Tea in classical and early medieval Rome and/or Persia ??

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:44 pm

The recent coffee discussions got me thinking --

Jewish legal discussions cite to the Talmud in discussions pertaining to the brewing of tea.
Unfortunately, I have yet to see the specific text but it seems that the Talmud talks about a drink made by pouring hot water onto leaves -- and the said discussions take for granted that this is tea though they also say it is different from ours (but it seems that the difference is that the leaves may have been prepared differently -- not that it was a different plant)

Anyhow -- the Talmud was a compilation work which was begun in the first century and completed around 500 CE.
The people involved were living in Persia, the Middle East, and South-Eastern Roman empire.

What is the possibility that they are in fact discussing actual tea??

I know that tea grows today in Georgia (the country in the Caucas mountains) - but have no clue about earlier than that
But Chinese goods seem to have been in common use in the Caucas in the 6-9th centuries -- so it is possible.

Anyone have any more on this?

William Frisbee · Post by **William Frisbee** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:56 pm

To the best of my knowledge, tea was unknown to the Romans.

beverage of choice were calda, mulsum, posca and of course wine (watered down of course)...

No beer (considered to be a barbarian beverage) and no milks (uncouth).

Karen Larsdatter · Post by **Karen Larsdatter** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:00 pm

Norman wrote:Jewish legal discussions cite to the Talmud in discussions pertaining to the brewing of tea.
... Anyone have any more on this?

Yep. This is (probably) not the tea you are looking for. :wink:

^ · Post by ^ » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:27 pm

Good Man of Paris discusses Sage tea, apparently when Europe started importing tea directly from China they sometimes traded sage for it, both sides thought they were getting a better deal.

Karen Larsdatter · Post by **Karen Larsdatter** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:53 pm

Piers Brent wrote:Good Man of Paris discusses Sage tea, apparently when Europe started importing tea directly from China they sometimes traded sage for it, both sides thought they were getting a better deal.

I've got my husband's copy of the Greco & Rose translation (<a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801474744?ie=UTF8&tag=mestkarelarsm-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0801474744">The Good Wife's Guide</a>) here at my desk, and cannot find any reference to a sage tea. Can you suggest where I ought to look?

There's a "sweet tisane" in the beverages for the sick:

Le Menagier de Paris wrote:Boil water, then for each septier of water add one generous bowl of barley -- it doesn't matter if it is all hulled -- and two parisis' worth of licorice; item, also figs. Boil until the barley bursts, then strain through two or three pieces of linen. Put plenty of rock sugar in each goblet. The barley that remains can be fed to poultry to fatten them. Nota that the youngest licorice is the best; when cut it is right green, while the older is more faded and dead and dry.

As far as I know, the tea trade to Europe starts some time after the publication of Giovanni Battista Ramusio's Navigatione et Viaggi, the earliest known European publication describing tea-drinking -- and even then, he's not reporting on first-hand observation, but on something he's heard a Persian caravan merchant describing the Chinese drinking chai catai. From <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0786714565?ie=UTF8&tag=suggestion-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0786714565">Tea: Addiction, Exploitation, and Empire</a>:

Ramusio wrote:They take of that herb, whether dry or fresh, and boil it well in water. One or two cups of this decoction taken on an empty stomach removes fever, headache, stomach-ache, pain in the side or in the joints, and it should be taken as hot as you can bear it.

(See also <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/023300212X?ie=UTF8&tag=suggestion-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=023300212X">Tea: The Drink That Changed the World</a>, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1580087450?ie=UTF8&tag=suggestion-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1580087450">The Story of Tea: A Cultural History and Drinking Guide</a>, etc.)

