not believe he paid a whole lot more for the HE kit and ended up with a better fitting and therefore functional result. Some of the HE stuff was off the shelf, I think... not sure what, if any, was custom.

Points of interest that I remember and have seen since are:

- Articulation is often very sloppy. For the cost I would expect quite a significant improvement in what I have seen as par for the course. Articulation is simple and should be closely fitting and clean, not loose and sloppy.

- Often times rivet placement at joints is very sloppy. The material around the lames/cops in question were bulged or bent out so that the piece would bend over/around the rivet.

- Articulation rivets were put in at an ANGLE and very poorly peened. I pulled one out by hand and two others with a pair of pliers without harming the surrounding material.

- The brass/copper rivets that are used to hold leather to metal could EASILY be swapped with something less obtrusive. That alone stands out and really bugger up the overall look.

Overall - the high price is paid for the shine, not the workmanship, I would hope... from what I have seen. These instances may very well be isolated.

However, for the price that they are charging... there is a lot to be desired in form/style/function. I have worn and played with a few pieces and it does not wear like medieval armour should, either.

There is place for the armour in which it works beautifully, I am sure. Otherwise people would not swear by it.

I simply do not think medieval representative armour when I look at it. I think fantasy/LARP/role play. I am skewed to the more authentic side. Therefore, my opinion stems from there.

It is all in what people want. As SCA sport armour I am certain it fills a necessary niche.

I am in no way trying to insult anyone here or tarnish reputation. I am stating a review of what I have handled. Entirely factual to the best of my knowledge.

ACK! The underpants gnomes are back... I need to run!

[lorenzo2]

Mr. Peters, I think Mr. Rainey has already given us his opinions about the gnomes. Were you refering to something else? Seriously though, my engineering clients work with the same contractors over and over because they like the customer service they are getting. Within a reasonable range price is usually not the highest priority, quality, schedule, dependability are the over ridding concerns. Icefalcon has smartly realized that there is plenty of money to be made by not even trying to compete with the bottom feeders. Instead Icefalcon provides the service that customers really want and it gives him a big edge over the competition.

As to period appearance, this is an important point to me. However, few off the board share my opinions. Icefalcon has realized that many don't even recognize the difference and wouldn't care if they did. Knowing the customer is another important route to success in business.

[Brian W. Rainey]

Icefalcon has smartly realized that there is plenty of money to be made by not even trying to compete with the bottom feeders.

Who, pray tell are the bottom feeders? I know SCA armourers and... I have yet to identify more than two classes:

Off the shelf (Ice Falcon, Red Falcon, etc, etc)
Custom (WMA, etc)

I am not sure where the top and bottom is for each group, I guess.

[lorenzo2]

Brian, I'd rather not name names . However, I have seen "armor" for sale that does not resemble anything ever worn in period, is poorly made, looks bad even for fantasy, doesn't offer reasonable protection, and has only one selling point, its cheap. Tell me you have not seen some spun domes like this? I have.

For example, I saw a girl bounced from an event by the marshals for trying to participate in such a helm. Shame on the person who sold her that crap and told her it would pass inspection. She was a newbie who did not know any better. Luckily a chivalrous gentleman provided her with a lowner. I hope she was able to get her money back, but I doubt it. Anyway, that is what I mean by bottom feeders. Off the shelf does not necessarily mean bottom feeder.

[Sir Daniel]

My perceptions is IF stuff is very well made and he is a very reliable businessman (not the norm in armourring cirlces).

I prefer my mrks/Ti stuff, which is even more indestructable, but as armour merchants go, if you can stand the price, IF is one of the armourers I recomend all the time.

[Brian W. Rainey]

Wade Avery, et al:

I was going to compare the IF prices/workmanship with other instock armourers. However, I will stick to the topic of my earlier post and only ffer my opinion of IF armour that I had to alter to make it useable/sellable.

The pictures are of resold IF armour that were sent to me this morning in support of my review.


They have been making armour for how many years and are only at beginner level construction, again, this is being nice.

The pictures below are from the gentleman who was disatisfied with the construction/quality/function/price of his purchase. It is easy to see that the p

Please note that I am more historically focussed and am more than likely biased towards armour, rather than armour shaped objects. I have not put in anything that is historically innacurate as I understand that IF customers have no ambition towards historic accuracy and the product is not marketed/sold as such.

My main issue is that a "reputable armourer" would send this out to a customer without an expressed letter of apology.

