The Armour Archive

In one of the threads, I was asked to give more info on a burial in Ukraine.
I thought, rather than bury this on the bottom of a thread -- give it a new one and expand a bit. So --

Here are three 10th centruy burials of great importance for early "Rus" reenactment.
Two are in the area of Chernigov - the chief competitor with Kiev for the control of the Rus city states
The third is in Gnesdovo - a village near the city of Smolensk (and may be the original location of that city) - on the river Dnepr, it is a major center on the route "from the Varyags to the Greeks" (the river route the Scandinavians took to Byzantium)

It must be remembered that these are cremation burials so take that into consideration as you look at the reconstructions (of course, the artists are drawing upon a substantial set of external knowledge to suplement their understanding of the finds).
We have a very good description of the rites involved in the travelogue of Ibn Fadlan http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ibn_fdln.shtml - the major difference is that Ibn Fadlan's Rus was "buried" on a boat while these are in burial mounds. It has been proposed that the reason for the boat is that the man was away from home at the time.

Black Burial (Chernaya Mogila) in Chernigov - late 10th century burial, discovered 1873
Two noblemen - a youth and an old man
buried with a woman (compare Ibn Fadlan)
there is a figurine of the god Tor
The artifacts were a combination of Scandinavian and Turkic - the merging is described by scholars as the origins of a "Russian" style
Two helmets were found of identical design but one more well decorated - covered completely in brass. Only this second one has survived till today. The helmets are very much of a Turkic style and identical to others found in Ukraine, Poland and Hungary (thus proposed as probably coming from one, likely Khazar armoury).
The mail shirts have melted into a mass so the reconstructions are theoretical (based on analogues from elsewhere) there were brass rings in the mail (presumably decorative borders). The shield in the illustration is completely assumed.
There are ten spears, two swords and one saber.
http://dom-np.narod.ru/rekon/black2.html

Gulbishe, Chernigov mid 10th century, discovered 1872
WARNING -- the "sleeveless" coat was only drawn that way to show the mail coat underneath -- It actualy is supposed to have FULL SLEEVES
This is the often discussed giant warrior. The body was not available to measure (burnt) but the helmet and stirrups were of extreme size (I have not found the dimensions) and the sword was the largest Scandinavian type sword ever found - at 126 centimeters (compared to an average of 96). The helmet, belt, pouch, axe are all of Turkic (Khazarian) type.
http://dom-np.narod.ru/rekon/gulbishe2.html

Gnezdovo, Smolensk - 10th centruy, discovered 1901
Two burials.
One is almost fully Scandinavian - except the belt - in "Turkic" style with a Scandinavian buckle and Volga Bulgar plates.
The other is pretty much fully Turkic (Khazar).
http://dom-np.narod.ru/rekon/gnezdovo2.html

You sure we can't find a citation for the no sleeves thing? Cause that guy looks pretty sweet.

Mikhail_Voronov wrote:You sure we can't find a citation for the no sleeves thing? Cause that guy looks pretty sweet.

I am sure that in this particular case the artist wanted to show the mail underneath the coat though he understood the coat to be long sleeved.

I make no assertion about any other possible cases out in the universe.

Norman wrote:

Mikhail_Voronov wrote:You sure we can't find a citation for the no sleeves thing? Cause that guy looks pretty sweet.

I am sure that in this particular case the artist wanted to show the mail underneath the coat though he understood the coat to be long sleeved.

I make no assertion about any other possible cases out in the universe.

"Because you know I'ld rather look good, than be historically accurate, and I look Mahvahlous."


Sorry just had that running through my head for a bit.



But thanks for the links they're a big help to me personally. And fascinating to see the blend of turkic and norse styles.

Norman wrote:Gulbishe, Chernigov mid 10th century, discovered 1872
WARNING -- the "sleeveless" coat was only drawn that way to show the mail coat underneath -- It actualy is supposed to have FULL SLEEVES
This is the often discussed giant warrior. The body was not available to measure (burnt) but the helmet and stirrups were of extreme size (I have not found the dimensions) and the sword was the largest Scandinavian type sword ever found - at 126 centimeters (compared to an average of 96). The helmet, belt, pouch, axe are all of Turkic (Khazarian) type.
http://dom-np.narod.ru/rekon/gulbishe2.html

I have a few questions in regard to this site.