Here's a relevant bit from Kakuzo Okakura's <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fs%3Fie%3DUTF8%26ref%255F%3Dnb%255Fss%255Fb%255F0%255F26%26field-keywords%3Dthe%2520book%2520of%2520tea%2520kakuzo%2520okakura%26url%3Dsearch-alias%253Dstripbooks%26sprefix%3DThe%2520Book%2520of%2520Tea%2520Kakuzo%2520Oka&tag=suggestion-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=390957">Book of Tea</a><img src="https://www.assoc-amazon.com/e/ir?t=suggestion-20&l=ur2&o=1" width="1" height="1" border="0" alt="">:

The earliest record of tea in European writing is said to be found in the statement of an Arabian traveller, that after the year 879 the main sources of revenue in Canton were the duties on salt and tea. Marco Polo records the deposition of a Chinese minister of finance in 1285 for his arbitrary augmentation of the tea-taxes. It was at the period of the great discoveries that the European people began to know more about the extreme Orient. At the end of the sixteenth century the Hollanders brought the news that a pleasant drink was made in the East from the leaves of a bush. The travellers Giovanni Batista Ramusio (1559), L. Almeida (1576), Maffeno (1588), Tareira (1610), also mentioned tea. In the last-named year ships of the Dutch East India Company brought the first tea into Europe. It was known in France in 1636, and reached Russia in 1638. England welcomed it in 1650 and spoke of it as "That excellent and by all physicians approved China drink, called by the Chineans Tcha, and by other nations Tay, alias Tee."

^ · Post by ^ » Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:04 am

Karen Larsdatter wrote: cannot find any reference to a sage tea. Can you suggest where I ought to look?

Small Maters Section - Drinks Seasoned with Sage. Atleast that is where it is in the old Medieval Home Companion version.

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:28 am

Karen Larsdatter wrote:
Norman wrote:Jewish legal discussions cite to the Talmud in discussions pertaining to the brewing of tea.
... Anyone have any more on this?

Yep. This is (probably) not the tea you are looking for.
[...google books talmudic quote on medicinal mixture...]

Nope.
I'm talking about a drink of leaves steeped in water and drank for pleasure (ie: the way we treat drink Lipton or Celestial Seasonings)
The legal discussion is about how to prepare it on the Sabbath without breaking the laws of cooking.

Karen Larsdatter wrote:As far as I know, the tea trade to Europe starts some time after the publication of Giovanni Battista Ramusio's Navigatione et Viaggi, the earliest known European publication describing tea-drinking -- and even then, he's not reporting on first-hand observation, but on something he's heard a Persian caravan merchant describing the Chinese drinking chai catai.
Here's a relevant bit from Kakuzo Okakura's <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fs%3Fie%3DUTF8%26ref%255F%3Dnb%255Fss%255Fb%255F0%255F26%26field-keywords%3Dthe%2520book%2520of%2520tea%2520kakuzo%2520okakura%26url%3Dsearch-alias%253Dstripbooks%26sprefix%3DThe%2520Book%2520of%2520Tea%2520Kakuzo%2520Oka&tag=suggestion-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=390957">Book of Tea</a><img src="https://www.assoc-amazon.com/e/ir?t=suggestion-20&l=ur2&o=1" width="1" height="1" border="0" alt="">:
The earliest record of tea in European writing is said to be found in the statement of an Arabian traveller, that after the year 879 the main sources of revenue in Canton were the duties on salt and tea. ...

Persians - Arabs -- this is where I think more information is warranted. When did they start drinking it?
Remember my question is about South Eastern Rome, Persia and the Middle East
...and the Caucas is on the borders of even that -- and I know that there are finds there of Chinese trade goods and even local made materials based on Chinese trade -- including women's decorations, silk, paper
...and what about Bukhara, Samarkand (ie: Uzbekistan) - central Asia

England welcomed it in 1650 and spoke of it as "That excellent and by all physicians approved China drink, called by the Chineans Tcha, and by other nations Tay, alias Tee."

Who are these other nations that the English speak about? And when did they start drinking it?

Thanks

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:59 am

Norman wrote:
Karen Larsdatter wrote:
Norman wrote:Jewish legal discussions cite to the Talmud in discussions pertaining to the brewing of tea.
... Anyone have any more on this?

Yep. This is (probably) not the tea you are looking for.
[...google books talmudic quote on medicinal mixture...]

Nope.
I'm talking about a drink of leaves steeped in water and drank for pleasure (ie: the way we treat drink Lipton or Celestial Seasonings)
The legal discussion is about how to prepare it on the Sabbath without breaking the laws of cooking.