QA processes were obviously not applied in any of these cases:

SCA Shoulder protection - $165.00:

[img]http://www.armourguild.org/members/brian/toys/if/Shoulders1.jpg[/img]

SCA Leg protection - $350.00:

[img]http://www.armourguild.org/members/brian/toys/if/Legs1.JPG[/img]

SCA Arm protection - $350.00:

[img]http://www.armourguild.org/members/brian/toys/if/Arms2.JPG[/img]

Assorted rivet placement/articulation issues:

[img]http://www.armourguild.org/members/brian/toys/if/Rivets1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.armourguild.org/members/brian/toys/if/Rivets2.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.armourguild.org/members/brian/toys/if/Rivets3.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.armourguild.org/members/brian/toys/if/Rivets5.jpg[/img]

Now, I have not pointed out anything other than the MOST BASIC functional and quality issues. We are not talking rocket science or authenticity nazi issues. Simply, these issues could be remedied by paying attention when assembling. They look as thought the goal was to make as many as possible rather than create a product to be proud of. The same/similar issues have been present to one degree or another in every piece of IF armour I have seen. I have even reviewed his table at major events ans see the same issue present.

My opinion has been provided as asked. How construction practices such as these equate to a great product is completely beyond me. If it were provided at a novice price, I could almost agree. However, at the premium prices I am almost sorry for the customers.

[AB Hammer]

Ice Falcon made his prices high to purchase a larger amout of armour and armour parts, then he had his guys polish the heck out of it, before assembly. So useing the money from the number of avalabulity allowed him quick delivery at 3 time the price. This was a soud buisness practice eventhough the customer paid for it, like buying a 20oz coke for a $1.20 over a six pack of 20oz at $2.50. But it was fast, and that is what your standard SCA member wants. Speed over quality it seemed, and he knew just what to do, and got a good rep for it. I myself use to wholesale to him and due to a disagrement stopped it.
Now I have 3 part-time students/apprentices and am working on making them an armoury to keep your eyes on, not allowing them to make the mistakes I have. But to have good historic based armour at prices all can afford to purchase.
I have learned alot from "IF" but I won't let polish cover questionable quality. Like Brian, I have had to rerivet quite a few of "IF" armour so the guy could move in it, or not keep from falling apart.

No offence to Sir Aundrey for if we lived close together and got together I would have let him be incharge of buisness and I would have done quality controle and design. I would have only tried to taper him back on pricing a little bit more, but with my design they would have been worth it.

AB Hammer

[Stonekeep]

One thing that I have always heard from Icefalcon is if you EVER have ANY problems with his armor, contact him immediately, as EVERYTHING he sells is GUARANTEED for LIFE and he will fix or replace it.
I feel that alone warrants a higher pricetag.

BTW: Yes I carry some of Andre's armor, and my apprentice takes it to events along with ours and he makes a modest 10% on it. I don't feel that this is worthy of my time in posting... However, the quality of the man, and the beauty of the armor he sells, coupled with a lifetime warranty is worthy of my time and praise.

[Brian W. Rainey]

One thing that I have always heard from Icefalcon is if you EVER have ANY problems with his armor, contact him immediately, as EVERYTHING he sells is GUARANTEED for LIFE and he will fix or replace it.
I feel that alone warrants a higher pricetag.

Well, you just similarly described the policy for most of the reputable SCA armourers. Most all of the reputable ones stand behind their work 100% Heck, even Bokalo has this policy, if I remember correctly.

IF does not stand alone on this pedestal, yet their prices are significantly higher. That was one of the core elements that I took into consideration in my review. I did not mean to offend anyone. My opinion was asked and I gave it.

To illustrate my point, here is an SCA armourer with a comparable reputation to IF who offers stainless spaulders for less than half the price... and the quality is definitely better and the finish is equal:

http://www.gaa-armouries.com/P-001.htm

Also, the fact that money was paid and the product delivered with problems as viewed in the above pics truly had a weight to my impressions, also.

[Duke Icefalcon]

I really resisted posting to this message, but it bothered my sleep last night that my rep was getting trashed. I am not an artist, but a simple craftsman. We have been making armor for 16 years now. If you think our armor looks bad now, you should have seen it 10 years ago.... We try to improve our designs and materials over the years. We just raised our prices this week. The last time we adjusted prices was about 6 years ago and most of the prices went down as we streamlined our process. We have had to adjust up as everyone I deal with has raised their prices and it is finally putting a crunch on our business. (stainless alone has quadrupeled in price over the last few months.)

I only use the BEST of materials. This not only includes our stainless, but the leather, rivets and buckles. We have always included the finish in the price of our armor. We have always inluded strapping and stood behind our work.

I live in NJ. If you make less than $40,000 a year here, you are considered to be living in poverty. If I did not care about living a decent enough life to put food on the table for myself and my girlfriend and her daughter, I might consider keeping my prices where they were a week ago. I would rather provide my family with the very small modest house that I have, rather than make them live in a trailer in the woods.

Do not mention HE (Historic Enterprises) in the same category as myself. The armorers there are artists. The make MUCH nicer armor than I have the skill to make. I was looking at their spring steel legs this summer with awe (as far as I know, they do not work in stainless). They were charging $1595 for the pair of legs and had I the disposable income, I would have bought a pair. I think they were worth every cent.

