10th century Rus burials

[James B.]

That drawing is great; I wanted to see more about the embroidered shoe which are in line with other 10th/11th century shoes in Europe.

The boots look in line with some others of that era with that Eastern flair you don't see in most of the other European finds, however all seem to be turned soles in the drawings unlike the one in the picture. That construction difference is all I want to make note of. If we wanted to be sure make a turn sole not a welted sole.

I may have to think about updating my Rus Viking shoes/boots.

[VikingofKiev]

To the very first post:
Translated description of the Gulbische reconstruction.
http://dom-np.narod.ru/rekon/gulbishe2.html

A rus warrior. Mid 10 c. Gulbische Mound. D.Samokvasov's Excavations. 1872. GHM (Government History Museum).

This is how a participant of the earl Svyatoslav's campaigns might have looked like.
The warrior was probably of a great stature - about 2 meters high. A very large helmet and stirrup found in the mound may prove it as well as one of the longest "karoling" type swords (1 m 26 cm). The spheroconical four parts helm is related to the type well spread in the central and eastern Europe; it is the same as the one from the Chernaya Mogila burial, but not so much decorated.

The hatchet is taken from the arming kits of steppe equestrians. The belt decorated with silver-gilt plates is of khazar-hungarian origin. The belt purse (tarsoly), silken kaftan with shaped gilt fasteners give the rus warrior somewhat eastern look.

Reconstructed by the artist Oleg Fiodorov.

To be continued.

[VikingofKiev]

More on Gulbische:

Some drawings of the found artifacts.
http://radikal.ru/F/i025.radikal.ru/071 ... c.jpg.html
The reconstruction of the helmet is said to be quite approximate as it preserved badly and is not yet cleaned due to complexity of the work.

It is considered that the period kaftans might have been padded with fur and have short or no sleeves.

Similar kaftan fasteners were found in Hungary (not once).

Generally the author of these reconstructions (Oleg Fiodorov) is said to be a good expert in costume history. He as well was consulted on weapon and armor by scientists. So, he can be trusted).
What is not considered to be trusted among the Russian and Ukrainian reenactors is the Osprey Books drawings. So beware!

More pictures of some small stuff from the mound:
here1, here2, here3 and here4

In many aspects this burial is an obscure and enigmatic one 'cause many things can not be interpreted unambiguously.

As for the belt purses of the type - it seems to have originated among the 10c. Magyar (the Hungarian) and spread from there to the lands far away. These purses might be decorated with cast mounts or with a single plate on flap. Plates are mostly found in Hungary but I know of one found in a burial of a local tribe at the upper Volga in Russia. Decorative mounts are found in as far as Scandinavia (Birka), Caucasus mts., Upper Volga, Ukraine (Gulbische, Shestovitsa burials), Gnezdovo Burials (Russia) and more. It seems it was a fashion of the time. As far as I know some casting molds for making these mounts were found in Ukraine (don't remember where exactly), it means it was produced locally and was not only imported from the Magyar. If you want to reconstruct a rus or a scandinavian warrior of around 10c. it seems to be historically appropriate to have a tarsoly-belt purse.
Here is a staple site on this type purses:
http://www.tarsolyosok.hu/eng/leleteink.htm

[Halbrust]

More on Gulbische:

It is considered that the period kaftans might have been padded with fur and have short or no sleeves.

Similar kaftan fasteners were found in Hungary (not once).

I'm a little confused. Are you saying that short or no sleeves is possible or not?

[Mord]

To the very first post:
Translated description of the Gulbische reconstruction.
http://dom-np.narod.ru/rekon/gulbishe2.html

A rus warrior. Mid 10 c. Gulbische Mound. D.Samokvasov's Excavations. 1872. GHM (Government History Museum).

This is how a participant of the earl Svyatoslav's campaigns might have looked like.
The warrior was probably of a great stature - about 2 meters high. A very large helmet and stirrup found in the mound may prove it as well as one of the longest "karoling" type swords (1 m 26 cm). The spheroconical four parts helm is related to the type well spread in the central and eastern Europe; it is the same as the one from the Chernaya Mogila burial, but not so much decorated.

The hatchet is taken from the arming kits of steppe equestrians. The belt decorated with silver-gilt plates is of khazar-hungarian origin. The belt purse (tarsoly), silken kaftan with shaped gilt fasteners give the rus warrior somewhat eastern look.

Reconstructed by the artist Oleg Fiodorov.

