The Ombrellino, Umbraculum or Pavilion and Medieval Tent Con

[earnest carruthers]

"It makes a good argument for internal structure of some sort. "

It also makes a good argument for people being almost as big as their tents.

Not meaning to be facetious (this is a convenient example and could come from any of us), but if one aspect of an image is taken as possible evidence on the basis that a particular aspect is 'realistic', then that should be applied to other aspects. In this case (and many others), it does not stack up.

What do we actually know with a fair bit of certainty?
That those men are probably not in proportion to the tents portrayed.

That it is a MSS illustration, limited in size and proportion due to the practicalities of the medium and aesthetics of the time.

Therefore my question would be:
If an artist is so assiduous in portraying a particular feature such as the way an (possibly) internally supported tent might look if it fell, then why would he ignore the obvious disparity in sizes of the key characters? That makes no sense whatsoever, unless the tent has some unknown import beyond that of the main characters.

Maybe it is that a tent toppling over that looks like a tent will be easier understood to be a tent rather than simple pile of cloth.


So, why, and this applies across the board, do we assess apparent reality in images for one thing and ignore the obvious unrealities in the same image?


That applies to many of the 'reasons' why such and such an item is interpreted, early images of tents show no detail whatsoever, yet some would say it is proof of no guys in tents, yet would laugh if you produced a mail shirt with links to the same scale as the ones in the pic. Because 'it is not drawn to scale dummy, it is a representation', sure if the mail can be interpreted that way, then you can bet that a guy rope and an apparent giant or two could be easily ignored.

'Realistic' is a term that has very different meaning to different people, reading treatise descriptions of how to paint people and scenes reveals a lot about 'realism' and correctness in portrayal.

We should tread very carefully when making judgements from images, artists are not reliable most of the time.

[Charlotte J]

As I was posting it last night, I did consider posting the artistic convention caveat. :p

No, it’s not a smoking gun. But it is another data point in the whole question of tent support. And since, for the most part, we are limited to looking at tents in art, as opposed to a plethora of archaeological and textual evidence, I think it’s valid to use it as a data point along with a variety of others to construct at least a decent argument for a particular solution. You’ll note that I very rarely say, “this is proof that they did it this wayâ€

[earnest carruthers]

I accept all of that without reservation.

I do feel that we can't simply look at an object in a picture and ascribe it with much unless we can apply the judgement criteria to other things in the image. With that particular one (and others like it), it seems odd for that to be stunningly spot on when the rest is not.

I don't for one minute suggest there is a universal set of scales we can use either because the very nature of medieval art is fraught with contradictions and considerations we may never understand.

Personally I tend to weigh up whether the artist shows actual objective competence in a piece of work. That is not to say that they must on do what appears to be realistic, no, but well rendered and apparently well observed items that match finds or other known proofs. There is a fair amount of that about to use as suggested evidence.

Many MSS painters were not as skilled and used third and even multiple hand models of images to work from, producing extremely formulaic and mass produced work for a wide market, they are the ones that I would be very sceptical of as primary sources, lovely though they be.

[Karen Larsdatter]

Okay ... how about ... this?

Sigismond Malatesta's army prepares to decamp, Hesperides (MS Canon. Class. Lat. 81, fol. 49v), 1457-1468


(Working on adding it to http://larsdatter.com/pavilion-setup.htm shortly ...)

[James B.]

Does anybody have a larger, more detailed version of this?

http://www.currentmiddleages.org/tents/bologne.htm

Slightly larger:

http://www.currentmiddleages.org/tents/bologne.jpg

Some interesting things in there. There appear to be some rope-only tents wavering in the breeze. But the rectangular tents are interesting - some have wiggly ropes, but the structure of the canopy is entirely intact.

Rectangles are a whole 'nother kettle of fish. You really can't hold one out well with simple splayed ropes.

Just FYI on the Bologne images; they are 18th century engravings of 16th century murals that are now lost. The engravings are fairly accurate IMO because "The Embarkation at Dover" is not lost and you can compare the original with the engraving and see much of the details are the same however the engravings are not as detailed at the original art.


This is a great thread, it has pointed out details in art I have not looked at before.