It lists the man as almost 2 meters (correct?) that's basically 6'6", while 6'6" is big it isn't the monster I imagined. Looking back at a thread here on the AA it seems most believe the average heights to be fairly similar to today. Am I mising something?

What kind/type of sack or pouch did he have? I can't find a translation that is making it clear.

Is Russian linguistically similar to Spanish? A Russian to English translation is rough at best. While a Russian to Spanish to English translation is much much easier to read.

Halbrust wrote:

Norman wrote:Gulbishe, Chernigov mid 10th century, discovered 1872
WARNING -- the "sleeveless" coat was only drawn that way to show the mail coat underneath -- It actualy is supposed to have FULL SLEEVES
This is the often discussed giant warrior. The body was not available to measure (burnt) but the helmet and stirrups were of extreme size (I have not found the dimensions) and the sword was the largest Scandinavian type sword ever found - at 126 centimeters (compared to an average of 96). The helmet, belt, pouch, axe are all of Turkic (Khazarian) type.
http://dom-np.narod.ru/rekon/gulbishe2.html

I have a few questions in regard to this site.
It lists the man as almost 2 meters (correct?) that's basically 6'6", while 6'6" is big it isn't the monster I imagined. Looking back at a thread here on the AA it seems most believe the average heights to be fairly similar to today. Am I mising something?

First thing to note is that we do not have a well-preserved body - he was ritualy burnt. The assumption of size is based on the gear.
The only definite number we have is that the sword is 1.3 times the size of normal (they just say "huge helmet and stirrups") therefore the assumption, I suppose can be is that the guy was roughly 1.3 times normal size.
So - if this is exact and the average height is assumed to be aprox 5'-9" that is 5.75 x 1.3 = 7.475
Just shy of 7 and a half feet
(though I would go shorter in Russia - average as 5'-7" - giving his height if exact at 87.1" or 7'-3.1")
If the authors assumed him to be 2 meters, presumably their assumption of average height was 1.538 meters or 5.04 feet - which seems wrong.
It could be that they thought of 2 meters as a nice round pretty-darned-tall reasonable aproximation -- but it can well be aproximated as quite taller than that.
I think all in all 7' is a reasonable aproximation - maybe he liked a slightly bigger sword than others.

What kind/type of sack or pouch did he have?

By pouch, I mean the one at his belt, it is the same as illustrated for the second Gnezdovo set here: http://dom-np.narod.ru/rekon/gnezdovo2.html
This is the Khazar style of belt pouch. Very similar to the Hungarian (but they put a solid plate on the cover, while the Khazar does not).
One like this was found at Birka as well
I had pictures on the Red Kaganate site - but it was hosted at Yahoo so will have to wait till I get a chance to put it back up.

Is Russian linguistically similar to Spanish? A Russian to English translation is rough at best. While a Russian to Spanish to English translation is much much easier to read.

Russian is a Slavic language. Spanish is a Romance language (like latin and French). English is a very close relative to French hence far easier to translate. Russian is very far away linguisticaly.
and online translators suck.
If you auto translate Russian to Spanish, the machine makes guesses in going from R to S. Then when you go from SPanish to English, there are less guesses - so the final result is smoother - but the translation is a second step removed.
It reads cleaner but chances are it is actualy far more nonsensical.
Sorry - you'll just have to ask me questions

Norman, have you found any new "homes" for your GeoCities websites yet?

I have a home at
www.srdarts.com

I just haven't had the time/energy to put everything back together.

I have noted however that www.archive.org has done a good job of having most of my stuff still in place.

There is also the site Reocities.com which made an attempt to preserve all of Geocities just a week before it went down.

http://www.reocities.com/jewishwarriors/ works but http://www.reocities.com/normlaw/ doesn't.

All I can say is "WOW". Just came from reviewing "ReoCities" and laud the effort they are making! Maybe, I can still recover my previously "lost" resource sites.

Thanks for the tip, Josh K!