Although I respect your opinion, Mr Rainey; you are comparing apples and oranges. Our armor is the best bang for the buck in the middle range armor category. That is why we do so well. Is it perfect in all manners? No, it is not. I do not spend the same amout of time that HE does making a set of legs, but I do not charge as much. I DO however, take the time to make sure that every piece of armor that I send out looks and functions properly. Sometimes I miss something and happily take it back to correct any function problems that I missed. I have also made adjustments for fit for those who might have gained or lost weight, for no charge.

I am not going to talk with any negativity of my fellow armorers. I have not jumped in on conversations that bash my brothers for their service or quality when they came up. Everyone fit a niche. You pay for what you get in this line of business. If you do not deliver with price, quality or service, you will die. Many companies have come and gone and we have thrived. I believe we deliver on all acounts. If I felt otherwise, I would make changes.

I have offered a less expensive line of armor that came with a brush polish, and no strapping for far less money and still sold more of the polished and strapped armor.

I have pride in my work and I will never take advantage of the people who put bread on my table. Even after making armor for many years, I might not have reached the levels of the top armorers in our field, but I do not display myself as a master armorer; nor do I charge like one.

[Brian W. Rainey]

I really resisted posting to this message, but it bothered my sleep last night that my rep was getting trashed. I am not an artist, but a simple craftsman. We have been making armor for 16 years now. If you think our armor looks bad now, you should have seen it 10 years ago.... We try to improve our designs and materials over the years. We just raised our prices this week. The last time we adjusted prices was about 6 years ago and most of the prices went down as we streamlined our process. We have had to adjust up as everyone I deal with has raised their prices and it is finally putting a crunch on our business. (stainless alone has quadrupeled in price over the last few months.)

Mr. Sinou,

I apologize if it looks to you as though I am trashing your rep. This was not my intent. A review is simply that… a review; i.e., one person’s opinion, hopefully based on fact. I have based my findings not on my opinion. I tried to keep it based on fact, to the best of my knowledge. If I missed on any account call me to the table and I will acknowledge that.

I only use the BEST of materials. This not only includes our stainless, but the leather, rivets and buckles. We have always included the finish in the price of our armor. We have always inluded strapping and stood behind our work.

This is a good thing. However, you can make a car out of the best materials and if it is fundamentally flawed through engineering or QA is lacking… it is not a good car.

I live in NJ. If you make less than $40,000 a year here, you are considered to be living in poverty. If I did not care about living a decent enough life to put food on the table for myself and my girlfriend and her daughter, I might consider keeping my prices where they were a week ago. I would rather provide my family with the very small modest house that I have, rather than make them live in a trailer in the woods.

Do not mention HE (Historic Enterprises) in the same category as myself. The armorers there are artists. The make MUCH nicer armor than I have the skill to make. I was looking at their spring steel legs this summer with awe (as far as I know, they do not work in stainless). They were charging $1595 for the pair of legs and had I the disposable income, I would have bought a pair. I think they were worth every cent.

Although I respect your opinion, Mr Rainey; you are comparing apples and oranges. Our armor is the best bang for the buck in the middle range armor category. That is why we do so well. Is it perfect in all manners? No, it is not. I do not spend the same amout of time that HE does making a set of legs, but I do not charge as much. I DO however, take the time to make sure that every piece of armor that I send out looks and functions properly. Sometimes I miss something and happily take it back to correct any function problems that I missed. I have also made adjustments for fit for those who might have gained or lost weight, for no charge.

I did not compare your product with HE other than to state that a customer had purchased HE armour after selling yours for only a small amount more. I also stated that I may be incorrect on this. The customer, who frequents this board, would have to step forward to verify those facts. I had prepared to put up a few items of yours that DO approach HE prices.. however I wanted to keep my post to what was asked… my opinion which I wanted to base on fact.

The fact that it is the best bang for the buck has yet to be seen. I have searched a few sites websites and found comparable stainless armour to yours for a much lower price. I happen to know a couple of these armourers and their quality control is also better.

I also know that their quality control would be much better than has been seen out of your shop by numerous skilled armourers.

You also leave out the fact that your personal reputation/rank as a fighter and royalty in the SCA assists in the sales. Do you think that your reputation as a fighter/peer in the SCA helps your business? This is not a bad thing.. I was just wondering. It could be seen that your name within the SCA is free advertising and assures sales.

The additional services you provide are admirable. You do go above and beyond for your customers. However, other also perform similar services, albeit not to the extent of changing armour because of increased/decreased weight, as this is good customer service practice.

I am not going to talk with any negativity of my fellow armorers. I have not jumped in on conversations that bash my brothers for their service or quality when they came up. Everyone fit a niche. You pay for what you get in this line of business. If you do not deliver with price, quality or service, you will die. Many companies have come and gone and we have thrived. I believe we deliver on all acounts. If I felt otherwise, I would make changes.

