Fluting on 15th C Sallets

[Medieval Miscreant]

Has anyone seen any evidence of spiral fluting on sallets? Particularly “Coventryâ€

[InsaneIrish]

No, The coventry is a pointed Sallet. I have never seen any spiral fluting on one, or any spiral fluting on ANY sallet for that matter.

I only remember seeing fluting along the dome on 1 specific Sallet. And it was (I believe) earlier period than the Coventry with no lifting visor.

[Medieval Miscreant]

Here is an example of an onion top sallet with fluting. (I can't get the order of the pics correct, sorry for that)
The other is a repro (of that sallet) that went with a coventry style top.
I know there aren't a lot of surviving extant examples left. I am looking for any reference to one with spiral flutes and was hoping to expand my search by posting here. I believe it was possible, as spiral flutes were in fashion on many kettle hats during the time period. Both can use bevors and I thought there may be some other style similarities between the two helmets. Any thoughts?

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Here is another example. It occurs to me, though, that perhaps there was a design problem with making a 'swirly' sallet. How do you make it work with the brow reinforce?

[EnglishSteel]

Doesnt the general shape of a sallet remove the need for fluting anyway?

[InsaneIrish]

Medieval Miscreant:

Interesting, I have never seen that helm. I have seen the onion style, but not with fluting. Cool.

[chef de chambre]

Both the original sallets posted are either definitely Flemish, or almost certainly Flemish in origin. The bottom one is the sallet of Phillip the Fair, which came to Spain with Phillip and his entourage in 1496 - the pomegranet crest is an allusion to Grenada's recent conquest by his in-laws.

[Medieval Miscreant]

James,

I was thinking either a lower brow reinforce with the fluting only on the main skull or start with straight fluting until clear of the reinforce and continue with spiral from there (possibly only the front flute). I like the straight fluting, but thought spirals would be a nice touch. I guess I'm just trying to figure how far I am off the mark. Please keep the comments coming in. I know what I think looks good, but I want to keep with something that is accurate and follows the fashion of the time (latter 1/3 of the 15th C.) Thanks to everyone for your input so far.

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

That's not a bad idea. It would take some skill to make the flow of the lines look ggod, but I can kind of visualize it. One thing is for sure, if there ever was a swirly salade it was Burgundian! I'm going to go back to looking at tapestries...

[Mac]

Medieval Miscreant,

I think that there is problem is the fundamental difference in the cross-sectional shapes of sallets and kettle hats. Sallets which cover the face must have a more lenticular section, and a "crestier" brow than kettle hats have. This is so the profile line can sweep gracefully down to where it must accommodate the wearer's nose.

I think it can be done, but in order to both look good, and accommodate the nose, the fluting of the skull would have to begin in the middle of the forehead. The height of the brow reinforce would have to be reduced accordingly. The kettle hat, of course, does not have this constraint, and it's flutes can begin swirling from lower down on the skull.

Like James said, Burgundian tapestries are a real good place to start looking for iconographic examples.

[Oaken Rose]

Spiral? No.
Fluting? Yes.

I don't remember whose photo album I took this from.

[Zanetto]

I think that last photo is an Ernst Schmidt piece. I believe that it is in the Higgins Armory Museum

Rob

[chef de chambre]

THat is indeed an Ernst Schmidt piece, circa 1900, give or take a decade, and labled as such, in the foyer of the Higgins museum. Isn't a 'forgery', any more than a modern piece made for a reenactor or collector is, above board, by a respectable armourer. Not a good example to look at, as it was inspired by the Helmschmid harnesses many people are familiar with, but with anachronisims for same such as tassetts, which the collector it was made for insisted on.


That piece (and the little dog armour near to it) are the two most photographed armours in the museum. I hardly ever see photos on the net of the composite late 15th century harness composed of authentic pieces that is on permanent display in the great hall, which is entire, although you occassionally find images of the authentic schallern, sabatons, and pauldrons that were on the roving 'Age of Armour' exhibit for the last 6 years.

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

The Schmidt piece is one UGLY dog indeed compared to the real thing! If you had ever seen Helmschmid's work in Vienna, you wouldn't want that piece of Schmidt in your house!

Here's a spiral embossed salade that appears in a tapestry in the V&A, London, depicting the battle of Roncevaux. Hardly an unimpeachable source, needless to say! I think a more likely candidate for a real helmet would be one with wavy lines, as that is a decorative motif that often appears in the ornamentation, anyway. And, of course, the doggone attachment program reverses the order of my pic's...

[Medieval Miscreant]

Wow! Thanks for the input! For some reason, I went blank and never thought about tapestries.

James,
Were those pics from an online source or from your private stash from studies?

I'm really enjoying the new directions to look.

[Medieval Miscreant]

James,

Could the wavy lines on the "RolandSM" pic represent guilding more than fluting? The pic of the salade really looks (at least to me) like fluting. Would it be appropriate to have spiral fluting over the brow reinfoce? I know the shape of the front skull would make it difficult, but would it even be possible? Thanks for the great pics.

[InsaneIrish]

James,

Could the wavy lines on the "RolandSM" pic represent guilding more than fluting? The pic of the salade really looks (at least to me) like fluting. Would it be appropriate to have spiral fluting over the brow reinfoce? I know the shape of the front skull would make it difficult, but would it even be possible? Thanks for the great pics.

On the rolandSM picture, the wavy lines look more like a painted on motif to me. Sun bursts, sun rays, or fire are a pretty common motifs.

On the other one, I wonder if that is not a depiction of a deep burgundian Kettlehelm with an eye slot cut in it?

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

That 'sunburst' motif is what makes me think that someone MAY have decided to forge it right into the skull, rather than just making it part of the crest, which would have been usual. As regards the fluted salade, well, I'm quite sure that is just what it is. I also think it's a figment of the artist's imagination! Either that, or he badly garbled something he actually saw, which often happened. Artists often relied on inadequate memory to reproduce things that they saw, fleetingly, and, of course, as in this tapestry, they took a lot of real elements and 'fantasied 'em up'! The pic' shows that it certainly wouldn't work the way the artist rendered it!

P.S. I think I found it on flickr.com, though I also am pretty sure I tried to photograph it last time I was there.

[Medieval Miscreant]

James,

If the artist "garbled something he actually saw, with an inadequate memory", could that be a sallet? The overall shape seems close and it has a vision slot. Could he have left out representing the visor as a separate piece? Just an off the wall thought.

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

As I said above, I am quite sure that a salade is what is being depicted, and obviously swirly, but the artist has, in attempting to represent the legendary past, obviously jazzed things up a bit. The question is, how much? And what were his visual sources? Tournament armour, for example, shows up with great regularity in battle scenes, and I always enjoy picking out the 'frogmouth' helms, tonlet armours, what have you. It is clear that artists go with what they have seen, and not many artists had ever seen a battle. But they went to the tournaments, and they saw pageants and parades. The other thing to keep in mind is that they tend to go with what they know, but unless the armour is right in front of them when they are doing the work, it WILL be garbled to some extent. The final thing is that they often want to be a little creative with it, which will garble it even more. So did the artist ever see a swirly salade? I can't say, except that he does not seem to have rendered it accurately, if so. One thing to also keep in mind with armour is that art imitates life imitates art. People saw things in art and thought, 'I want one of those!'. I suspect that is where such things as the spiral fluted war hat in the Met came from. And, of course, artists were occasionally called in to design armour for wealthy patrons.

[Medieval Miscreant]

Thanks again for the insight! Probably the best thing about the Archive is the fact that everyone here is willing to help in one way or another. I'm going to continue my search because this has turned into something bordering an obsession. I really appreciate the help found here.