Wasn't the chernaya mogila within the "hungarian district" in Chernigov? Not that this makes a huge difference, as those guys were tied directly into the power structure, but I'm trying real hard to remember...

Russ Mitchell wrote:Wasn't the chernaya mogila within the "hungarian district" in Chernigov? Not that this makes a huge difference, as those guys were tied directly into the power structure, but I'm trying real hard to remember...

I have seen nothing like this.
Articles which discussed the "ethnicity" of the finds discuss these as early examples of a new "Russian" ethnicity - which merges Scandinavian, Slavic, and Turkic cultures. There is no mention of anything Magyar and my understanding is that under Turkic, they mean the Saltovo-Mayakovsky / Khazarian culture.
An article that discussed the specific location noted that the Kurgan complexes were created in connection to Temple sites (which were later replaced by analogous churches).
And these definitely do seem to be "power structure" Kurgans -- Rus power structure, and Chernaya Mogila was mentioned as the burial of not just any random nobleman but a Knyaz (aprox.=king)

Josh K wrote:There is also the site Reocities.com which made an attempt to preserve all of Geocities just a week before it went down.

http://www.reocities.com/jewishwarriors/ works but http://www.reocities.com/normlaw/ doesn't.

Thanks for letting me know about reocities
Yeah "normlaw" doesn't exist because Yahoo killed it a few months before the rest of geocities

Norman wrote:Gulbishe, Chernigov mid 10th century, discovered 1872
WARNING -- the "sleeveless" coat was only drawn that way to show the mail coat underneath -- It actualy is supposed to have FULL SLEEVES
This is the often discussed giant warrior. The body was not available to measure (burnt) but the helmet and stirrups were of extreme size (I have not found the dimensions) and the sword was the largest Scandinavian type sword ever found - at 126 centimeters (compared to an average of 96). The helmet, belt, pouch, axe are all of Turkic (Khazarian) type.
http://dom-np.narod.ru/rekon/gulbishe2.html

Are there pictures of these actual items available on the net?
I assume the surviving pieces are in a Russian museum somewhere.

The materials from Gulbishe, I beleive are in GYM (government history museum in Moscow)
Here's what I quickly found on the net --
(I'll dig some more after the weekend)
Helmet number 2 on this picture is from Gulbishe - it is essentialy the same design as the ones from Chernaya Mogila just a bit more simple - what Russians call "Chernigov" style and what some folks on the archive call "Great Polish".
http://annals.xlegio.ru/rus/weapon/helmets02.jpg
Tip in middle and sword at right are from Gulbishe
http://historic.ru/books/item/f00/s00/z ... 000073.jpg

Isn't there a good description from Ibn Fadlan (Not Antonio Banderas) of a Rus burial more or less in that age?


ONLINE!! I LUV the INternets!!
http://www.uib.no/jais/v003ht/03-001-025Montgom1.htm


[14] In the case of a poor man[42] they build a small boat, place him inside and burn it. In the case of a rich man, they gather together his possessions and divide them into three, one third for his family, one third to use for <his> garments,[43] and one third with which they purchase[44] alcohol which they drink on the day when his slave-girl kills herself[45] and is cremated together with her master.[46] (They are addicted to alcohol, which they drink night and day. Sometimes one of them dies with the cup still in his hand.)[47]

When their chieftain dies, his family ask his slave-girls and slave-boys, “Who among you will die with him?â€

Norman wrote:

Mikhail_Voronov wrote:You sure we can't find a citation for the no sleeves thing? Cause that guy looks pretty sweet.

I am sure that in this particular case the artist wanted to show the mail underneath the coat though he understood the coat to be long sleeved.

I make no assertion about any other possible cases out in the universe.

I found a referrence to a kapaniçe and that it is a sleeveless, fur lined, wide collared, garmet.

Tried doing some more research and none of them are in English so I'm having a hard time at it. I'm now finding referrences of it being sleevless as well as long sleeved.

Norman, can you use your Russian magic and help me out here?

Halbrust wrote:

Norman wrote: I found a referrence to a kapaniçe and that it is a sleeveless, fur lined, wide collared, garmet.
Tried doing some more research and none of them are in English so I'm having a hard time at it. I'm now finding referrences of it being sleevless as well as long sleeved.
Norman, can you use your Russian magic and help me out here?