Agreed. That is why armourers such as GAA, Red Falcon, Bokalo, etc are still in business, I would assume.

I have offered a less expensive line of armor that came with a brush polish, and no strapping for far less money and still sold more of the polished and strapped armor.

Unfortunately, the customer does not always know armour from shiny steel. It is up to the vendor to educate them, in my opinion. Not sell them something that may/may not be the best purchase for them. Not knocking you as I have seen this with other vendors.

I have seen this with my own eyes numerous times. The customer is drawn like a ferret to a shiny object. They often do not understand what armour is or how it should function, but they are happy with their purchase because it is shiny. Flaws in the fit/function/quality are overlooked and not known until after the purchase when the armour is taken to someone else to improve the fit/function. I have performed this role on IF and other branded armour and I assume others have as well given Alan’s post.

I have pride in my work and I will never take advantage of the people who put bread on my table. Even after making armor for many years, I might not have reached the levels of the top armorers in our field, but I do not display myself as a master armorer; nor do I charge like one.

Then I would implore you to take one suggestion and perform more in-depth quality control. The fit of the lames, removing ripples from dished edges, the placement/setting of rivets, make sure that articulation is smooth and sturdy, etc.

This are not master’s techniques. These are the MOST BASIC production goals that I would expect as a customer from ANY price range of armourer. Walk around to other booths and see what they are doing when you are at the events (I assume you have given the HE reference). Look at the quality and construction. Improve upon them.

By selling and shipping armour that is not assured to be of the highest quality or armour with fundamental flaws (such as noted above) at a price that equates to or is higher than that of your peer SCA armourers who DO ensure QA practice… you ARE taking advantage of people. I am certain that this s not deliberate, though as I hear nothing but good things about you as a person.

If you would treat this as a critique of armour, which is what I meant by it (and I apologize for anything outside of that context) I would be more than happy to offer further critiquing. Hopefully with the goal of improving the quality and construction of what is provided on your website/table.

I also feel that with a little coaching, your armour could take on a more historic feel and therefore improve the reputation and impression of the SCA in general as your are a highly regarded SCA armour merchant.

Please note that historic feel does not necessairly equate into significantly increased work effort, nor should quality control.

[Stonekeep]

It just almost puts me in a state of shock that Andre would be publicly berated in this forum...

I have never heard him say he is a "master armorer", and on several occasions I have heard him refer to a custom armorer as a "master", and that he wished he could achieve that level. As do I...

I think every one of us who has been successful in the armor field has done so because we fill a niche. Andre fills his niche market very well and has been successful now for what 16 years??? I have been successful now for around 10, but only really active with it for 4. One of the first things Andre and I talked about when we met was the fact that I could actually carry some of his armor around to events and on my website because we are nowhere near the same niche market.
I can lay his armor right next to mine on a table... A person looking for his armor is NOT looking for mine, and a person looking for mine does not want his.

You apparently compared him to the armor gods at HE first (If someone can buy HE armor for the same price (or close) then it warrants comparison. If not the statement would not have been made). I already see he responded to that by saying he is not nearly as skillfull as them nor does he proclaim to be. (Nor does he sell for their prices, or close by the way, unless you consider double the price as close).

Now the comparison to GAA armory and the link sent, I did have to go to the site and research... I saw the product.. Personally, it was not as appealing as some of IF's spaulders, so I would not trade mine in for them. However; they did look very well made, as did all of the products listed on his site. It did not take me long however to realize AGAIN we are dealing in a different niche of the market... This is what I found on the site:

"Currently we are very low on stock, but we are working on that. Please check back often."

as well as:

"If it is not in stock, it can not be ordered. Please do not ask for anything that is not listed as in stock. I hate to say no to people, but under current circumstances, I must. Trying to keep stock on the tables and make custom items is putting me into a situation to where I am falling behind at both. I must concentrate on one or the other, and during War season, it must be stock on the table. Following War season (Nov-Jan) we will gladly entertain making specific items for you, but until then, the rule is "In Stock Only"."

Now, I am sorry, but this means that this armory is NOT in the same niche market as Andre. According to the GAA site what he has listed on his website is the ONLY stock he has available. According to that I personnally have more of Andre's armor in my warehouse than GAA has available anywhere. This does not include the large amount of armor that IF armory keeps in its own buildings. Andre has quoted me several times that no matter what you order, no matter what size, no matter WHAT TIME OF YEAR, he will have it shipped within 2-3 weeks. (AND HE DOES, which distinguishes himself from the armories who only claim they do).

Now you show me an armory that has 1) the aesthetic value equal to or better than Andre's 2) in-stock all the time or we get it to you in 3 weeks promise 3) at half the price of his....... Then you will have found someone beating Andre at his own niche, and I will be in line to purchase some new armor....