Karen Larsdatter wrote:As far as I know, the tea trade to Europe starts some time after the publication of Giovanni Battista Ramusio's Navigatione et Viaggi, the earliest known European publication describing tea-drinking -- and even then, he's not reporting on first-hand observation, but on something he's heard a Persian caravan merchant describing the Chinese drinking chai catai.
Here's a relevant bit from Kakuzo Okakura's <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fs%3Fie%3DUTF8%26ref%255F%3Dnb%255Fss%255Fb%255F0%255F26%26field-keywords%3Dthe%2520book%2520of%2520tea%2520kakuzo%2520okakura%26url%3Dsearch-alias%253Dstripbooks%26sprefix%3DThe%2520Book%2520of%2520Tea%2520Kakuzo%2520Oka&tag=suggestion-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=390957">Book of Tea</a><img src="https://www.assoc-amazon.com/e/ir?t=suggestion-20&l=ur2&o=1" width="1" height="1" border="0" alt="">:
The earliest record of tea in European writing is said to be found in the statement of an Arabian traveller, that after the year 879 the main sources of revenue in Canton were the duties on salt and tea. ...

Persians - Arabs -- this is where I think more information is warranted. When did they start drinking it?
Remember my question is about South Eastern Rome, Persia and the Middle East
...and the Caucas is on the borders of even that -- and I know that there are finds there of Chinese trade goods and even local made materials based on Chinese trade -- including women's decorations, silk, paper
...and what about Bukhara, Samarkand (ie: Uzbekistan) - central Asia
England welcomed it in 1650 and spoke of it as "That excellent and by all physicians approved China drink, called by the Chineans Tcha, and by other nations Tay, alias Tee."

Who are these other nations that the English speak about? And when did they start drinking it?

Thanks

The problem is, that various herbal teas appear in sources, like the Goodman of Paris, specifically as Medicinal applications, or for controling the humors, not as a standard drink for pleasure.

You must understand, that the entire concept of eating, and tailoring a meal, based around a persons humors, was de rigure amongst the classes of people in Western Europe who would leave us a written record of food consumption - EVERYTHING consumed was believed to have an overall effect on a persons humors, and overall health, and would thus be 'medicinal' in some fashion - for a survival into the modern era, in large portions of China today, the same belief is held, and even in large cities you can go to 'doctors' resteraunts, who examine you, and perscribe meals (and cook them right there), essentially based upon something similar to the European concept of the Humors. The Well Off would often have doctors monitor their table, and control the dishes they were fed.

The standard drink of most everyone in Europe was wine, or watered wine, or ale/beer, depending on location. Wine always, for the upper classes.

Considering the lack of treatment of sewage, and the properties of wine when mixing with water (a very efficient method of purification), and the generally held belief (correct, at that time), that if you drank pure water, in many circumstances, you were courting illness, you can see why water-based drinks for pleasure would not be commonplace

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:32 am

Yes chef,
I am familiar with everything you advise about
(I'm stuck with a prohibition against having fish and meat in the same course of a meal because Maimonades thought it would be a bad idea based on that whole humours theory)

However - there are degrees of medicialness,
The drink Karen found cited to had rather extreme after-effects which would pretty much rule out using it as a common desert drink. The drink I asked about was used as a common meal closer.
The drink that Karen cited about was not something made by steeping leaves in water. The drink I am asking about was.

And finaly -- I am aware that Western Europe did not have tea and assumed that they did not commonly drink leaves steeped in water
But I was trying to find out about Eastern Rome, Middle East and Persia in the period between the first and sixth centuries.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:36 am

Your title specified Early Medieval Rome, which would be Western Europe. Byzantium would be the title of the Eastern Empire.

Karen Larsdatter · Post by **Karen Larsdatter** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:49 am

Norman wrote:I'm talking about a drink of leaves steeped in water and drank for pleasure (ie: the way we treat drink Lipton or Celestial Seasonings)
The legal discussion is about how to prepare it on the Sabbath without breaking the laws of cooking.

Well, good luck looking for that, then.

The Talmud is pretty big, and that's the only reference I could find; it's telling you that root-tea cannot be consumed on the Sabbath, and it's not the same as what you're looking for.

