The Armour Archive

Okay, I am putting this here rather than the armor design and construction thread, since this deals with making things for sale.

What is the difference between charging $25.00 for a rattan weapon and charging $25.00 for an armor piece?

Example. The rattan daggers I make cost about $15.00 in materials and take about an hour of work. $10 for labor doesn't seem outrageous to me.

A leather demi gauntlet has about $15.00 in materials and takes about an hour over all (though spread out over a couple of days to allow the leather to dry between stages).

Tools needed for a rattan weapon, rasp, plane, saw, knife. Anyone can do it.

Tools needed for demi gauntlet, leather cutter (knife, shears), needle, edger, hole punch. Anyone can do it.

The same formula can be used for just about any piece of armor, and or rattan weapon. So why is it that there is such a stigma about selling rattan weapons?

Now there is a market, I have had good demand for the rattan weapons I have made. But there are still some folks that think there is a difference. It is okay to charge for armor, but it is not okay to charge for a rattan weapon. People just don't seem to think of rattan and tape as costing anything. I can use half a roll of strapping tape on a sword. The roll costs anywhere from $3 to $5. Duct tape costs $5 to $8 a roll, more if you use gaffers tape. If you make an ax there is the foam and/or leather costs. It may be scrap leather, but you had to pay for the hide in the first place, so scrap or not the leather has some value.

So why is it okay to charge for materials and labor on armor, but not for rattan weapons?

This is NOT aimed at any one person, nor an attempt to call someone out. I have had this same discussion with others in person and off list, and I wanted to open a discussion here.

I'm leary of buying pre-made weapons because I want to know exactly what it feels like, how it balances, etc. A sword is a lot more personal than a demi-gauntlet - while a heavier demi, or one that restricts my range of motion will irritate me, a sword that is "wrong" will not only irritate me it will potentially hurt my elbow or wrist. I know people who are so particular about their sword grips that they will make everyone EXACTLY the same. These people are also particular about their armor, but a demi (or whatever, can be modified or resold)

Also, I think that people perceive wepons as disposable, and rightly so. I don't really want to pay $10/hour to someone to make something that I will have to throw away. I may not be able to make as well as you do, but at least my attempt is free in front of the TV.

Does all of that make sense?

I have no idea why there would be a stigma attached to selling work.

Maybe I can address the media, experience level and the tools - just my perspective, mind you.

Tools needed for a rattan weapon, rasp, plane, saw, knife. Anyone can do it.

Tools needed for demi gauntlet, leather cutter (knife, shears), needle, edger, hole punch. Anyone can do it.

The main difference here is the first set of tools can be used for many projects with different media. Folks may even have these tools on hand. If they don't, they're a little easier to rationalize, even ones that are a little more expensive. I got my tablesaw for projects around the house. Just because I can use it to make nice a smooth 1-1/4" thick piece out of a 2" piece of rattan, doesn't mean I bought it *for* that purpose. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. The second set of tools you list is a little more specialized.

I had my first wood shop class in 7th grade - I never had a leatherworking class. Woodworking on rattan is not much different than standard woodworking, so it may be a little more familiar to folks.

I can get a sword-length stave of rattan for ~$7 What's the smallest amount I can spend on leather to make a single demi?

I can make a rattan sword in an evening, while watching TV. The associated "mess" can be very easily cleaned up. Is the same true for leatherworking? I don't know. I *know* it's not the same for metalworking.

both can be resold really granted armour has a quicker turnaround but it depends sometimes I buy things to give as ransom or tourny prizes or to new fighters returning the favors other did for me now its my turn to give back.

Olaf

There's nothing wrong with it. There are people who want want to buy them, they won't. There are people who don't want to buy leather armor, they don't. Then again, there are people who do and they will. As long as there is a market for it, make it.

I am not talking about the market for the weapons. I do sell them. What I am talking about it the attitude from some that any price for a rattan weapon is too much. It is the idea that asking anything for a rattan weapon is wrong.