To be continued.

Many thanks for the citation and the name.

Mord.

[VikingofKiev]

More on Gulbische:

It is considered that the period kaftans might have been padded with fur and have short or no sleeves.

Similar kaftan fasteners were found in Hungary (not once).

I'm a little confused. Are you saying that short or no sleeves is possible or not?

Sorry, I have possibly written slightly unclear.
I mean the period kaftans might have been without sleeves or with shortened ones. There was a discussion of this at one of the russian reenactment forums. Sleeveless kaftan is mentioned in one of manuscripts by the Byzantine Emperor Constantine Porphyrogenitus saying about Rus warriors. This is how the artist and those who were working with him explain this fact.

[Norman]

I mean the period kaftans might have been without sleeves or with shortened ones. There was a discussion of this at one of the russian reenactment forums. Sleeveless kaftan is mentioned in one of manuscripts by the Byzantine Emperor Constantine Porphyrogenitus saying about Rus warriors. This is how the artist and those who were working with him explain this fact.

If you can point me to the discussions citing short sleeved coats and explaining Fedorov's painting on that basis, I would love to read them. However, the discussions I have read indicate that the Gulbishe Kaftan was essentialy paralel to the Moschevaya Balka and related burials with fur-lined silk Kaftans. That all of those were full sleeved -- except insamuch as some of the sleeves were incomplete (like the green one in Hermitage). And that Fedorov was using an artistic convention to show off the warrior's hauberk underneath the coat.

As for the belt purses of the type - it seems to have originated among the 10c. Magyar (the Hungarian) and spread from there to the lands far away.

With this I must strongly disagree. The Magyars migrated west in the 9-10th century (largely moving to independance from vassalage to the Khazar empire in Ukraine/ Caucas) bringing with them a version of the Turkic fashions which had long been in place in the lands of their origin. Their belt decorations show a clear afinity to the Khazar model - either descending from it or a joint ancestor. Likewise, contrary to what you seem to assert, the pouches to the east of Hungary are not Magyar exports -- they are the originals from these lands - Khazar, Alan ..etc. If anything - they are progenitors of the Magyar type. However, the Magyar pouches, while similar to those Eastern cousins, developed their own distinctive form - with the single large plate cover and strap hidden beneath it. The pouch illustrated on the Gulbishe giant, like the one found at Birka is more directly kin to the Khazar originals with multiple small decorations, the belt strap over the flap, and a cutout in the flap for a braket to hold the strap (clearly a closer relative to the 8th century example discussed here http://www.reocities.com/normanjfin/belts/rmnvsky.html ).
In all Kiev and Chernigov were born directly in the lands of the Khazars and from a cultural synthesis between these local Turkic peoples and the Scandinavian newcomers. There is no reason to involve the Magyars except as a cultural analog from further away which may possibly fill holes in the record.

[VikingofKiev]

For the discussion on the old russian forum on the lack of the kaftan sleeves) see here (it's in Russian):

http://tgorod.go.ru/cgi-bin/board/topic ... &topic=411

All the later time discussions concerning this matter lead to this link. The man who consulted the artist Oleg Fiodorov replies.

As far as I know - literally nothing had preserved of the kaftan in the Gulbishche burial with exception of fasteners and laces which are interpreted ambiguously.

The common opinion is that there are very few finds of clothes of the period which preserved in good condition so all the reconstructions are to great extent hypothetical.

Later on tarsolys.

[AriAnson]

Ooh! I'm very interested in the tarsoly discussion. Not to derail the thread, but I made a few semi-recreations of them and didn't have as much information of construction as I would have liked. Comments? Criticisms? Information?





How were the front-plates attached? Seperate rivets?
How thick were they from front to back?
I've figured out that they seem to be attached without traditional belt loops. I've had trouble figuring out how the belt is attached on the Birka-style pouches that clasp on the front.

[VikingofKiev]

Quote:
As for the belt purses of the type - it seems to have originated among the 10c. Magyar (the Hungarian) and spread from there to the lands far away.