Two other issues to consider --

Issue the First: Tea involves the tea plant (Camellia sinensis); if it's just other assorted leaves (or flowers, or whatever), it's a tisane or herbal tea. The Menagier's tisane recipe above does not involve leaves of the tea plant, for example. It is not, as the original posting above described, "actual tea."

So, to go back to another post upthread:

Piers Brent wrote:Small Maters Section - Drinks Seasoned with Sage. Atleast that is where it is in the old Medieval Home Companion version.

I don't have <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060166541?ie=UTF8&tag=suggestion-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0060166541">A Medieval Home Companion</a> in front of me here at the office, but according to http://tigerwytch.angelfire.com/recipes.htm the recipe is:

To make a cask of sage-flavored liquid, take two pounds of sage, clip off the stems, and put the leaves in the cask. Have a half ounce of cloves in a little cloth bag hung in the cask on a small cord. You can also put in a half ounce of bay, or an eighth of a pound of Mecca ginger, an eighth of a pound of long pepper, and an eighth of a pound of bay. When you want to make sage-flavored drinks at table in winter, have a ewer of sage water and pour it over white wine in a goblet.

This doesn't convince me of a thriving tea trade, bringing tea leaves from China to France in the 14th century, what with the lack of any reference to anything resembling tea leaves. :wink:

It's a "sage-flavored liquid" rather than a stand-alone beverage.

So, to go on, to Issue the Second: the concept of "drinking for pleasure." When we look at medieval beverages, few (including the boozes!) can really be exclusively "for pleasure"; most of them are considered to have some sort of medicinal property. Even though we can be pretty sure that people drank their beverage(s) of choice because they liked 'em, or because it was what was available in their area at that time, there's going to be some learned physician, somewhere, who wants you to know precisely what condition it will cure. (The Tacuinum Sanitatis is a good book to look in; even the winds, and different textiles in one's clothing, are broken down into medicinal properties.)

This doesn't necessarily mean that all remedies were drunk for pleasure; clearly quite a lot of concoctions were strictly medicinal. (But this is kind of a lengthier concept, and this post is getting QUITE long enough, don't you think?) :lol:

(And anyway, as I'm writing this long post, I see that CdeC has already addressed a lot of these issues.)

Norman wrote:
Kakuzo Okakura wrote:The earliest record of tea in European writing is said to be found in the statement of an Arabian traveller, that after the year 879 the main sources of revenue in Canton were the duties on salt and tea. ...

Persians - Arabs -- this is where I think more information is warranted. When did they start drinking it?
Remember my question is about South Eastern Rome, Persia and the Middle East
...and the Caucas is on the borders of even that -- and I know that there are finds there of Chinese trade goods and even local made materials based on Chinese trade -- including women's decorations, silk, paper
...and what about Bukhara, Samarkand (ie: Uzbekistan) - central Asia

It appears that the duties on salt and tea involve trade within China, from what I'm seeing of the aforementioned Arabic traveller's writing in <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0684807122?ie=UTF8&tag=suggestion-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0684807122">The Middle East: A Brief History of the Last 2,000 Years</a> --

The king has the exclusive right to the income from salt and from a herb which they drink with hot water. It is sold in every city at high prices, and is called sakh. It has more leaves than a clover and is slightly more scented, but is somewhat bitter. Water is boiled and then poured on it ... The total receipts of the public treasury come from poll-tax, salt, and from this herb.

According to <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0415966906?ie=UTF8&tag=suggestion-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0415966906">Medieval Islamic Civilization: An Encyclopedia</a>, "Coffee and tea, so popular in the modern Middle East, are relatively recent innovations: The latter is postmedieval and only the former can be called a (late) medieval drink."

