Armour from 16th century russian manuscript?

Urban · Post by **Urban** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:06 pm

Images taken from http://www.goldschp.net/SIG/nevskii/nevskii.html

Can anyone describe what type of armour is being depicted in these images?
I'm particularly interested in the inverted 'T' looking thing on the chest, but I'm in the dark as to what any of it is composed of. Thanks in advance.

[img]http://www.goldschp.net/SIG/nevskii/nev34.jpg[/img]

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:24 am

Lordy, I couldn't even begin to guess. I think we need more context; what quarter century of the 16th? What battle does this depict? What part of Russia? Are these russians being depicted? Where are my socks? That sort of thing.

Baron Alcyoneus · Post by **Baron Alcyoneus** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:28 am

It is stylized Byzantine armor from an earlier age.

"Varangian bra" is how it is sometimes referred to...

Urban · Post by **Urban** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:33 am

From wikipedia:

"Life of Alexander Nevsky" (Russian: Житие Александра Невского; Zhitiye Aleksandra Nevskogo) is a Russian illuminated manuscript of the late 16th century (1560-1570). It is currently housed in the Saltykov-Shchedrin Public Library in Saint Petersburg, Russia.

On the particular image I posted:

In this year Batu's Tatars conquered the Ugrians, and took Menush the king's son with their hands, and brought him to Batu together with many great commanders.

I guess I should be asking would this armor be particular to Nevksy's time or illustrated in contemporary armour.

D. Sebastian · Post by **D. Sebastian** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:55 am

It is quite similar to Byzantine art, so I'm going to guess that it's depictions of lamellar or possibly chain corsoletts.

At some point, the Herculean Knot (chest sash), becomes the Varangian Bra (chest strap), often but not always depicted with shoulder straps.
It gets fancier in art as time goes on.

[img]http://warriorsofhistory.com/research/Byzantine/St.Theodor%20St.Nikolaos%20Orphanos%20-Thessaloniki-1310-20.JPG[/img]

[img]http://www.honorblade.com/stuff/cet/RomanceOfAlexander3.jpg[/img]

[img]http://warriorsofhistory.com/research/Byzantine/Saints%20George%20and%20Paraskeva%20Late%2015th%20or%20early%2016th.jpg[/img]

[img]http://warriorsofhistory.com/research/Byzantine/Mid%2017th-century%20egg-tempera%20on%20wood%20icon%20at%20Iviron%20Monastery%20-%20Mt.%20Athos.jpg[/img]

Later versions with more artistic flair?

[img]http://warriorsofhistory.com/research/Byzantine/14th%20cent%20Lesnovo%20Monastery%20in%20Macedonia_detail_157.jpg[/img]

[img]http://warriorsofhistory.com/research/Byzantine/Bulgaria%20from%20the%20second%20half%20of%20the%2015th%20century1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://warriorsofhistory.com/research/Byzantine/Prot_Panselinos_Ag_Merkour.jpg[/img]

[img]http://warriorsofhistory.com/research/Byzantine/Mount%20Athos%2013%20century.jpg[/img]

More:
http://warriorsofhistory.com/research/gallery/

I don't have any depictions in the Rus Gallery:
http://warriorsofhistory.com/research/gallery/?p=0&g=16

D. Sebastian · Post by **D. Sebastian** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:01 am

As your source was created in the 1700's, there is an out of period aspect to the art.

However, there is prescient to that depiction in Christian Orthodox art throughout the end of the Eastern Roman Empire and after.

Something else to note, look at the neck on Saint Merkourios' vest.
The part folded forward depicts maile on the inside of the vest.

[img]http://warriorsofhistory.com/research/Byzantine/Merkourios.jpg[/img]

I speculate that it was an attempt not cook in the sun of the middle east, but who really knows.

Urban · Post by **Urban** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:58 am

Excellent, thank you for the info. Now was there a particular purpose to the "Varangian Bra". I see you have one on your Byzantine kit from the website (most excellent by the way).

I was considering doing a later period Russian persona, but I find myself leaning back towards the earlier "Golden Age" of the Kievan Rus. I know there was much interaction between the Kievan Rus and Byzantines, conversion to Eastern Christianity and what not. So I'm going to hazard a guess and say I could get away with doing a byzantine style lamellar body with a Rus helm (Great Polish or something in that general time period).

D. Sebastian · Post by **D. Sebastian** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:56 pm

That's a very good question.

There are a great many depictions of the VB in artwork spanning the centuries, but in is never mentioned directly in any of the period military manuals. Possibly it was one of the many assimilations of Persian technology (as was the Sassanid helm and concept of the cataphract). Its also possible it is a stylized form of art to denoting the "good guys" that stuck.