[Brian W. Rainey]

It just almost puts me in a state of shock that Andre would be publicly berated in this forum...

I have never heard him say he is a "master armorer", and on several occasions I have heard him refer to a custom armorer as a "master", and that he wished he could achieve that level. As do I...

Where do you see anyone publically berating anyone else? Please, point this out to me.

I have gone out of my way to make everything I post verifiable by fact. That is not berating, that is the posting of opinion and review.

I calmly and respectfully replied to Mr. Sinou's post. Prior to that, I calmly offered my opinion which was asked for. I am simply trying to figure out what drives the desire for SCA armour.

I have also never refered to him as a master armourer or referrenced his product to a master armourer. If you are talking "SCA master" then it so happens that the owner of at least one business mentioned is a "master" armourer, that is an entirely different animal in my book, and obviously a difference in opinion here. However, I know that person's products and (other than custom work) there is no mastery or significant skill that would not have been inherently picked up through repetition of process and quality assurance over 16 years. I simply pointed out attention to detail issues. Period.

If anyone is coming unglued, Mr. Stonekeep, it is you. This is not an attack, nor was it designed to be one. I was asked my opinion and provided it complete with supporting eveidence.

This is my opinion. Do you feel it is unjust? Does my post last night somehow have false information? I think not as it was accompanied by pictures. Also, the issues contained in the pictures have not been been addressed by Mr. Sinou nor yourself, since you decided to jump in.

This is the same conversation I would have with him if I met him at an event. Being a nice guy and having good customer service is NOT a replacement for quality product and quality assurance, especially at the prices paid for such. Period. That is from a customer standpoint.

Frankly, I am surprised that my opinion is so important to you.

Everything that I mentioned above is the direct result of being in the middle of a transaction with an unhappy customer. It is my hands-on review of a product. How does that equate into berating someone? Please, tell me.

I offered constructive critism. I could get nasty and berate people and I have not. I also refuse to do so. I will not as I DO have more respect for IF (Mr. Sinou) than to blow up and turn what was otherwise an informative and educational experience into a testosterone induced flame war.

It does not show well on you as a person to automatically see a review of product and deficiencies therein as an attack on an individual. Where would Ford be if they continually denounced their critics and customer feedback over the past century.

My concern comes from being the reference point of dozens of new SCA fighters throughout the year. I would LIKE to have a reference to send a person to who would, as you mentioned, have the stuff in stock. Therefore, I could be a source of revenue. Taking this into account, as an asociate of Mr. Sinou, you are not making a good impression.

[Morgan]

I didn't see anyone personally attack Andre.

I didn't see anyone compare IF to HE. In fact, I saw him say that he wouldn't do that because they aren't comparable.

I also didn't see any refutation of any of the specific, documented points.

But I also don't see where these documented points are proven to be bad." I can see where some might consider some of these points to be bad. But some of these points don't affect the function of the item. Some would, certainly.

I think everything that's been pointed out here illustrates a pretty simple point. Different people have differnet values for the money they spend. Thankfully, we live in a world were we get to choose where to spend that money.

[Wil]

While I don't agree with Stonekeep's indignation, I do agree with his point. Icefalcon's prices don't reflect craftsmanship and authenticity, so much as material, finish, service and stock. It costs money to keep stock, which is why nobody does it- you are tying up materials and labour into something you *hope* someone will buy, rather than something which has already been paid for.

Many people on this board are fighting with assorted sketchy armourers to get armour or sitting on the 12-18 month waiting list of the acknowledged masters. Others may be perfectly willing to pay more than a pair of legs is really worth, just for the security of knowing you'll actually get them, and the convenience of getting them within weeks of ordering.

~Wil

[Brian W. Rainey]

While I don't agree with Stonekeep's indignation, I do agree with his point. Icefalcon's prices don't reflect craftsmanship and authenticity, so much as material, finish, service and stock. It costs money to keep stock, which is why nobody does it- you are tying up materials and labour into something you *hope* someone will buy, rather than something which has already been paid for.

Many people on this board are fighting with assorted sketchy armourers to get armour or sitting on the 12-18 month waiting list of the acknowledged masters. Others may be perfectly willing to pay more than a pair of legs is really worth, just for the security of knowing you'll actually get them, and the convenience of getting them within weeks of ordering.

~Wil

That is what I was partially getting at.

DO people see material/service/stock/finish a good replacement for quality/construction.

If so, how much MORE would armour be in demand if it did not lack quality and construction?

And, before I am attacked.. this is a general statement and NOT directed towards IF/Stonekeep.

One of the reasons that GAA is continually out of stock is that he CANNOT keep up with demand! His stuff literally flies off the table before events open. He has had numerous workers working for him and STILL cannot keep up with demand. The fact that IF has armour warehoused means nothing other than the fact that he has amrour warehoused.

