The Armour Archive

I am considering purchasing something more than a wallhanger, functional without being a one-of-a-kind work of art.

So...Bowing to the accumulated knowledge of the Archive, where would you shop if you were to do it all over again?

Albion
Angus Trim
Christian Fletcher
Michael Tinker Pearce

Fulke wrote:I am considering purchasing something more than a wallhanger, functional without being a one-of-a-kind work of art.

So...Bowing to the accumulated knowledge of the Archive, where would you shop if you were to do it all over again?

Robert P. Norwalt on the archive has made some AMAZING pieces.

Fulvio Del Tin makes a decent sword at a decent price. I own two Del Tin's, one 11 years old, and one brand new - they are amongst the best bang for the buck, given all considerations - especially if you intend to use them in reenactment combat.

There are closer copies of original swords out there, but they begin at double the price, and the principle difference is a slight one in weight, due to the 1mm edge on the Del Tin, and the level of finish to the grip.

So you don't think I am talking out of my ass, I have handled over a half dozen original Medieval swords (and many more originals of more recent manufacture, 17th-19th century), ranging in date and type from an 11th century broadsword, to a late 14th century bastard sword, to a late 15th century hunting sword, and a mid 15th century arming sword. I own a hand forged arming sword of excellent quality as well, which , again, would cost triple the price of a Del Tin, with the only real difference being manufacturing process and some small detail, and a slight additional weight (like, less than a half pound, again, due to the blades thickness at and near the edge).

Albion or DelTin....Don't know enough about the others that are out there, but I have been around and handle both these companies stuff on numerous occasions....

Everyone has allready suggested the makers I'd go with. Only wanted to add that if you watch the classifieds on www.swordforum.com you might be able to pick a better deal on one of those same blades second hand.

Brian

another good place to look for used

http://www.myarmoury.com

I'm really pleased with Arms & Armour along with Albion.

3rd place would go to Del Tin

I don't care for swords with a threaded tang so I'm not a fan of Angus Trim... if he made em peened then the story would change

(We are taking "battle ready sharps" here, right?)

I'd agree with everyone else, and say either Albion or Arms and Armour.

Albion hands down makes the best, most accurate production swords out there. Nothing compares to them at the price range.

If you watch the MyArmoury classifieds forums here, you can usually get an Albion for a bit of a discount, when people turn over their collections, if you wait.

Or buy direct, though there's a bit of a wait period for them new.

If my house were on fire I'd be standing in the yard with my wife, my dogs and the Albion sword my wife gave me at my vigil.

-Justus

Sharp and with only the makes finger prints on it comes a time in a mans life when sometimes you never know when you have to get medieval on someones ass


Olaf

My custom arms & armour sword has had the crap beaten out of it for almost two decades and is only now starting to show the wear and tear.

I basically agree with Chef's comments.

It does matter to a large degree, on what sort of use it will be subjected to. Swords that are closer to being 'real' swords can often disappoint if you intend to subject them to Renn Fair abuse and Renn Fair abuse oriented swords fall short during cutting tests and often have extra weight that 'real' swords don't as well as odd balance and grips/hilts.

Being in Minnesota, A&A would be a great choice - both for quality and the added benefit of being close enough to the shop to help with care and feeding. . .

. . . and most importantly maybe a chance to stop by the shop, meet some great folks, and put as many different swords in your hand as you can.

I'll agree with Chef to a point - at the prices he is asking, Fulvio Del Tin makes a fine product. (Completely aside, some day I would love to see someone sneak him out of his home country for a couple of days and into another well-equipped shop just to see what decades of practical knowledge and research could produce if the gloves were off!) Where I'm going to part ways with Chef is that the "small detail" he describes - including mass distribution, edge geometry, etc. - are exactly what separate an "okay" recreation (in today's sword market) from what I would consider "good" or "great". A "half a pound" may not sound like much, but in my experience, even an ounce or two - depending on where exactly it is placed - can make a world of difference. . . and I'm not just talking about different grades in "quality" of a particular example of sword; this goes just as much (if not more) for different - but still accurately designed and constructed - types and styles of sword. It is these little details, which only really come to light with a sword in hand, that can tell you whether a sword is "right" for you, or your tastes and styles may lie elsewhere.

