Greaves

[Glaukos the Athenian]

Gretings all,

Just some toughts about greaves.

I have been shopping (sadly mostly window shopping until I have more cash) for armor, and in my case this usually involves quite a bit of research. Greaves have not escaped my attention, even though many consider them superfluous.

I noticed that the lines of many greaves (admittedly a HARD to make piece) look more like they were cut from house gutters than meant to fit a human leg.

Yesterday, at the Holiday Faire at the nearby Barony of Stierbach (Atlantia) I saw the display of an amateur armorer from the Barony of Bright Hills. This was a 14th century set of armor, with brass trim reminiscent ot Churburg armor. The suit was a great piece, but I cold not take my eyes from the greaves.

Then I realized why. Those greaves looked like they would fit, and they would be comfortable, and protective. As was was holding them I realized what the shape was: They looked JUST like the uppers of well-crafted leather riding boots.
Here are the lines:
(alt+p)

I am obviously not talking about the boot aspects, but the fit to the calf.

The calf is anatomically one of the hardest parts of the body to armor, because it literally changes both shape and dimensions as it moves, more so than the Biceps. Therefore, a good initial fit is crucial for comfort.



[img]http://www.saddleuponline.co.uk/acatalog/brogini%20-%202010%20-%20big.jpg[/img] (alt+p)

Just a point to make.

If a poll can be made fomr people that wear them, who makes the most comfortable full greaves?
Why are those the most comfortable?


(Addendum)

A great picture of full steel greaves, from the 1522 Siege of Rhodes by Suleiman the Magnificent against the Hospitallers, now called the Knights of St. John.

(alt+p)

Notice also that the Cuisses also cover the whole tigh and not just the front....

Thanks!!

Rowan

[T. Finkas]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076759/quotes

Obi-Wan:
I have something here for you. Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damn fool idealistic crusade like your father did. It's your father's lightsaber. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or as random as a blaster, but an elegant weapon for a more civilized age. For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times, before the Empire.

Fix your sig!

[Glaukos the Athenian]

Thanks !

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076759/quotes

Obi-Wan:
I have something here for you. Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damn fool idealistic crusade like your father did. It's your father's lightsaber. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or as random as a blaster, but an elegant weapon for a more civilized age. For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times, before the Empire.

Fix your sig!

[Gerhard von Liebau]

I just finished these, and they have a similar shape to those boots, with the exception that they don't go all the way 'round.





I was tryin' really hard to get what seemed like suitable proportions on them, and I think they turned out well enough. As you said, a lot of research is required.

-Gregory-

[Torvaldr]

All my hardened leather greaves are dished around the calf area to fit to the curves you mention. Here are some pictures of shovel knee greaves. You can see the shaping around the calf. My shovel knee greaves are $110.00 and just plain greaves are $80.00

Torvaldr


[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/torvaldr/greaves1.jpg[/img]

[Mad Matt]

Here's a pair I made.

[audax]

The key to comfort is proper fit to your specific (and hopefully unchanging) measurements. Any decent armorer should be able to do that for you. Just remember cased greaves ain't cheap.

audax

[Glaukos the Athenian]

Audax,

Agreed, one does not get THAT much fatter in the calves, yet, they DO move as Galileo would argue. Perhaps the most dramatic change in muscle shape (upon contraction) in the Human body (except for middle-aged men sucking up gut in the beach when a couple of pretty 20 year old girls walk by, but I disgress....)

I also agree they will not be all that cheap, but not necessarily absurdly expensive. As for any decent armorer being able to make them; I have noticed that well shaped greaves are usually absent from the menu (perhaps because you ARE right and they are so expensive to make) but maybe there simply isn't enough demand....

Thanks!!

Rowan

The key to comfort is proper fit to your specific (and hopefully unchanging) measurements. Any decent armorer should be able to do that for you. Just remember cased greaves ain't cheap.

audax

[Kilkenny]

The cased greave represents multiple challenges to the armourer, and as a number of threads here on the archive attest, it's not just "any decent armourer" who can produce a good set - unless we're going to use making cased greaves as a qualifying test for being a "decent armourer".

The fact that the calf bulges isn't really that big an issue in the process - it's not as though one is trying to make the armour expand and contract with the muscle. It just has to be large enough to accommodate the muscle at its maximum dimensions.