How many units of X were sold by each merchant during a specified period of time would be needed in order to make your claim of stored armour worth anything. If GAA has sold 400 pair of spaulders this year and IF has MADE 400 and sold 350, then they are in the same market. They both work in stainless and cater directly to the SCA = same market. Only difference is that IF is able to keep up with demand where GAA is not. Does this, in your mind, make one vendor better than the other? Is off the shelf more important to you than quality/construction? This is not a bad thing, but it is your opinion on what makes a better vendor. I would personally wait for a better quality car to arrive at a dealership than to go down the street and purchase a car that is lacking in quality control at a premium price, would you? Why not apply the same to armour purchases.

Why not incoporate better quality control in IF/your (since you represent him) products and beat the snot out of the competition. Make more money and let everyone else eat your fiscal dust.

(Let it be known that I have no current association with GAA Armouries, however I am familiar with their work, as I am IFs.)

This is because his product has quality/finish/materials/service/construction/design... all built in and for a much lower cost. He has had people working for him in order to boost production and STILL cannot keep his product on the table. These are basic pieces such as spaulders.. not master works, therefore I do not buy the master armourer argument that was presented. I am not a master armourer in the SCA's eyes (or my own). However, I would NEVER let spaulders go out of my shop that look like the ones above. They are not lacking in Master sauce.. they are lacking in quality, period.

Also, I have NEVER seen anyone step in and DEFEND(?) GAA when his work is critiqued (berated?). He takes constructive crisism as what it is... a tool that should be used for improvement of the product when appropriate.

Again, I apologize for pissing people off. My intentions were not meant to be read as vicious.

[Lucian Ro]

I was always under the impression that you were paying for expediency when dealing with Andre.
He's never claimed to be making historically accurate armor and actually the quote on the main page of his website says something along the lines of, "If you want good looking armor that protects and you don't want to have to wait 6 months for it ... "
I've purchased armor from him, and yes speed rivets were used, but it was still perfectly functional and delivered within 4 days.
4 days.
Let me reiterate again; 4 days.
I'll happily pay $75-100 more to insure that I have the functional item in hand as opposed to dealing with some of these so-called 'master armourers' online.

And as for the taking advantage statement, I find that simply ludicrous.

[Brian W. Rainey]

I was always under the impression that you were paying for expediency when dealing with Andre.
He's never claimed to be making historically accurate armor and actually the quote on the main page of his website says something along the lines of, "If you want good looking armor that protects and you don't want to have to wait 6 months for it ... "
I've purchased armor from him, and yes speed rivets were used, but it was still perfectly functional and delivered within 4 days.
4 days.
Let me reiterate again; 4 days.
I'll happily pay $75-100 more to insure that I have the functional item in hand as opposed to dealing with some of these so-called 'master armourers' online.

And as for the taking advantage statement, I find that simply ludicrous.

A satisfied customer. This is a good thing. You felt that the product was delivered as expected and are happy with the construction/functionality.

BTW: Who are you referencing as a "so-called master armourer"? I would like to refer those who come to me for SCA armour (on a weekly basis) on the quick to only trustworthy dealers.

It depends on the point of view. The customer I worked with fet that the product was not what he paid a significant amount for and was therefore taken advantage of. Thus it is a suitable remark.

[Richard de Scolay]

Hi guys, I'm the "customer" that Brian has been refering to.

Let me say that while I was definately dissappointed by the quality of the armor, I did receive reasonably good service. And though it was not in stock when I placed the order, it did come reasonably quickly. At the time, returning it to correct quality control issues or for a refund wasn't possible due to the fact that Andreas had been called to active dute with the Marines, I definately understood his position and had nothing to complain about. I should say that he offered a refund but I'd have had to wait until he returned from active duty.

Now, regarding the price. I did pay about twice as much for the Historic Enterprise arms and legs as I had paid for the Icefalcon armor, but I bought spring steel. If I had bought mild, it would only have been 50% more. So when comparing the two armorers that should be a factor.

Personally, my assessment of the quality and presentation differences between them two sets of armor, even considering the price, made the Historic Enterprise armor a significantly better deal. Now I had the money at the time and some people don't, but they also often don't realize how much less they are getting by buying from Icefalcon. I know I didn't and felt misled by the photos and prices into thinking I was going to be getting more than I did. Most armorers who sell munitions grade armor say so on their website. I realize the shine that is given to the Icefalcon armor pushes that aspect beyond munitions grade, but everything else about it is still munitions grade.

"You can't please everyone" and I'm just one of those that wasn't pleased.