Stepping off my little soapbox now, the best advice I can give is save a little extra money and take whatever chance you can to get as many different pieces in hand as possible, and you'll be well rewarded for your patience and enthusiasm to learn. . . and don't forget to stash a few quid for a quality scabbard - you'll be glad you did.

I love my A&A Henry V that cost $500. I also love my cheap "Sword of Dracula" replica Type XVII that is featured at the Met, that I got for $40 and consider a steal and wish I could have bought three of. There are a good variety of swords out there.

The main issues are issues of style:

Does the sword adhere to medieval design models or fantasy stylings?

And construction:

Is the blade secured to the hilt by a tang that is not welded on, does not involve threads, and is peened securely through a pommel?

The one thing that I would have done differently, is that I would not have gone with the "razor sharp" edge on the Arms and Armor Henry V. It was amply demonstrated to me that even a 1mm edge is amply sharp enough to do grievous bodily harm if used in earnest, and you don't have nearly the safety issues and fragility.

John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Kirby. Only Kirby. Nothing else but Kirby.



http://www.kirbywise.com/

chef de chambre wrote:Fulvio Del Tin makes a decent sword at a decent price. I own two Del Tin's, one 11 years old, and one brand new - they are amongst the best bang for the buck, given all considerations - especially if you intend to use them in reenactment combat.

There are closer copies of original swords out there, but they begin at double the price, and the principle difference is a slight one in weight, due to the 1mm edge on the Del Tin, and the level of finish to the grip.

So you don't think I am talking out of my ass, I have handled over a half dozen original Medieval swords (and many more originals of more recent manufacture, 17th-19th century), ranging in date and type from an 11th century broadsword, to a late 14th century bastard sword, to a late 15th century hunting sword, and a mid 15th century arming sword. I own a hand forged arming sword of excellent quality as well, which , again, would cost triple the price of a Del Tin, with the only real difference being manufacturing process and some small detail, and a slight additional weight (like, less than a half pound, again, due to the blades thickness at and near the edge).

I have known the man who does some of the investment cast and waxes for Del Tin's hilt, he is one of the finest brescian engravers (he did also the extra pricey Columbus anniversary sword and some of the best and pricey engravings on brescian hunting rifles).

On the other hand the quality of the blade steel is rumored to be at its lowest with respect to past Del Tins, who were said to be good Krupp steel.

I have handled his Saint Maurice sword and it is quite sweet and balanced, even if a bit on the blade heavy side with respect to an albion of similar blade type I have, the knight.

I would go for an albion, squire line, if I were in the US.

Being here I would also buy a Del Tin of a particular model I like but I would just go directly at the shop.

Albion's blade steel is excellent, my friend bought a squire an we crossed our blade on edges (my knight is unsharpened due to restrictive italian laws), no nicks.

David Teague wrote:I'm really pleased with Arms & Armour along with Albion.

3rd place would go to Del Tin

I don't care for swords with a threaded tang so I'm not a fan of Angus Trim... if he made em peened then the story would change

(We are taking "battle ready sharps" here, right?)

I think that for reenactment blunt a threaded tang would be better in order to allow easy maintenance.

Today we have not much spare time and a threaded tang can be made as a sturdy as necessary thanks to the modern steels we have.

I would reserve authentically built tangs to serious collectors and water jug cutters, or for the finest and experienced fencers.

What do people think of Lutel?

-D

brunoG wrote:

David Teague wrote:I'm really pleased with Arms & Armour along with Albion.

3rd place would go to Del Tin

I don't care for swords with a threaded tang so I'm not a fan of Angus Trim... if he made em peened then the story would change

(We are taking "battle ready sharps" here, right?)

I think that for reenactment blunt a threaded tang would be better in order to allow easy maintenance.

Today we have not much spare time and a threaded tang can be made as a sturdy as necessary thanks to the modern steels we have.