That is not a Russian word and is not a word I recognise.
There is a Mongol "tabard" (ie: a garment worn over armour to provide a heraldic identifier) which is a sleeveless long vest -- but this is a light garment for color rather than warmth - and the Mongol invasion is far later.
There is also a Russian fashion (which again comes far later) which is likely copied from the Persian, of having an outer coat with very long sleeves which are slit -- so you can stick your hands through the slits providing a short sleeve effect.
Here is a Persian miniature (from 1532) with most of the folks wearing these (note the buttons on the upper arm and the long dangling sleeves at the underarm)

Russian equivalents
http://www.emc.komi.com/02/01/img/018.jpg
http://www.belygorod.ru/img2/Solncev/Us ... 16_17v.jpg
http://his.1september.ru/2009/14/12-1.jpg
Actualy, while looking to illustrate the above fashion, I did see a few furs with short or no sleeves -- but again these are either LATE or POST-period
http://www.classicbelt.ru/images/belts_ ... ze/502.jpg
http://bibliotekar.ru/rusKart/4.htm
http://www.belygorod.ru/img2/Solncev/Us ... rs17_v.jpg

In fact -- as a Russian artists' language -- any art representing pre-Mongol times would never have anything like this sort of coat. They are represented for anything 16th cent or later.

Thank you very much Norman!
If that's not a Russian word, I wonder what language it is? The c with a tail made me think Russian.

Apparently it's a Turkish word...

Russain uses a totaly different alphabet - so when things get transliterated into English, they tend to be normal letters.

Romanian uses a c with a curleycue underneath. I think Hungarian does as well.
Yes, I suppose so does Turkish.

The word does have some sort of slavic sound to it though.
Are you sure its Turkish? Did you get a meaning?

I did notice that the 16th century Russian fur coats with the split sleeves are sometimes called a Turkish coat.

"kapaniçe" I guess is the origin of the modern word Chapan and Caftan. I have a friend who collects Eastern European and Central Asian Chapans and other coats and it is amazing how little they have changed from those in that image. He posts on this forum as Florien.

"Chapan (variant of caftan) is a coat worn over clothes, usually during the cold winter months. Usually worn by men, these coats are adorned with intricate threading and come in a variety of colors and patterns. It is worn in Central Asia, including Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and other surrounding countries. Outside of Afghanistan, readers may be familiar with the chapan cape often worn by Afghan president Hamid Karzai."

Dragon_Argent wrote:"kapaniçe" I guess is the origin of the modern word Chapan and Caftan.

Why do you think Chapan and Caftan are modern words?
Why do you think kapaniçe is any older than the other two?

Good question Norman, I hope to hear a responce.

I did not get a definition yet. Saw a referrence saying it's Turkish is all.

Norman wrote:

Dragon_Argent wrote:"kapaniçe" I guess is the origin of the modern word Chapan and Caftan.

Why do you think Chapan and Caftan are modern words?
Why do you think kapaniçe is any older than the other two?

They are "modern" in that they are the words we use to describe the garments in modern English. - Just a context thing - Also - though they may be just as old I SUSPECT they are derived from "kapaniçe" as the origin... Essentialy kapaniçe and Chapan are the same word.

Dragon_Argent wrote:

Norman wrote:

Dragon_Argent wrote:"kapaniçe" I guess is the origin of the modern word Chapan and Caftan.

Why do you think Chapan and Caftan are modern words?
Why do you think kapaniçe is any older than the other two?

They are "modern" in that they are the words we use to describe the garments in modern English.

They are foreign words that English just happens to be using --
Chapan is Afghani (and maybe Kazakh?)
Kaftan is Russian (and ...whoever else ...Bulgar?)
The only reason that "kapaniçe" is not used is solely the coincidence of who the English ran into first (did anyone mention whether this is Turkish or Hungarian or Romanian?)
It is obvious that all three are similar but could well be independent versions from different streams of the Turkic language stream (or all may derive from some other common ancestor) ...or the Russian or Afghani word may actualy be older (in Russian, the Turkish words are "native" - they were built into the birth of the language, coming from the time of the Gok Turks and Khazars -- generations before Osman was a gleam in his daddy's eye and at least a generation before Seljuk came)

Other words for similar garments: Halat, Dhel, Degel, Svita, Zippun
(I'm actualy not certain that the last set of Russian garments are technicaly called Kaftan but have other specific titles)

There is an unfortunate tendency in online forums for us to talk out of our ...
So - I cut all the theorising and tried google.