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0684807122?ie=UTF8&tag=suggestion-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0684807122">The Middle East</a> does go on with some additional references to tea:

Bernard Lewis wrote:A little later, another writer, the famous al-Biruni, writing in the early eleventh century, gave a fuller description and some information about the cultivation and use of tea in China and Tibet. Tea drinking appears to have been introduced to Iran by the Mongol conquerors in the thirteenth century. It did not, however, become widespread, nor is there evidence of the habit having travelled any further west. The large-scale switch to tea drinking in Iran occurred in the early nineteenth century, when it was reintroduced from Russia. The extensive cultivation of tea did not begin until the twentieth, when it was encouraged by rulers in both Iran and Turkey, no doubt to reduce dependence on coffee, which they could not grow. Tea cultivation remained of relatively minor importance, mainly for local consumption and a small export surplus. A major tea-drinking area is the western Maghreb, where tea is first mentioned in about 1700. It was introduced and sold by French and English merchants who brought it from the East, and saw Northwest Africa as a useful extension to their European markets. Prepared with mint leaves, it has become the national drink of Morocco.

Edited to add this, in <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195173368?ie=UTF8&tag=suggestion-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0195173368">From Babel to Dragomans: Interpreting the Middle East</a>:

Bernard Lewis wrote:Hot drinks come surprisingly late. Fruit juices or infusions may have been heated, though even that is questionable. But the familiar hot drinks, tea, coffee, cocoa, were totally unknown in the Mediterranean and adjoining regions in antiquity and in the Middle Ages. We do find occasional reference in Arab travel books to the infusion of tea leaves in China. But they describe it with puzzlement and distaste, adn don't seem to have been tempted to import this. There is some evidence that when the Mongols conquered Iran in the thirteenth century they brought tea drinking with them, but it didn't take. It wasn't until much later that tea was reintroduced to the Middle East by Europeans. Sometimes it came over land from North China, sometimes by sea from South China. The North Chinese word for tea is chai, the South Chinese tey, two dialectal pronunciations of the same word, designated by the same Chinese character.

Then there's this bit in <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0313327734?ie=UTF8&tag=suggestion-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0313327734">Food Culture in Russia and Central Asia</a>:

Glenn Randall Mack & Asele Surina wrote:Cultural inspiration came not only from the West with Islam but also from China. Tea is perhaps the greatest culinary gift to Central Asia from the East. Though mass consumption of the drink appeared only in the modern era, tea was first introduced to Central Asia, Tibet, and Mongolia from China during the Tan dynasty in the seventh century. The dynsaty exerted its influence from Afghanistan to Korea, and tea and teahouses gradually spread throughout the region. Bricks of tea were transported through Central Asia along the Silk Road to India and Turkey, and eventually into Russia by at least the seventeenth century. Of the three basic categories of tea, green tea (Camellia sinensis) by far is the preference in Central Asia; Russians in the urban areas enjoy black tea, and oolong tea is conspicuously absent. The green tea is generally nonfermented, caffeinated, and yellow in color. Chinese sources point out that early Arab, Tocharian, Uighur, and Bactrian traders made a beeline for the teahouses in Chang'an (present-day Xi'an), the capital of the Tang dynasty and terminus of the silk road.

Norman wrote:
Kakuzo Okakura wrote:England welcomed it in 1650 and spoke of it as "That excellent and by all physicians approved China drink, called by the Chineans Tcha, and by other nations Tay, alias Tee."

Who are these other nations that the English speak about? And when did they start drinking it?

Doing a bit more research, this reference comes from one of the first known newspaper advertisements, in Politicus; it appears in a few issues from the 1650s: "That excellent and by all Physicians approved, Chinese drink called by the Chineans Tcha, by other nations Tay or Tee, is sold at the Sultanesshead, a Cophee House in Sweetings Rents by the Royal Exchange London."

Being an advertisement, though, they're a bit vague on details -- the other nations, or these physicians who are so keen to approve it for consumption. :wink:

I think the Dutch tea trade was established by this point, so I'd guess the "other nations" include the Netherlands, at least.

EDITED TO ADD references to tea in <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fs%3Fie%3DUTF8%26ref%255F%3Dnb%255Fss%255Fgw%26field-keywords%3Dpepys%2520diary%26url%3Dsearch-alias%253Daps&tag=suggestion-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=390957">The Diary of Samuel Pepys</a><img src="https://www.assoc-amazon.com/e/ir?t=suggestion-20&l=ur2&o=1" width="1" height="1" border="0" alt="">, most notably on 25 September 1660 ("I did send for a cup of tee (a China drink) of which I never had drank before") and also 13 December 1665 ("to Mr. Pierceâ€™s, where he and his wife made me drink some tea").