I would reserve authentically built tangs to serious collectors and water jug cutters, or for the finest and experienced fencers.

Sorry, I disagree. I have some very nice custom fencing blunted backswords that have a stout threaded tang and they rattle apart when struck sword on sword (which is rather anoying in the middle of a backsword bout), I have some very nice peened blunted longswords that are going on a few years of sword on sword contact with out needing to be repeened... which isn't that hard to do. I am taking as a WMA instructor/student here and not as a reenactor.

Cheers,

DT

Paul Binns in the UK

http://www.paul-binns-swords.co.uk/About%20Us.htm

http://www.paul-binns-swords.co.uk/Tech ... mation.htm

His swords are simply AWESOME, they DON'T look serial made or machine made, they are strong and beautiful.

One of his words, which I received a while ago, will come with me in my last boat ride....


Rowan

As a maker that has been mentioned here, it may be a bit inappropriate for me to post here... but I will go further than just to pimp our stuff and hopefully be of some help. I do what I do now because I love this stuff - started out as a collector long before I joined up here. It is important to me that a collector be happy with their collection, even if it isn't one of our pieces.

Fulke, the main questions you want to ask yourself are these -

1) what do you want this for? Cutting, reenactment, display, sparring/training, zombie eradication...
2) how historically accurate do you want to be?
3) what period or type of piece are you looking for?
4) what budget are you considering?


Obviously, if you're looking for an historically accurate piece from the Romans through the 15th or very early 16th and the funds are available, I'd suggest us here at Albion. Everything in our current lineup was designed and spec'd out by Peter based off of hands-on documentation of hundreds of original pieces... If you're looking for rapiers, daggers, or polearms, A&A is the best domestic option. Craig and his crew are good people. Del Tin has less accuracy but also not as pricey, and they don't come sharp from the factory, though they can be sharpened. There are some other options that have also been mentioned... and more that haven't. If, for example, you want a Scottish basket-hilt, I'd refer you to Armour Class (may be misspelled...) - none of us make them here, at least, not in a production environment. If zombie defense is your goal, I'll send you to John Gage, as he has some good stuff going on with ZEDU (no, I'm not kidding).

At any rate, if you can answer those questions (at least to yourself, if you don't want to post the answers here), you can narrow things down a bit.

DietrichUhl wrote:What do people think of Lutel?

-D

No idea myself, though there are some reviews here:

http://www.myarmoury.com/reviews.html

Albion

i have 2


they're very nice

As His Majesty has said,

Duke Phelan wrote:Kirby. Only Kirby. Nothing else but Kirby.



http://www.kirbywise.com/

My first sword is a Kirby, my last sword is a Kirby, as is the bearded axe, the spear, the dirk that I've had since 1975, and the Great Helm that is literally bulletproof.

Mathghamhain

In a more oriental vein:

Ric Furrer if I need something that's made from iron-bhearing sand on up (or wootz), or Howard Clark for someting to use if/when the zombies come.

Ric made my 12th century Bizen style tachi blade for my knighting. Although the cardboard outline looked very wimpy, the blade made to that profile will damn sure cut a man.

Howard's blades are darn near unbreakable.

There's other guys out there, but with those 2 I know what I'm getting.

Both Ric and Howard are both craftsmen of the highest calibre. Ric I have yet to have the pleasure of meeting, but Howard's a cool guy to boot.

What Chef said.

These guys have a crapload of Del-Tins.

http://www.arts-swords.com/default.asp

It all depends on intended use. Do you want a cutter? Do you want an absolutely auithentic blade? Do you intend to *use* it in reenactment?

One sword will not be the best at all three things - it cannot be (for instance, a sharp can never be a reenactment combat blade - ever).

The point made above about balance is very overstated. It is true of a Starfire, or a standard "reenactment blunt" with a 2-3mm edge, or a Phillipino or Indian Klunker, but it is absolutely *not* true regarding the balance of Del Tins.

Bruno, my 11 year old example is Krupp steel, and still going strong, after a lot of hard use. The recent purchase is not for sparring, but for a visual example at the museum in a future presentatiuon, and for cutting on horseback. To bring my Del Tin up to the detail of an Albion cost about as much as a new Albion - it wasn't cost-effective, but it is my favorite carry blade, and it is now unique.