With this I must strongly disagree. The Magyars migrated west in the 9-10th century (largely moving to independance from vassalage to the Khazar empire in Ukraine/ Caucas) bringing with them a version of the Turkic fashions which had long been in place in the lands of their origin. Their belt decorations show a clear afinity to the Khazar model - either descending from it or a joint ancestor. Likewise, contrary to what you seem to assert, the pouches to the east of Hungary are not Magyar exports -- they are the originals from these lands - Khazar, Alan ..etc. If anything - they are progenitors of the Magyar type. However, the Magyar pouches, while similar to those Eastern cousins, developed their own distinctive form - with the single large plate cover and strap hidden beneath it. The pouch illustrated on the Gulbishe giant, like the one found at Birka is more directly kin to the Khazar originals with multiple small decorations, the belt strap over the flap, and a cutout in the flap for a braket to hold the strap (clearly a closer relative to the 8th century example discussed here http://www.reocities.com/normanjfin/belts/rmnvsky.html ).

Well, I would say your opinion is worth thinking over since none seems to have made a comprehensive research of this subject.
I would point out a couple of things: indeed, the Magyar are known to have found lots of single plates for tarsolys. It is evident that they really had developed their own style of decoration since the finds of this type artifacts are most numerous in Hungary. However, the separate cast mounts are as well present there along with the plates. You may see them (and read what Hungarian scientists write about) here on the site I already mentioned above.
To add more on this, this type pouches (3 in number) with single plate were found in the tribe of Mordva burials (Russia, Tambov region, to the south east from Moscow) - very detailed description of them is given here (in Russian). One very similar pouch was found in Birka (burial #819, here). Another one was found in a cheremis burial tho the east of Moscow in the Republic of Mary-El. It is presented on the hungarian site here.

If the pouches of this type did not appear from the Magyar they might have been possibly popularized after them due to evident sophistication and beauty of their pieces. However, these pouches are strongly associated with the Magyar among russian speaking reenactors.

In all Kiev and Chernigov were born directly in the lands of the Khazars and from a cultural synthesis between these local Turkic peoples and the Scandinavian newcomers. There is no reason to involve the Magyars except as a cultural analog from further away which may possibly fill holes in the record.

Do you absolutely exclude the Slavic population of the region ?

[VikingofKiev]

Ooh! I'm very interested in the tarsoly discussion. Not to derail the thread, but I made a few semi-recreations of them and didn't have as much information of construction as I would have liked. Comments? Criticisms? Information?

How were the front-plates attached? Seperate rivets?
How thick were they from front to back?
I've figured out that they seem to be attached without traditional belt loops. I've had trouble figuring out how the belt is attached on the Birka-style pouches that clasp on the front.

I suspect this topic deserves a separate thread.

The staple site for all tarsoly-addicts is this: http://www.tarsolyosok.hu/
From there you can see the way to attach the plates. Usually it is rivets around the plate. The cast mounts normally had pins on the back side which were inserted in the holes on the flap and then bent down.

The construction of the holding strap is unclear as usually only metal parts survive. It means that we do not know for sure what was the way to make the body of a tarsoly as well as how to make the holding strap. The common way is to sew it on the upper back side of the body, then make a loop for belt with the help of one of this small fastening strap mounts or with a special wire bracket or by sewing. The rest of the strap hangs down and is used to fasten the flap. What I mean may be seen here.

As far as I know the most common way to hang a tarsoly on belt concerns one strap. There is a rare exception from the Rus burial at Shestovitsa by the town of Chernigov in Ukraine.


Again, since the leather part usually completely decays in the burials lots of versions may be invented on the matter how the body of the pouch might have looked like.

The only well preserved leather tarsolys known to me are the ones from mordva burials in central Russia. Look for pictures here.
From their description is seen that these pouches were not thick - two body parts were sewn together with a ~1 cm wide strap between them and then turned inside out. Despite all this most of the makers in Russia and Ukraine make tarsoly body just like I see on your pictures, i.e. without turning it inside out.

As I am a maker myself you may see my recreations here on the site:
http://armourandcastings.com/index.php? ... &Submit=Go

[Halbrust]

How large are these pouches?

I can ask of this one from Armour and Casting in particular, or as a generalization?
I'm guessing around 6" across the top. Is that in the right?