It is just fine Torvald -I have sold, and still do from time to time sell rattan weapons.

The reason why alot of people don't understand it is because they don't see why someone would pay anyone to wrap some ducttape around a stick, and attach a crossguard/baskethilt (possibly a thrusting tip and lanyard). They don't realize that some people just don't have the time, but have the money. Other people just don't like to mess with all the weapon making stuff, or live in apartments where they don't want ducttape, foam, etc laying around all the time.

So just keep making rattan weapons and enjoy the fact that some people really apprieciate it!

(^_^)

Torvaldr wrote:What I am talking about it the attitude from some that any price for a rattan weapon is too much.

I got nothin' for this. I don't see anything wrong with a reasonably priced weapon.

tlast wrote:

Torvaldr wrote:What I am talking about it the attitude from some that any price for a rattan weapon is too much.

I got nothin' for this. I don't see anything wrong with a reasonably priced weapon.

some people will always make a round tree wrapped in a roll of strap tape and a spiral wrap of duct tape so the weapon is 12 pounds then add a huge welded steel basket that weighs 10 pounds and wonder why they get punked down when they swing the club at 2mph and blow out a elbow and shoulder a year into fighting. The only thing I have for them is a rubber hammer head

It's hammer time

Olaf

Torvaldr wrote:Okay, I am putting this here rather than the armor design and construction thread, since this deals with making things for sale.

What is the difference between charging $25.00 for a rattan weapon and charging $25.00 for an armor piece?

No difference whether you are making armor, weapons or weaved baskets. You are selling the item and you set the price.

Willing Pell wrote:

Torvaldr wrote:Okay, I am putting this here rather than the armor design and construction thread, since this deals with making things for sale.

What is the difference between charging $25.00 for a rattan weapon and charging $25.00 for an armor piece?

No difference whether you are making armor, weapons or weaved baskets. You are selling the item and you set the price.

Ok so Pell your selling baskets I am selling smartass comments first 50 are free

Actually, Torvaldr the difference is perception. Perception of skill and end value of the product sold.

I will agree that making a rattan weapon does take a certain amount of skill and it definately costs money to make.

What you are dealing with is the perception of the skill, materials and time it takes to make a rattan weapon over say a half gauntlet.

Not everyone can make armour. Sure, obtaining scrap leather or steel and forming it into a resemblance of a half gauntlet is possible, and several people are quite willing to try it out, but we are talking about something that is supposed to protect a vital part of a person. No one, not even the biggest cyber geek in the world can earn a vialble living without hands.

For some it is mearly convienience. Sure they can do it, but they are willing to pay someone else. However, the perception of how easy it is to make a rattan weapon compared to a viable, asteticlly pleasing piece of armour is vastly different.

You will always have a market to one extent or another for whatever product you want to sell, but on the same token, you will alwyas have those that choose not to purchase because of thier perception of how easily they can obtain or make it themselves. It is not alwyas cheaper to make a single item than to produce in bulk....but customers don't deal with anything more than perception of percieved value vs. cost of item to buy or make themselves.

Its like the age old belief that metal equals armour. No one will contest that metal isn't protective, but its astetic, the historical accuracy, the proper shape and function, these are realities that some people choose to over look. Its metal, it must be better than say alluminum, or leather, or heaven forfend plastic, even though the other materials have the right shape, or function better, or protect just as well if not better against blunt force trauma.

Perception, not reality rules people when it comes to what they spend thier money on. Why do you think advertising is so effective for some "name brand" products. We have been told for so long that something is necessary, or makes our lives more convienient, or whatever, and after enough time, it becomes a "known fact" that Chevrolet is better than Ford, or whatever.

Keep making your rattan weapons. As you say, there is a market for them. The only way to change perception is persistance and time.

And this why I opened this discussion. To try and help change the perception. I hope I didn't give anyone the impression that I am angry or upset. Not at all. Nor do I intend to stop making things. But I do think the perception on this issue is flawed and needed to be addressed, in a discussion format rather than a loud argument.