Frankly, in my reasonably educated opinion, the entire sword reproduction/collection thing is overdone - most of the swords reproduced very well, treasured and coveted by collecters, are *NOT* typical swords of the era they represent - they are reproductions of the best specimens surviving, used by wealthy men, knights, Lords, and Kings - and pretty much MOST (not all) collectors are drawn to what would have been the top 5-10% of swords regarding quality, manufactured in Europe at any given time. Offhand, I can only think of a *handful* of typical carry blades that are manufactured today, for the collectors market, that a soldier would have carried (and even most knights and men at arms).

Off of that soapbox, that is a burr under my saddle, brought on to a large degree by some reenactors in my immediate circle, who are drawn like bugs to flames to very inappropriate ironmongery for their portrayals.

We REALLY need sone nice simple messers, hangers, and arming swords with wood gripped, scale tang construction, and I don't see a lot of that available readily Stateside.

For stock removal swords, with the best detail available, Albion, followed by Arms and Armour. Gus Trims swords are great swords, but they aren't historical.

If you want the Top of the Heap for the best forged sword, with all the proper historical detail, well there are a handful of Smiths, with long waiting lines, and be prepared to spend till past the huirting point. I don't think it is debatable that the Medieval Market is led by Peter Johnson, in this catagory.

I will second Paul Binns. I personally prefer something made by one man than something manufactured, but that is more about personal preference than quality.

Uric

Blackoak wrote:I will second Paul Binns. I personally prefer something made by one man than something manufactured, but that is more about personal preference than quality.

Uric

Ah! Another believer!

You have to handle a Paul Binns sword to know what I amtalking about.

I also own an AT "Phat Bastard" with grip by Christian Fletcher. It is a lovely sword, but I am not sure I'd take to a real war. Paul's sword is ALIVE. I swear the thing holds my hand and not the reverse.
And HE DOES MAKE ALL THE SWORD HIMSELF. I can almost envision him in the forge like Conan's father.
He was rather late in finishing my sword this past winter, and I asked him what was the cause, he told me -I smiled- that in winter his forge takes extra time to get to the right temps and he freezes his nuts off working on it outside... The man is a swordsmith....

I wish I had the money to comission one of his pattern welded jobs. The are jaw dropping, truly swords worthy of ancient kings....
Look at this spear point by him....


[img]http://www.paul-binns-swords.co.uk/patternweldedimages/HerringBoneSpear_large.jpg[/img]

At this point in time I would not get a sword from anyone else....

Rowan

David Teague wrote:

brunoG wrote:

David Teague wrote:I'm really pleased with Arms & Armour along with Albion.

3rd place would go to Del Tin

I don't care for swords with a threaded tang so I'm not a fan of Angus Trim... if he made em peened then the story would change

(We are taking "battle ready sharps" here, right?)

I think that for reenactment blunt a threaded tang would be better in order to allow easy maintenance.

Today we have not much spare time and a threaded tang can be made as a sturdy as necessary thanks to the modern steels we have.

I would reserve authentically built tangs to serious collectors and water jug cutters, or for the finest and experienced fencers.

Sorry, I disagree. I have some very nice custom fencing blunted backswords that have a stout threaded tang and they rattle apart when struck sword on sword (which is rather anoying in the middle of a backsword bout), I have some very nice peened blunted longswords that are going on a few years of sword on sword contact with out needing to be repeened... which isn't that hard to do. I am taking as a WMA instructor/student here and not as a reenactor.

Cheers,

DT

I understand, my associate (hobby) smith is a lathe expert, I guess the problem lies in a not so precise threading .

our reenactor are WMA practitioners too, and most are half experienced, so they exchange happily stout blows.

I would solve this problem by placing a small threaded cap after the pommel to act as a second nut.

The pommel and second nut (masked as cap) assembly should assure a tight fit.

Perhaps another hidden nut could be placed immediately before the pommel, to be hidden by the handle.