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:55 am

I guess it depends on what you consider "tea" - actual tea plant - not Medieval outside of Chinas sphere, but herbal concoctions, that would be classified as 'tea' today, clearly existed. They didn't serve it out in teapots as 4PM sharp, with cucumber sandwiches, however.

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:36 am

I find myself wanting to kick some ancient learned rabbis in the goolies for totally missing the point on a few things.

Jeez.

Effingham

William Frisbee · Post by **William Frisbee** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:11 am

Effingham wrote:I find myself wanting to kick some ancient learned rabbis in the goolies for totally missing the point on a few things.

Jeez.

Effingham

OK I just shot Red Bull out my nose. Thanks Effingham.

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:20 am

Karen,
Thank you tremendously for your research

Heh

I guess I should have started in the logical place to start on this issue - ask a rabbi
...now I'll have to find one who'll humour my inquiries

chef de chambre wrote:Your title specified Early Medieval Rome, which would be Western Europe. Byzantium would be the title of the Eastern Empire.

Urm - I thought I clarified in the question. Sorry.
But did not mean Byzantium because it was largely before the split (they were refering to Titus, Vespatian, Marcus Aurelius...) -- I mean the geographical areas in the South and East of the empire (and, as mentioned, the abbuting competitors) -- Israel, Syria, Iran, Iraq...

Karen Larsdatter wrote:So, to go on, to Issue the Second: the concept of "drinking for pleasure." When we look at medieval beverages, few (including the boozes!) can really be exclusively "for pleasure"; most of them are considered to have some sort of medicinal property. Even though we can be pretty sure that people drank their beverage(s) of choice because they liked 'em, or because it was what was available in their area at that time, there's going to be some learned physician, somewhere, who wants you to know precisely what condition it will cure.

Well, to this day people (at least those who were old-country bred) will speak of the benefits of given eating habbits
-- you want the tea after the meal to complete it, to settle the stomach, to help digest...
-- you want to drink some liquor after fish to make sure that any bones you may have swallowed will be disolved ... etc.
-- if you eat herring while drinking, you will not get drunk
...
But on the other hand,
Maimonades (physician to Saladin and chief rabbi of Egypt and Yemen, 12th century) has whole sections of advice to moderate the eating of things known to be unhealthy -- onions, mushrooms...
so the idea of eating things that are not only non-medicinal but are actualy bad for you was quite part of the eating culture as well.

Anyhow - I did not mean to imply "exclusively" for pleasure -- but simply as a common compliment to the meal.
(as opposed to some sort of drastic curative)

Karen Larsdatter wrote:Tea involves the tea plant (Camellia sinensis); if it's just other assorted leaves (or flowers, or whatever), it's a tisane or herbal tea. The Menagier's tisane recipe above does not involve leaves of the tea plant, for example. It is not, as the original posting above described, "actual tea."

Absolutely --
(this is why I asked - I'd taken for granted that what was spoken of was not tea ...but I wanted to rethink the issue in light of both the legal precedent it is used for and the other common Chinese trade items I was aware of)

So - to rephrase my question.
We will now assume that this is probably not actual tea
Given that --
Does anyone know what "herbal teas" (ie: leaves steeped in hot water) were used between the first and sixth centuries in Iran, Iraq, and the abbuting Roman areas -- not as drastic medicines but as meal complements??

Effingham wrote:I find myself wanting to kick some ancient learned rabbis in the goolies for totally missing the point on a few things.

Whats got your panties in a bunch?

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:29 am

Norman wrote:
Effingham wrote:I find myself wanting to kick some ancient learned rabbis in the goolies for totally missing the point on a few things.

Whats got your panties in a bunch?

Reread the argument about curing jaundice being a bad thing because it is "deliberately" making someone a eunuch.

Thomas Powers · Post by **Thomas Powers** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:49 am

Some of us today hold that if it doesn't contain Camellia sinensis it isn't tea but a tisane!

An uphill battle I will agree

Thomas

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:23 pm

Effingham wrote:Reread the argument about curing jaundice being a bad thing because it is "deliberately" making someone a eunuch.