What's hard, I think, is getting the combination of curves involved. The side profile is fairly obvious and relatively "easy". But look at the lines of a period set of cased greaves from the front. The curves there are every bit as critical to the fit, and very much more subtle. And then look at the top of the greave - it's not a straight across horizontal line, and it isn't the same line across the front and the back.

I've been giving some thought to these as a project, and I really don't yet understand why there's such a dramatic difference between the front and back line across the top. I'm sure when it either dawns on me, or someone explains it to me, I'll wonder how I could possibly have missed it, but for now....

Gavin

[Glaukos the Athenian]

Gavin

You are correct as well. That is why I tried to use the riding boot as an example of a fitted item meant to protect the lower leg and calf.

In fact I have seen (and cannot find an image) of turn of the century (19th to 20th) riding leggings worn by General Patton in WWI that seemed .


Ok here:

http://www.liongate-armsandarmour.com/bq1045.htm

or here
http://collectrussia.com/DISPITEM.HTM?ITEM=4525

or:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-Soldiers-Le ... dZViewItem

Just a thought.

Rowan


I wonder if one can use these leather ones as a pattern for steel...

The cased greave represents multiple challenges to the armourer, and as a number of threads here on the archive attest, it's not just "any decent armourer" who can produce a good set - unless we're going to use making cased greaves as a qualifying test for being a "decent armourer".

The fact that the calf bulges isn't really that big an issue in the process - it's not as though one is trying to make the armour expand and contract with the muscle. It just has to be large enough to accommodate the muscle at its maximum dimensions.

What's hard, I think, is getting the combination of curves involved. The side profile is fairly obvious and relatively "easy". But look at the lines of a period set of cased greaves from the front. The curves there are every bit as critical to the fit, and very much more subtle. And then look at the top of the greave - it's not a straight across horizontal line, and it isn't the same line across the front and the back.

I've been giving some thought to these as a project, and I really don't yet understand why there's such a dramatic difference between the front and back line across the top. I'm sure when it either dawns on me, or someone explains it to me, I'll wonder how I could possibly have missed it, but for now....

Gavin

[Henry of Bexley]

Not really.

Leather and steel tend to move very differently and are formed in different ways. To get the correct shape on greaves, raising and compressing have to be done, making the way the metal is moved a lot more important than the pattern. From my admittedly limited experience, leather moves much differently and with different techniques. Honestly the hardest part, for me, has been trying to get the subtle curve to the front of the greave. I still haven't got it- I plan on experimenting with heat in the future though, so maybe...

[Murdock]

Cet makes great front greaves.

[audax]

My fever having finally gone away, I must amend my somewhat muddled comments on this thread. When I said unchanging, I meant more about any large changes in girth over time. As in, are you a bodybuilder whose calves might gain an inch over the course of a year? Then you might want to wait on getting a pair of cased greaves. Once plate armor is fitted to your body, it's nearly impossible to change the sizing. especially pieces like fully cased greaves.

Since the lower leg is is not a legal target in SCA combat, alot of people don't wear greaves, even when appropriate for the time period. PLus properly shaped greaves are challenging to make so if the armorer lacks that skill he won't offer them for sale. In addition knee fighitng is difficult in cased greaves, so many folks just wear frontals (assuming they wear greaves at all).

I think I meant any decent armorer could make frontal greaves. but who knows, between the Nyquil and the 101 fever I've had for 4 days. Cased greaves are another matter entirely. I've made a couple of pairs of hardened leather shynbaulds that have the right shape around the sides of the calves. It's the line down the front and producing the cuff around the ankle that gives me fits.

audax

[Stonekeep]

I just kind of ran through skim reading because I have company in, but one thing Ive noticed (on most production steel greaves), and on the production steel greaves I first produced to replicate what i was seeing, there was basically no difference in a left and right greave.

Most people's inside calf muscle is almost a straight line down to there ankle, while the outside calf muscle protrudes out until it gets down to the ankle.

Since realizing that, I now make left and right steel greaves and mark them as such, to better fit the outside calf muscle. If you had been able to show a head-on view of those riding boots you would be able to see they are made the same way.