Based on my Russian, I'd guessed that if the word is Slavic, the "che" ending would mean "big" -- basicaly if it was Russian "Kapanishe" would mean "Great Kapan" - presuming that Kapan = Kaftan --> "Great Kaftan"
The word is indeed Turkish and it looks like Turkish has the same structure for the ending as Russian
To whit:

from http://www.turkishculture.org/pages.php ... ildID1=802
note first that this site clearly differentiates kaftan and kapanice
(I decided to keep a bit more than necessary -- because it was interesting

Fabrics constituted an indispensable element of Ottoman ceremonial: ... ‘robe of honor’ (hil’at) bestowed on court servants and foreign diplomats, they were unmistakable signifiers of the sultan’s power and generosity ...The ceremonial kaftans and other garments in the collection of the Topkapı Palace...

The accession of sultans
For the successor to the Ottoman throne, the events of the funeral of his predecessor ... After death ...The turban and one of his kaftans would be placed on top of the sarcophagus (sanduka) ...A miniature painting ...show coffins and sandukas of sultans and princes with kaftans draped over them. All garments preserved in the Topkapı collections that are labeled as having been worn by sultans for the funerals of their predecessors and their own accessions are made of satin fabric (atlas) or mohair (sof). ...

Parades and receptions

It was the custom for the sultan to attend the Friday noonday prayer service, ...It is recorded that Turkish sultan wore a fur lined robe of seraser and ornamented his turban decorated with jewels. ... The occasion of a prince’s circumcision ...The sultan also awarded hil’at robes and other textile gifts to higher ranking participants in the celebrations, including the surgeon who had circumcised the prince ...

The Sultan dressed for war

There was little to distinguish the military attire of the sultan from his civilian wardrobe, apart from plate or mail armors that was concealed by or integrated with the garments. ... the sleeveless, fur-lined, full collared ceremonial garment known as a kapaniçe. The fur lining is likely to have been sable, the most highly valued of the era, or lynx, and this visible cloth was also of the highest quality. ...armored kaftans ...Mail kaftans and shirts were worn with full trousers (şalvar).

This is from the French version of the Turkish govt tourism website. I did not find the word in the English articles.
Great site BTW - definitely worth reading
http://www.kultur.gov.tr/FR/Genel/Belge ... 9F133C5010
"représenter l'exemple d'une sorte de vêtement extérieur, appelé «kapaniçe» dans certaines sources."
Just enough for my High School French skills. It means "represents an example of one type of outer garment, called «kapaniçe» in some sources".

This is a Polish blog with some English.
http://dariocaballeros.blogspot.com/
Unfortunately our quote is in Polish
"janczary nosili kapanice jako rodzaj plaszcza, a pod tym nosili dolama lub kaftan, obydwa mialy dlugie rekawy i byly duzsze lub krotsze, zaleznie od mody. Dolama i kaftan mogly byc noszone same, bez kapanice."
I don't have much Polish but can read most of this. It means:
The Janisaries wore kapanice which is a kind of Trenchcoat, and under that they wore dolama [not sure] kaftan ...[not sure ... something "based on fashion"...] Dolama and kaftan could be worn alone, without kapanice.
(dolama, aside from being a variant pronounciation of "dolma" - stuffed grapeleaves, is an embroidered jacket)

LOL!!! I REALLY was not being specific when I made that statement! You guys are SO literal! My point was that Chapan and Kaftan are known terms by many people today where as kapanice is no so much...
I agree though that they could easily be all derived from a common Turkic root word...
You guys crack me up.....

Norman, or anyone else...