[mrks]

Mr Brian W. Rainey

I wasnt going to post this but.... please dont think I am slamming you

in my opinion your kind efforts to help andre improve techniques and his wares made you look like a troll... why not write him privately and offer to help?

after reading the thread it is now clear to me you have no idea what it is like "to attempt to be" a production armourer. as someone who bought thousands of dollars worth of machines to attempt this... let me say it is hard work and sucks.

most people who attempt to do this by hand... last around three years before thier body is shot... armouring at full tilt... as a production armourer meeting demand and keeping stock on hand. many have came here and made great stuff for cheap prices. they end up leaving customers twisting inthe wind and have to quit due to physical problems from hand work.

in my opinion... hand made custom armour from the guys here is way to cheap money wise. especially those attempting to make a living doing something they love.

armouring for the public.... the pay is poor, the customers are finicky and sometimes wont pay for an order(I take no money down to start a piece). I am now a hobby armourer and those not patient enough to wait for my work buy from those who can make it fast enough. heck I turn guys away fairly often. its all about the time it takes to make a piece.

I usually wont even sell to a newb. even local guys sent to me by my knight friends are convinced otherwise...depending on their needs I send them else where. I also wont sell to collectors most customers write me something like this:

Lastly I am willing to commit to you that if you do sell me xxx I can promise that it will not end up sitting on a shelf collecting dust, if for
any reason I should decide to discontinue my SCA fighting I will give it to
someone Like Duke xxx I would not mind giving it to him because he has
been very helpful and generous with his time to me thus far in my SCA
experience.

the reason I include this is for you to realize how difficult it is to get one of the high demand armourers to work for you. my prices are very reasonable for what I make but they have to wait or be worthy. ya I am a snob with my talents.

so few can produce what you are asking for at a fast pace. few can do it successfully as a business. can his quality be better yes but then so can others who make for the sca. but they cant make a living at it. when you want something now the first person I recommend is andre. he is spot on quick. you might pay for it in various ways but he produces.

technique wise.... its all about preference and what you are trying to do in the sca. most fighter want performance. most on this board including you wany something else. the general public needs starter armour. they need it now and they need lots of it.


so you can deal with some guy who wont even consider you for a customer.... a business who charges you a ton makes and makes you wait for something "historic". but think a moment... imagine you are a new wantobe fighter who wants armour and you want it now and are willing to pay for it.

I use some of the techniques andre does. so do many others. to use historical articulations techniques adds much time and effort resulting in a higher cost of production. in my paticular case its really hard to use.

articulation sliding slightly up and down a rivet is not such a bad thing. in fact many customers prefer it. the like the look of the knee and dont really like the hidden lames or “bulbulousâ€Â

[Stonekeep]

Well actually I am kind of surprised that all my attempts to get an apples to apples comparison to price and quality (that I saw Andre himself seem to ask for in the post) was read as indignation. I almost took out the simple first line of the multi-paragraph statement. As well it seems I should have. That was written in semi-shock, the rest was written in rebuttal.
I am also surprised that people would feel I wrote the post in anger....
I have no reason to be angry. I have recieved no personal attacks upon myself or any of my companies, nor have I seen any personal attacks on Andre. I did see a very poor review of his work, and I have offerred a rebuttal (seemingly allowed in this forum) that it fills a specific niche which can only be compared to products filling that same specific niche. and any comparisons to products not inside that niche is not really a comparison.

I would ask that the reference to myself being an "associate" of IF be changed, as I don't personally recieve the monies for the sales of his products. My apprentice does, and he could accurately be called an "associate" in the reference it was made. Now if you would like to refer to me as a friend of Andre, I will gladly accept the title, and am very honored to do so, but I still do not speak for him, and any loss of sales he might incur from me posting on this forum would be rather unfortunate.

How my post was taken as indignation or anger I am unclear... I have re-read it several times now and don't see it; however, I know the author personally... so this may be the difference..

What I was trying to get across in my post (after my initial one-line sentence) was armor is a niche business. I know of noone making the same aethetically pleasing armor, at the same price, and keeping it on the shelf. If we can produce a company doing so, then let's post their link so we can research it further like I did with the one provided.

The initial statements about the armor and the pics provided hold the armor to a higher standard than the armor was produced to be. I make only mild steel armor for the new sca fighter either unwilling or not able to buy the more expensive stainless steel armor. We could post pics of my armor showing how I dont use the best materials available (ie: stainless or titanium), and how dare I not... My rebuttal would be I did not produce it for that niche of the market.

You posted a horrible review of his products comparing it to beginner armorer's skills, you stated you are "almost sorry for his customers". I have rebutted with my thoughts concerning niche marketing.
I am sure Andre could produce a product that even you would agree is "almost perfect" in construction, and that might actually be worthwhile if he was competing with HE and afforded their prices, but since he is not, I am sure it is not worth the labor costs.

A review of the armor is great, and yes even a bad review... but don't expect Andre to continue to post defending himself or his business practices when he has been successful for 16 years running. With the quantity of orders he recieves, that to me is proof positive that his business practices are sound, and he needs to concern himself with getting armor into boxes and shipped off.