[Norman]

For the discussion on the old russian forum on the lack of the kaftan sleeves) see here (it's in Russian):
http://tgorod.go.ru/cgi-bin/board/topic ... &topic=411

GRR The old forum gets blocked at work. Now I had to open the computer at home.
Oh well.
Thanks for the pointer. But there was nothing contrary to how it was expanded elsewhere and as I presented it here.
To whit:
"Реконструкция «безрукого» кафтана основана на упоминании Константином Багрянородным кафтанов печенегов, часть из которых в знак оторванности от Родины носила кафтаны с оторванными рукавами."
"reconstruction of a 'sleeveless' kaftan is based on the mention by Constantine Bagryanorodniy of the kaftans worn by Pechenegs, some of whom ripped off the sleeves of the kaftans as a mark of being torn away from their homeland."
ie: any actual sleeveless kaftans were a specific political comment -- a ... passive mode of rebelion. Certainly the opposite of our warrior giant's political position.
"Меховая подпушка кафтанов известна по материалам Мощевой балки + изображении болгар на миниатюре 11 века"
"fur lining of kaftans is known from the Moschevaya Balka materials and the illustrations of Bulgars in 11 century miniature"
ie: the long sleeved kaftans I mentioned earlier.
At the end, to the specific question of whether he has ever seen anything more directly like the reconstruction, Sergei Kainov responds "Ты имеешь в виду безрукавки? Я не видел..." "Do you mean vests? I have never seen..."
The later discussions expand along the same lines.

The common opinion is that there are very few finds of clothes of the period which preserved in good condition so all the reconstructions are to great extent hypothetical.

And the sleeveless in this case is ... less than hypothetical.
The fact is that there are finds of coats as well as artistic representations and descriptions.
There is no reasonable hypothesis for the sleeveless shuba represented except as proposed in the later conversations that the artist was trying to show the mail underneath the coat.
And it totaly looks badass -- and thats a strong temptation for an artist.

[AriAnson]

How large are these pouches?

I can ask of this one from Armour and Casting in particular, or as a generalization?
I'm guessing around 6" across the top. Is that in the right?

11-12cm = 4-5 inches

[VikingofKiev]

To Halbrust and AriAnson:

This pouch (Tarsoly from Chernigov) was made by myself, it's size 6 x 6 inches (body).
http://armourandcastings.com/index.php? ... ductId=238

The average size may vary from 3.5' (Birka #819) to 6' (some Magyar plates).

The picture of the pouch from Birka (stored in the Swedish History Museum) given above, as far as I know, is the
one of interpretations of how the cast pieces found in groups might have been placed on the flap.
Another one is here but in all it seems to be doubtful since it's size is about 9 inches with only one holding strap.

[James B.]

The one issue I have with reenactor versions of these pouches are the side walls to give it thickness. I don't know of any historical examples of a purse with a side wall, they are all flat like a modern day wallet.

Sure they are examples of large bags (Roman era), sacks/bags for books, and leather cases with side walls but they are not used as a belt purse.

Where I to spend the money for the castings to make one of these purses I would build it flat like all the medieval purse finds. I would do the same if I made a Sutton Hoo purse.

[VikingofKiev]

The one issue I have with reenactor versions of these pouches are the side walls to give it thickness. I don't know of any historical examples of a purse with a side wall, they are all flat like a modern day wallet.

Sure they are examples of large bags (Roman era), sacks/bags for books, and leather cases with side walls but they are not used as a belt purse.

Where I to spend the money for the castings to make one of these purses I would build it flat like all the medieval purse finds. I would do the same if I made a Sutton Hoo purse.

There is an example of preserved side wall in this type pouch. I have already given the link above though many might not make it out what is what as everything is in Russian there. 3(!) tarsoly pouches with well preserved leather parts were found in central Russia, Tambov region, in the Mordovian burials of 8-11cc..
Here is the link:
http://south-rus.org/forum/viewtopic.ph ... t=25#p4206

You may see the separate picture of this side wall here:
http://radikal.ru/F/s59.radikal.ru/i165 ... a.jpg.html
Anyway, this side wall strap is very thin - 7-8 mm. The pouch was sewn together and then turned inside out just as later medieval examples.

[James B.]

I don't see it; I wish the images were larger.

[VikingofKiev]

I don't see it; I wish the images were larger.

It is there, just look thoroughly.
We must be happy to have this knowledge at all 'couse these items are stored in a museum of a very provincial town hidden in store-rooms. A historian went there on purpose to examine and to describe the artifacts which are inaccessible for common folk. He described all very thoroughly. Here is the abstract about this wall strap:

"Третий кусок кожи в виде длинной полосы шириной около 7-8 мм (не считая подгиба кожи на шов) вшит между передней и задней половинами сумочки, проходя по всему периметру, конечно, кроме прямого верхнего края передней половины. Очевидно, что он предназначен для увеличения полезного объёма. Все три куска кожи сшиты между собой выворотным швом."

translation:
...The third piece of leather is strap shaped, 7-8 mm wide (without stitch area on the edges). It is sewn between the front and the back sides of the pouch going along the whole perimeter excepting the upper edge.This strap is evidently designed to enhance the capacity of the pouch. All the three pieces are sewn together with inserted seam.