I've bought a couple of rattan weapons, when I get the cash I intend to buy one of your swords. I lack the patience to make a good looking rattan weapon. I would rather spend the extra 10-15 dollars buying one pre-made for the esthetic reason alone, to me, it's well worth it

Do you make Maces? I would need a basket hilt on it tho.

I would imagine that people look at rattan weapons as something that they can do just fine on their own thank you. Where the look at armor and the like as coming from a quasi mystical skill set that only the blessed can achieve.

As for rattan, they are right. anyone CAN make a very good weapon with very little in the way of materials tools and time. For armor they are mostly wrong but it takes a lot more learning to make armor than a rattan sword.

The thing is a lot of people make very crappy weapons and just don't know the difference. I've had people hold one of my swords, swing it around their heads a couple of times and stare at it in wonder as if it were Excalibur. When I pick up their round handled four layers of old duct taped sword I understand their wonderment as I am staring at it thinking "how in earth do they fight with this thing?"

I tell them that the rattan in mine is no different than the rattan in theirs. (Which is mostly true though selecting good sward material is a bit of an art.) It's all about how you shape and prepare the rattan that counts.

Another reason people maybe hesitant to buy a weapon per made is that the most difficult part for most people to do themselves is also the part they are most picky about, the grip. What people want in a sword grip as far as size and shape is extremely individual, (well save for the round handled raw rattan skin types who I think just don't know any better)

My thoughts on the matter.

-Justus

I have to agree with Justus for the most part, but there are a few other issues at hand here was well I think that are beyond just whether or not a "weapon" is worth buying.

For instance, for me, any pre-made weapon is overpriced. I make my own, and hand pick my rattan as well as what baskets I use for them. I shape my weapons for my hands, and then tape and weight them so they move the way I want. I don't think that you or anyone else would take the time or effort to make every sword exactly the way I want them- or maybe I wouldn't be able to afford to pay for them to be done the way I want every time. In addition, I also know the condition the rattan was in when I put it together, and am sure that there are no "illegal materials or methods" involved in their construction. I cannot say the same for sure about something pre-made without stripping it down first, and then what was the point in getting it?

Ironically, in the other sports field where I have the most experience, there is an analogous situation: the tennis racket stringer. Sure you can go to Wal Mart and buy a pre-strung racket for $15, but it is likely a piece of crap that has been poorly strung, and the racket is flippy floppy. But sure you can play tennis with it. Likewise a fighter can buy any random stick of rattan, put some tape and a hilt on it, and voila, they have a sword. Most likely it is a piece of crap, that moves with the grace of a club, and adversely affects their ability to fight. On the other end of the spectrum, you have professional stringers, who work with tennis pros to find the exact specs they want for their rackets, and match weight, balance and string tension on each perfectly, so the player can switch between them quickly and without adjustment when they break in the middle of a match. These guys charge in the hundreds for their services. Keep in mind though that players are also making money playing tennis. We don't make jack fighting.

In the end, people feel that they can master the skill of making weapons much more easily than they can making armor. You won't be able to convince them otherwise, unless you get a few mega-dukes fighting with your swords and swearing by them being so good that they wouldn't fight a Crown without them- just like those professional stringers who got players to swear by their string jobs...

The other big thing that you are not counting on is simply cost analysis. Why pay $25 for a sword that you can make yourself for $10? You could spend that money on a new pair of half gauntlets (that you don't think you can make btw), or a new video game. Swords and other weapons will ALWAYS lose out this way because almost everyone thinks they can make their own.

g-

PS- the laughable thing about this is that for some people swords last literally for years- usually because them make them with layer upon layer of tape and from tree trunk rattan. I am sure their fighting performance is affected by this. I am lucky when mine last a a couple of months.