In the words of Indigo Montoya "I don't think it means what you think it means"
This is the problem with quoting decontexted Talmudic discussion.
All sorts of people have come up with all sorts of weird ideas about what we're like by reading out of context Talmudic quotes and paraphrases.
The rabbis in the Talmud discussed all sorts of options and often went quite far afield (and the "discussion" may actualy continue over something like 300 years -- you may read "rabbi so-n-so said... rabbi other-guy counters..." but if you are learning in detail, you will know that rabbi so-n-so lived 200 years before rabbi other-guy) ...and even then, the final resolution of the discussion may not be apparent until you have cross-referenced several volumes (or at the very least several chapters)...
In this case, it looks to me like they are saying the opposite of what you are upset about --
"This is said only in reference to one who has the intention of making one a eunuch, but not with reference to one who administers the remedy for jaundice..."
But in any case - this translation is evidently not the best -- notice how the quote from Rabbi Johanan, which evidently contradicts the above opinion and therefore should be connected with "but" is in this translation connected with "as"
(but if only it was an issue of a simple conjunction! -- the Aramaic of the Talmud is simply incapable of direct, inteligible translation into understandible English -- its ultimate, 2000-year-old legalese!)

And in any case -- it looks like the whole question may be limited to things prohibited for Shabbat rather than a remedy that is altogether prohibited. Notice how the earlier passage says "It is permitted to partake ...on the Sabbath ...with the exception of tree-water and root-tea..."
This passage would make no sense if root-tea was generaly prohibited.

I would think we would certainly want our doctors (and the legal system that governs doctor behaviour) to take seriously the possibility of impotence (or any other life-altering side effects) as an outcome of a particular course of treatment and to carefuly go through the various options and possibilities.

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:16 pm

For jaundice two cups are to be administered, but the patient will be barren ever after. May this be done? Have we not learned in a Boraitha: Whence do we know that castrating a man is prohibited? From the passage [Lev. xxii. 24]: "And in our land shall ye not make the like." Which means, ye shall not do this on your own bodies ... It is allowed to give a man two cups of root-tea for jaundice providing he was already impotent. But even this is prohibited!

This is ludicrous.

Effingham

^ · Post by ^ » Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:50 pm

Karen Larsdatter wrote: This doesn't convince me of a thriving tea trade, bringing tea leaves from China to France in the 14th century, what with the lack of any reference to anything resembling tea leaves. It's a "sage-flavored liquid" rather than a stand-alone beverage.

Sorry I was using tea coloquially and didn't mean to imply that it was tea tea but that it was a drink made from leaves.

And I hadn't really payed much attention to the liquid detail of the recipe. I ended up coming across it backwards. Down here the SCA does a Princesses Tea, and I being the person I am I was like was tea even in Europe at the time, so in researching that I ended up back with sage 'tea' and the recipe seems to fit, thats what I get for ASSuming. Maybe someone someone with access to the online OED can post some of the quotes on there about it as that is where I found several good references.

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:30 pm

Effingham wrote:
It is allowed to give a man two cups of root-tea for jaundice providing he was already impotent. But even this is prohibited!

This is ludicrous.

Note how in the same quote it says - "this is allowed" but then "even this is prohibited"? And a few sentences before, there is another statement that the remedy is allowed provided that someone did not set out to purposefuly make the patient a Eunuch.
The evidently contradictory passages right next to each other is the mode of discussion -- you examine every possibility and eventualy come to a decision. As I said -- looking at a small, indifferently translated passage is not the best way to look at the Talmud (and form opinion about the people involved).
To form a fair opinion about what the decision was in this issue and how it was arrived and how it was carried out - you would need to study alot more - and with at the very least a good and well commented translation.

Derian le Breton · Post by **Derian le Breton** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:33 pm

Effingham wrote:This is ludicrous.

People who live in glass houses should not throw stones...

-Derian.

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:44 am

So

Back to "herbal tea" in Persia and the South Eastern Roman Empire between first and sixth century ??

Tea in classical and early medieval Rome and/or Persia ??

Tea in classical and early medieval Rome and/or Persia ??

Re: Tea in classical and early medieval Rome and/or Persia ?