[James B.]

So it is about a quarter of an inch thick; good to know.

[AriAnson]

Is the seam on the inside or outside?

[VikingofKiev]

Is the seam on the inside or outside?

On the inside.

[James B.]

VikingofKiev is there any info on the thickness of the leather? I suspect it is 1-2mm like most finds but any official info would be great. Another bad habit reenactors have is using too thick a leather for bags.

[VikingofKiev]

VikingofKiev is there any info on the thickness of the leather? I suspect it is 1-2mm like most finds but any official info would be great. Another bad habit reenactors have is using too thick a leather for bags.

I have not found specific mentions on the thickness of the leather in the description of this pouch. From the pictures it seems to be thin enough and, taking into account that leather shrinks with time in earth, I suppose that it is just as you have said - no more than 1-2 mm. Actually, the leather must have been flexible enough be turned inside out when sewn together as the making method supposed (the same as for the most of the later time european pouches).
An interesting feature of this pouch is that the flap of it was made of two layers of textile to which a silver plate (of "magyar" type) was attached. the textile was completely hidden under the plate. The rest of the pouch was of leather.

[James B.]

VikingofKiev thanks that is what I suspected; this has been a most informative thread.

[Laurie Wise]

Thanks for the SouthRus link too!

[VikingofKiev]

To return the thread to the right rails I would like to get back to the Early Rus burials.
Below is the translated abstract about Chernaya Mogila burial from this page http://dom-np.narod.ru/rekon/black2.html
(although Norman gave right tips on its contents).


"In 1872-73 archeologist D.Samokvasov excavated a great mound within the town of Chernigov named Chiornaya Mogila (Black Grave) which contained a burial with numerous warrior's equipment pieces. Two helmets, two chain-mails, two swords, a sabre, about a dozen of spears, arrowheads, an ax, stirrup, bridle-bits - this all allowed for the first time to unveil what the full battle kit of a highborn warrior looked like at the time of Ancient Rus state formation.

The burial is dated late 10c. which was the time just before the baptizm or Rus. Two warriors were buried in the burial one being of very young, near juvenile age. The size of the mound as well as the number of the found armament give evidence of high rank of the buried. A figurine of Thor found in the burial may indicate their Scandinavian or Baltic origin.

Only one of the found helmets survived to this time. It has speroconical shape riveted of four iron parts - the back and the front ones overlap the side ones and have waved edges, a rivet being in the center of each wave. All the four parts of the helm are covered with copper sheet. A four-cornered rosette with a pike is riveted to each side piece. There are three figured stripes on the forehead piece, the central one might possibly have extended down as nasal which did not preserve to our time.
On the joints of the helm parts, around the side rosettes and the forehead trident goes a gilt copper edging stripe with double row of small knobs. Despite the plumes drawn on Nikolay Zubkov's reconstruction (on the left), there is no plume holder on the helmet from the burial stored within the exposition of the Government History Museum in Moscow. from this point of view the work of Oleg Fiodorov is more reliable. The helmet had an iron stripe on the bottom edge to attach a chain mail.

This type helmets were widespread in 10-11cc. They are known from findings in Poland, Eastern Prussia, Hungary and were frequently found
on the territory of Ancient Rus. They are definitely of the eastern origin that is proven by the findings in the village of Maslovka burial which was possibly an ancient Magyar's one and by the findings from the mound of Karachayevo in Bashkortostan, Russia.

The mails of the Chornaya Mogila had merged into one piece and it is hardly possible to define their pattern. It was probably a common one for the period - without collar, having a short vent on the chest, with shortened sleeves (to elbows), whole mail reaching the mid haunches.
Some copper rings may be seen within the structure of the mail - this is decorative edging well known after other well preserved mail pieces of later period.
Chain-mail as any other armor was worn over a dense wadded jacket which was called "podklad" (literally "a thing to be laid under").

The shields may be restored on the base of numerous analogues. The period shield were mostly of round shape, one meter in diameter. They were maid of wooden planks and covered with leather. A round hole
was cut in the center of the shield to be covered with umbo riveted onto. A wooden or metal bar was attached on the inner side to hold the shield.