I have a great sword that just turned into a broom after 4 years or so. just at the tip area so either i made a club or a ok GS my pole arms last about a year before i could fly fish with them

I like to throw another thought into the mix. Armor is bought with an expectancy of durability. Demand for stainless and price has less to do with function (althought it is typicly slightly stronger) but more to do with how much longer the piece will last since it does not rust. Similar thoughts encompass aluminum and plastic armor.

Rattan weapons on the other hand are expected to be abalitive. Thrusting tips have a life expectancy, the rattan has a life expectancy, even a basket will only last a few years before it needs bars re-bent and joints re-welded.

Participation in SCA combat is to some extent accept that weapons are a disposible comodity, like tires, while armor is generally durable until user decision to replace or upgrade, like a stereo. Therefore continued participation in combat almost makes it a requirement that a person be able to construct a weapon, even if it is not a fantastic weapon.

I think part of the reluctance to purchase weapons is the feeling of 'Why should I buy what I can build?" Often times, especially with daggers and maces, they can be made from leftovers or less desireable pieces thus reducing the perceived value of the material.

Just my thoughts on the issue.

Sean

Thank you Justus, Alaric, for putting my thoughts into words far better than I could.

The SCA is full of people who all think to themselves as they look at something...

"I can probably make that..."

Rattan weapons would be the easiest of these steps for people to feel they can easily do it themselves. Everyones an expert / craftsman it seems.

I wouldn't worry yourself over it too much, people really have no idea how much work actually goes into some things, and in the end, how much their own personal time is worth to them.

Charge your time and materials, and don't sell yourself short, ever. Far too many people in the SCA sell themselves short.

Ok I'll admit I didn't read the thread due to lack of time tonight.

But DUDE $10 is NOT a fair wage for production time. You have overhead, you have office time you have time at events you have time on the archive you have time picking up materials and you have time packing and shipping stuff. You need to be charging more either by streamlining your production process and keeping your price the same or by charging more.

You produce a superior product don't be afraid to charge a superior price.

This is exactly why armourers tank.

Mad Matt wrote:Ok I'll admit I didn't read the thread due to lack of time tonight.

But DUDE $10 is NOT a fair wage for production time. You have overhead, you have office time you have time at events you have time on the archive you have time picking up materials and you have time packing and shipping stuff. You need to be charging more either by streamlining your production process and keeping your price the same or by charging more.

You produce a superior product don't be afraid to charge a superior price.

This is exactly why armourers tank.

Agreed 100%, people will pay for quality work, don't undersell yourself.

As a misc schmoe, I generally make my own schtuff. Every now and then, I get requests from others to make stuff for them. I've gotten fairly decent money on occasion from doing stuff as simple as making sticks for swords, to making shaped spears out of rattan. My time is usually $10 to $20, and the people who asked me, have always been happy. Admittedly, sometimes I haven't been (the best rattan spear I ever made was for someone else )

I never understand the people who jump up and shout, "I can do that way cheaper" vs just going out and doing it. There are all sorts of things I look at and go "I can do that WAY cheaper!" and after I do it, I pay for the next one, cause I realize that it is cheaper to pay someone to do it, than do it myself. I.E. they can do it in 1 hour, it takes me 4.

Servus!

Everyone makes really good points here - I will only add that I think there is the "any price for a rattan weapon is too much" attitude because people consider rattan to be "free". As in "didn't cost me a dime", free.

How many times have you had six or seven good staves in the garage doing nothing but collecting dust, waiting for the saw and someone approaches you and asks if you have any extra rattan they can have? Not buy - have.

It's considered a freebie - making weapons out of it and actually charging money for it? Heresy!

I would like to see some " Cheaper" or " I could do that myself" sword pics.
Why? I have a second hand sword from Torv. It is about 9 months old and it is a perfect sword. I am not sure if i will ever purchase one myself, But i have some money set aside for some of his pretty axes.

I look at it this way.... I have no talent for creating things be it making my armor or making my weapons which is why I choose to buy everything.

If I was left to making it myself I would be wrapped in carpet with duct tape wearing a stock pot with eye holes and a chin strap. So be it because we are lazy or just lack the talent I say sell sell sell because you guys with the talent are the reason some of us even get to play.