OK, so here's a very "wave top" history of the piece in artwork form and assumes that the "VB" was descended from the "HK".

We start with the Herculean knot. The chest sash seen on many 'old Roman' statues:

1 Cent BC:

[img]http://warriorsofhistory.com/research/Roman/Julius%20caesar%20statue%20II_small.jpg[/img]

[img]http://warriorsofhistory.com/research/Roman/Palazzo%20Altemps-ludovisisdet3a.jpg[/img]

Then in the 3d Century the Roman Empire breaks in to 4 and we see this:

[img]http://warriorsofhistory.com/research/Roman/The%20Four%20Tetrarchs%20305%20AD%20-%202.jpg[/img]

Around the 5th Cent AD, the Persians have art with this on it:

10th Century Byzantine:

[img]http://warriorsofhistory.com/research/Byzantine/10th%20century%20Byzantine%20ivory%20chest%20-%20Skutatoi%20wearing%20Varangian%20Bra%20over%20lamellar.jpg[/img]

BUT, here's 11th Century art:

[img]http://warriorsofhistory.com/research/Byzantine/l9-1.jpg[/img]

and etcetera...

So, why have it at all?

Assuming that it was really used, it's possible that it was a battlefield identifier.

A friend of mine uses one with his chainmaile and swears that is helps defer the weight from his shoulders, much as belting at the waist does.

Having used both the sash and bra on armours, I like how I can tighten the armour right to my body, it feels less encumbering and allows freer movement that way.

Much like the sash, it's possible it denoted rank.

Ah speculation, endless possibilities...

Baron Alcyoneus · Post by **Baron Alcyoneus** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:37 pm

One of the sites I looked at last night did specify that the Hurculean Knot did specify rank.

http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEqui ... rmour.html

uscle Armour / Cuirass
Muscle armour was worn exclusively by high ranking officers and generals, including the emperor. A good example is the Augustus statue of Primaporta to the left (two images), and to the midle-right a statue of Marcus Aurelius of the Musei Capitolini. Note the knot around Marcus's waist (hercules knot) indicating the commanding officer. Far right another example with two griffins and medusa

D. Sebastian · Post by **D. Sebastian** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:30 pm

Interesting!

Especially as there are a bunch of emperor statues in muscled curiasses without a knot!

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:44 pm

Some observations on the image and manuscript
and its usefulness in interpreting kit:

1) The particular image depicts Mongols "Batu's Tatars conquered the Ugrians, and took Menush ...and brought him to Batu" Not Russians. So, if any results could be drawn from the images, this would not be the right one for you to look at.

2) From an artistic point of view, I find this manuscript amazing as it uses a very strong Persian-Mongol book illustration framework while integrating it with very Byzantine-Russian detail.

3) From an armour point of view, and especialy from the point of view of trying to figure out what folks were wearing 300 years before the art was done, I believe this document is largely useless. The artist did not know (and largely did not care) what the folks 300 years ago looked like -- except as to how they fit into his iconographic tradition.

4) looking at the rest of the work, it is evident that the artist was not particularly interested in showing armour and did so in such a schematic fashion that any interpretation would have to be based on knowledge completely external to the manuscript.

4) If you are going to artistic sources for Alexander Nevsky, you'd be more likely to be accurate if you enjoy Eizenshtein's movie "Alexander Nevsky" - it is quite available in the US and the clothing and armour is presented in quite strong detail (though often at least modestly out of date).

5) If you realy want guesses on the clothing in the manuscript and specificaly the picture you presented, compare (for instance) this picture. http://www.goldschp.net/SIG/nevskii/nev65.jpg Note that he yellow bands with circles appear at the collar, cuffs, and bicep band of the non-armour clothing. Consistant with some of the much later icons presented above, this is most likely decoration. This is also consistant with saying -- these guys are wearing Brigandines/Coats of Plate as found on a number of coins contemporary with Nevsky (on which the nails are visible but fabric decoration is not shown).

A fairly good likelyhood of an accurate mid 13th century Russian (or Polovtsian) portrayal is a Coat of PLates with Pteruges at the upper arm and waist over a knee length shirt (it is probably a linen front opening coat).
The Polovtsian (Kipchak) Babas (statues) do show a "bra" sort of armour (and at least one has been found) -- one disk at the back, two disks in front (a little above the chest actualy) all connected with a belt under the arm and belts over the shoulders. But I don't think that this is shown in this piece of art)
If you go to my site as it is presented at www.archive.org (use the "wayback machine" to find www.geocities.com/normlaw ), look up the article "mirror and brasier armour"