The boots here look wrong. Am I wrong?
http://dom-np.narod.ru/rekon/gulbishe2.html

Halbrust wrote:The boots here look wrong. Am I wrong?
http://dom-np.narod.ru/rekon/gulbishe2.html

What do you think is wrong with the boots?

For comparison, here is a boot from Novgorod, I think 11th cent.

Nothing now that you show me that picture

I did not know of "vikings" actually wearing tall boots. I thought that was fantasy and all the actual boots were ankle boots.

Those boots are amazingly well preserved! - they are also very cool!
Do you know how/where/in what they were found?

Halbrust wrote:Nothing now that you show me that picture
I did not know of "vikings" actually wearing tall boots. I thought that was fantasy and all the actual boots were ankle boots.

NOT Viking - Russian. Important distinction - its the merging of the various cultures.
The boots are realy far more typical for a horse riding people (ie: the various Turkic/ Persian/ Hun peoples) and I believe the percentage of boots vs shoes in Russian finds IS quite small.
But the fellow in Gulbishe IS wearing alot of Turkic kit (realy, aside from his massive Viking sword, his gear is mostly of Turkic style).
Mind you - his boots are still more modest than the one from Novgorod. That one seems to reach to the knee.
But anyhow - I think the boots may not realy be part of the find precisely - remember, he was burned. It may be that these are just a way that the artist was completing the image with an "educated guess".

Dragon_Argent wrote:Those boots are amazingly well preserved! - they are also very cool!
Do you know how/where/in what they were found?

They are from Novgorod and I believe date to the 11th century.
Novgorod yielded a great trove of remarcable finds including a collection of birch bark notes which ranged from love letters to party invitations, grocery lists, a child's school notes and doodles...
If it is the same boot I initialy saw in print, it belonged to a child. Probably survived so well partialy because he had little chance to wear it (my son's shoes often barely get a chance to scuff before I have to get him new ones)

Norman wrote:

Halbrust wrote:The boots here look wrong. Am I wrong?
http://dom-np.narod.ru/rekon/gulbishe2.html

What do you think is wrong with the boots?

For comparison, here is a boot from Novgorod, I think 11th cent.

I have a hard time believing those boots are 11th century. The pictures of Novgorod finds that are out there (http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/NovgorodLeatherp.html) range up to the 16th century and there is no exact date on the shoe pictures. I have never seen welted shoes/boots dated before the 16th century anywhere before and even turn welts are not found before the 2nd quarter of the 15th century. The pattern of the boot even screams 16th century.

This is the site I picked up the photo from.
Unfortunately it does not show a date for the boot. The other gear is anywhere 12 to 14 cent. So you could be right. Though there is a well preserved purse that is labeled 10 to 15th cent. So : shrug :
http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/NovgorodLeatherp.html
David Nicolle has a photo with date in his Armies of Medieval Russia 750-1250 - unfortunately this is precisely one of the pages Google books is not showing and I don't know where my copy of the book went.

This quote from website of Sofya la Rus (SCA Russian resource) supports my recollection that the Novgorod boot is 11th cent.
"The first subtype has many versions of the cut. One of them is presented in the boots from Novgorod. The upper was solid/seamless [tsel'notyanutym], about which the cut gives evidence. The tops of boots [golenishcha] are made of two halves, the forward section forming the head/cap [golovku] and then the boot top, and the rear corresponds to counter/back [zadniku] and also forms the boot top. This example is the earliest model of boot. It is dated to the 11th cent. (Kolchin)"
However, it also says "An analogous boot was found also in later layers of Novgorod, its boot top had holes made for passing a strap through." so you may be right and I am actualy conflating two different boots.
from http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/KWCfeet.html

Here is another set from Novgorod with a boot (or maybe same boot?)

From this site http://esoserver.narod.ru/Pagan/dn_rasko.htm which says that there were "hundreds" of shoe and boot finds from 10-15th cent. (this is the leather page - some nice purse and shoe details - http://esoserver.narod.ru/Pagan/Dr_nov/dn_kozha.htm )

Here is a table of shoe finds in Russia compiled by Saburova the only note on the page is that the XI-XIII section is from Novgorod and Pskov


I'm sorry - there was a lot more googling to do, I just didn't have the time.