The Rus warrior's battle kit of the 10c. had merged the battle traditions of the East and West. For instance, the design of the
sword hilt, the guard bar bent to the point of the blade says that the warrior used sabre technique. The swords found within the mass of the weapon are related to the karoling type which is known all around the Europe, from Spain to Ural. The hilts of the both swords are luxuriously decorated: the first one's hilt is silver-enchiseled, the second one's is of gilt silver with engraved patterns. The swords were worn inside wooden scabbard covered with leather with a chape with bossed design.

About a dozen of spear heads were found in the Burial. Quite large (lance-shaped, lozenge in section) one is present on the reconstruction above.

Of the horse harness of the burial only the bridle-bit and stirrup preserved. So, close analogues of the period (from Gayevka and Gnezdovo mounds) were used in the reconstruction by Nikolay Zubkov."



All dug out stuff is now stored in the Government History Museum. If you want to see what it looks like go here: http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php? ... i&img=6958
(go down the page for the pic thumbnails).

Since the working over the found materials is going quite slowly some new results may appear much later. This is just the case and the information given above is now a bit out of date.

[Norman]

... There are three figured stripes on the forehead piece, the central one might possibly have extended down as nasal which did not preserve to our time.
...

Since the working over the found materials is going quite slowly some new results may appear much later. This is just the case and the information given above is now a bit out of date.

I believe that at this time they have fairly well confirmed that this helmet never had a nasal (as seems to be the case of many "Khazarian" or "Alanian" type helmets)

[VikingofKiev]

... There are three figured stripes on the forehead piece, the central one might possibly have extended down as nasal which did not preserve to our time.
...

Since the working over the found materials is going quite slowly some new results may appear much later. This is just the case and the information given above is now a bit out of date.

I believe that at this time they have fairly well confirmed that this helmet never had a nasal (as seems to be the case of many "Khazarian" or "Alanian" type helmets)

Right again, а couple of weeks ago the helms from CM and Gnezdovo were taken to restoration, or clearing, to be correct, to remove the layers of rust, dirt and so on which cover them since the time of finding. NO nasal but lots of interesting details. There are the pictures of the cleared CM helm on the present stage of work below:



very big pic
here



very big pic here

[Halbrust]

Selfish bumb because I search for this thread fairly often and it's harder to find when the newest post is 10 months ago.

[VikingofKiev]

Selfish bumb because I search for this thread fairly often and it's harder to find when the newest post is 10 months ago.

Wonder what's that you are particularly interested in in is thread:)?

[Russ Mitchell]

As far as I know the most common way to hang a tarsoly on belt concerns one strap. There is a rare exception from the Rus burial at Shestovitsa by the town of Chernigov in Ukraine.

And here it gets messy. I'm *very* late to this thread and will need to go back from the top to review, but there were strong trade routes going through this region, and a Magyar population in Chernigov (assimilated though apparently distinct in some senses, sort of like ethnic neighborhoods in Chicago).

While I'm generally with Norman, there's enough weirdness and synthesis going on culturally that I'd be very loathe to make any "this must have belonged to X" pronouncements unless I had specific data saying so.

[Russ Mitchell]

Oh, it's this thread again! Heh.

Norman, the reference you're looking for re: Chernigov is in Dimnik's Dynasty of Chernigov -- I'll try to remember to look you up a block-quote when I get home.

Think I'm going to have to make myself a pair of those sweet boots, though.

[Halbrust]

Selfish bumb because I search for this thread fairly often and it's harder to find when the newest post is 10 months ago.

Wonder what's that you are particularly interested in in is thread:)?

The info, the pictures, the links, the disagreements...

This thread is my starting point for when am trying to find new info for 10th century Russia, or to re=look and drool over the things I've already seen.

[Norman]

As far as I know the most common way to hang a tarsoly on belt concerns one strap. There is a rare exception from the Rus burial at Shestovitsa by the town of Chernigov in Ukraine.

The Sarkel belt furniture indicates two straps as well.
http://www.reocities.com/normanjfin/belts/sarkel.html

While I'm generally with Norman, there's enough weirdness and synthesis going on culturally that I'd be very loathe to make any "this must have belonged to X" pronouncements unless I had specific data saying so.

Its been too long, so I don't remember what I wrote that you are reacting to -- but I think I agree with you. I'm full of it.