And with the amount of armor I ship off on a daily basis, this exercise was probably silly for me to engage in. So I had better stay away from typing about armor and get to making armor myself...

[Brian W. Rainey]

Mr Brian W. Rainey

I wasnt going to post this but.... please dont think I am slamming you

in my opinion your kind efforts to help andre improve techniques and his wares made you look like a troll... why not write him privately and offer to help?

I apologized for any misinterpreted intent. I am truly trying to find information in order to pass on customers to reputable armourers who are currently doing production armouring. As I am not anymore.

I reread my original post and should have stated my intent more clearly. However, I am not a troll.

I STILL have yet to see the VALID points I raised regarding quality control addressed. I am simply attacked by IF’s friends. I truly do not understand this.

I am curious as to whether the quality control that I have seen has been improved upon and if others have experienced similar issues.

after reading the thread it is now clear to me you have no idea what it is like "to attempt to be" a production armourer. as someone who boughs thousands of dollars worth of machines to attempt this let me say it is hard work and sucks.

most people who attempt to do this by hand... last around three years before thier body is shot... armouring at full tilt... as a production armourer meeting demand and keeping stock on hand. many have came here and made great stuff for cheap prices. they end up leaving customers twisting inthe wind and have to quit due to physical problems from hand work.

in my opinion... hand made custom armour from the guys here is way to cheap money wise. especially those attempting to make a living doing something they love. rmouring for the public.... the pay is poor, the customers are finicky and sometimes wont pay for an order(I take no money down to start a piece). I am now a hobby armourer and those not patient enough to wait for my work buy from those who can make it fast enough. heck I turn guys away fairly often. its all about the time it takes to make a piece.

Do a little research into who I am/was (from an SCA context) and I honestly think you will alter your opinion. Also, look on the field for stainless armour with a PQ stamped in it. There is a fair amount in the Midwest and South East.

As someone who has walked away from three major SCA wars recently with huge sales numbers from three major SCA wars and excellent regional sales, I beg to differ.

I have not produced armour in over a year now due to full time college efforts, a full time job, a family to support and I am focusing on research and authenticity rather than cookie cutter SCA armouring. Simply a change in focus for me. I am striving for a more authentic aproach, personally.

I know the ins and outs of armouring for a living as well or better than 95% of the people on this board, if not more.

I address quality/price and I am attacked. I personally produced spaulders with the same material that IF uses. I used a pattern that requires as much work, produced much better quality and construction, BY HAND, and sold them for $75.00. I am no longer in the business of making armour for people, so I am looking for suitable references.

If you want a reference to the quality of my work there are a few on this board who have purchased from me or seen my shop/output.

I usually wont even sell to a newb. even local guys sent to me by my knight friends are convinced otherwise...depending on their needs I send them else where. I also wont sell to collectors most customers write me something like this:
Quote:
Lastly I am willing to commit to you that if you do sell me xxx I can promise that it will not end up sitting on a shelf collecting dust, if for any reason I should decide to discontinue my SCA fighting I will give it to someone Like Duke xxx I would not mind giving it to him because he has been very helpful and generous with his time to me thus far in my SCA experience.
the reason I include this is for you to realize how difficult it is to get one of the high demand armourers to work for you. my prices are very reasonable for what I make but they have to wait or be worthy. ya I am a snob with my talents.

The references that I have posted are for production armourers that DO work for their customers. I have not listed any with a reputation for NOT working for their customers. I have referenced the prices for these people. I feel that my post is relevant.

so few can produce what you are asking for at a fast pace. few can do it successfully as a business. can his quality be better yes but then so can others who make for the sca. but they cant make a living at it. when you want something now the first person I recommend is andre. he is spot on quick. you might pay for it in various ways but he produces.

I am not asking for speed, I am referring to quality control of BASIC armour functions (please refer to the pictures). I agree there is a give and take... but the issues I pointed out are NOT time consuming. To say so is simply being lazy in your efforts, especially in the event of the spaulders. This coming from someone who has made an exhausting amount of spaulders in stainless.

technique wise.... its all about preference and what you are trying to do in the sca. most fighter want performance. most on this board including you wany something else. the general public needs starter armour. they need it now and they need lots of it.

so you can deal with some guy who wont even consider you for a customer.... a business who charges you a ton makes and makes you wait for something "historic". but think a moment... imagine you are a new wantobe fighter who wants armour and you want it now and are willing to pay for it.

This is a good thing. Get as many people interested/fighting as possible. We share a similar goal.

[quote]I use some of the techniques andre does. so do many others. to use historical articulations techniques adds much time and effort resulting in a higher cost of production. in my paticular case its really hard to use.

articulation sliding slightly up and down a rivet is not such a bad thing. in fact many customers prefer it. the like the look of the knee and dont really like the hidden lames or “bulbulousâ€Â