I paid $60.00 + shipping for a used rattan sword.
The tape is all worn out and the tip is falling off.
It has nice aluminum pommel and cross guard.

I do not think I paid too much for it.
It is alot nicer than the ones I tried making.

Hal

RecklessAgony wrote:I would like to see some " Cheaper" or " I could do that myself" sword pics.
Why? I have a second hand sword from Torv. It is about 9 months old and it is a perfect sword. I am not sure if i will ever purchase one myself, But i have some money set aside for some of his pretty axes.

Please understand that no one here is saying Torvaldr's work is not excellent. But his question was why there is a perception that rattan weapons are too costly at any price.

I do not think they are, and if anything I think he is charging too little for work of his quality, but it helps to understand the mindset regardless.

I remember the very first time I did any merchanting at an event. I had made several varieties of small leather pouch, and was selling them for about half of what I had bought mine for at the renfair. I had this brain storm after getting my new pouch home and thinking dude, I could so make a better pouch than this, and I have a box full of scrap leather.

I can't count the number of folks that actually said to me, after studying one of the pouches "I'm pretty sure I could make one of these" I don't think they were trying to be rude (though one doesn't have to try) but the implication is of course why should I pay for something I could make myself cheaper?

There are few things that do not meet that criteria, of course people tend to forever underestimate things like tools, learning curve and talent.

But there is a market for everything, bottled WATER being the most luminousness example.

I sold all my pouches that day.

-Justus

I think that Justus and Alaric said what I was trying to say much better than I could.

The perception will always exist for some that they can make what ever cheaper than they can buy it. In some cases that is even true.

Its one of the reasons I posted my bazuband and shovelgreave tutorial on line with patterns and step by step instructions, tool suggestions etc.

Its funny how many people came to me after they attempted to make them themselves and paid me to make them for them. They were able to create the armour, it just wasn't exactly what they were attempting, so they then paid me....

Perception is a wonderful thing. Hell, I love the folks that feel as if they can make something less expensively than buying it, that's where my competition in the armouring market comes from, and that is how I got into armouring in the first place.

There is alot of stuff i _could_ make


i know i won't but i could. It is much easier to get it from someone else who can do it faster and better than me.

So i buy most stuff.

I'd buy weapons if i kew they would be made like i want them made. I'm reaaaalllly picky about my weapon feel, so i just build em. But no i don't see any diff in making wepons vs making armour.

I think a weapon is like any piece of personal sporting goods you have to make it feel right to you maybe kits with the blade shape done and a larger handle that could be shaped then again you know hwat keep making them people will buy them eventully when one is broke or something look at the daggers Vitus makes people buy them and don't bitch so much about the shape

Olaf

I also agree there is much I could make and have...but for me time is a serious constraint. I purchased one of Torvaldr's weapons and I gave him precise measurements, weight, balance points etc.....It came out GREAT. I cant tell the difference between how it feels and the one I made. Mine is basket hilted and I wanted a non-basket sword and they feel the same. I have used it some over the weekend in Honey war and it worked quite well along with Torvaldrs gauntlets I bought a couple of years ago. That being said I dont know how durable it is since I simply have not gotten to use it extensively....yet. I will keep folks updated as to its durability over time. All in all I like having the option to purchase all of my kit if I wanted to, including the weapons.

Also, I think that people perceive wepons as disposable, and rightly so. I don't really want to pay $10/hour to someone to make something that I will have to throw away. I may not be able to make as well as you do, but at least my attempt is free in front of the TV.

I take it you don't eat out much. This line of logic would keep everyone out of restaurants.

I buy stuff not unnecessarily because I can't do it, but because I don't want to do it. or don't want to spend the time to learn it, or someone already does it better, or a million other reasons.

I appreciate someone willing to take my money and make me things.

I have never understood the aversion people have to replacing weapons and armor in the SCA. They aren't overly expensive, but people just don't do it.

g-