[Galleron]

Here's a another pavilion strongly suggestive of an internal hoop:

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... clius.html

[Tailoress]

That's a nicer, color photo of the one I posted a link to back on page 1. Thank you for finding it. It supports the umbrella end of the argument nicely.

Okay ... how about ... this?

Sigismond Malatesta's army prepares to decamp, Hesperides (MS Canon. Class. Lat. 81, fol. 49v), 1457-1468

[Galleron]

Does anybody have a larger, more detailed version of this?

http://www.currentmiddleages.org/tents/bologne.htm

Slightly larger:

http://www.currentmiddleages.org/tents/bologne.jpg

Some interesting things in there. There appear to be some rope-only tents wavering in the breeze. But the rectangular tents are interesting - some have wiggly ropes, but the structure of the canopy is entirely intact.

Rectangles are a whole 'nother kettle of fish. You really can't hold one out well with simple splayed ropes.

Just FYI on the Bologne images; they are 18th century engravings of 16th century murals that are now lost. The engravings are fairly accurate IMO because "The Embarkation at Dover" is not lost and you can compare the original with the engraving and see much of the details are the same however the engravings are not as detailed at the original art.


This is a great thread, it has pointed out details in art I have not looked at before.

Here are details of the Boulogne campaign images:

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... uison.html

[Galleron]

Okay ... how about ... this?

Sigismond Malatesta's army prepares to decamp, Hesperides (MS Canon. Class. Lat. 81, fol. 49v), 1457-1468


(Working on adding it to http://larsdatter.com/pavilion-setup.htm shortly ...)

Thanks for posting the link to this excellent site. It's very nice seeing the other images from the MS.

A couple of things struck me.

The erect pavilions consistently have valences, but the tent that's being lowered does not. The ropes of the tent being lowered are not attached to the edge of the roof, but slightly higher.

The ropes frequently meet the roof slightly above the shoulder, both in this and other images.

I wonder if this design had a separate valence over a hoop, that was attached to and overlapped by the roof proper.

[Galleron]

Okay ... how about ... this?

Sigismond Malatesta's army prepares to decamp, Hesperides (MS Canon. Class. Lat. 81, fol. 49v), 1457-1468


(Working on adding it to http://larsdatter.com/pavilion-setup.htm shortly ...)

Here's another image, of tents being set up, from the same MS:

http://bodley30.bodley.ox.ac.uk:8180/lu ... t/s/z95kf9

Note that the description, like many from this MS, seems to be of a different page from the same work.

[Kilkenny]

Okay ... how about ... this?

Sigismond Malatesta's army prepares to decamp, Hesperides (MS Canon. Class. Lat. 81, fol. 49v), 1457-1468


(Working on adding it to http://larsdatter.com/pavilion-setup.htm shortly ...)

Here's another image, of tents being set up, from the same MS:

http://bodley30.bodley.ox.ac.uk:8180/lu ... t/s/z95kf9

Note that the description, like many from this MS, seems to be of a different page from the same work.

On the subject of the possible separate valance, I think if you look toward the rear in the image you point out above, you can see a fellow taking a tent down that is still vertical, but with the roof collapsed. The rounded dags of the bottom edge of the roof are clearly visible there.

In the image Karen linked, I could make an argument that the tent being taken down that is tipped over also has the dagged bottom edge, but because the dags are falling at a different angle from the rest of the roof, they effectively disappear. There are some rounded bits in that image that may represent the edges of those dags.

It seems to me that a separate valance is over complicating the system a great deal.

In these images, the element that mitigates most strongly, to my mind, against either a hub and spoke or a hoop system is that I simply do not see anything that I can make into either framework (short of suggesting that the lances do double duty, which I consider a humorous comment and not at all practical). With so many elements of the process represented so well, I would expect some figure hauling away either the straight spokes, or the curved elements of the hoops (or straight pieces that might get curved into hoops when installed). Whatever the frames might look like dismantled - I can't see anything in the images that represents them.

Their absence in the illustrations seems telling. And I really like the hub and spoke construction of my large round pavillion. It's tremendously practical and efficient in a variety of ways.

I just can't see support for it, or a hoop, in the illustrations we're looking at...

[Art of Jousting]

If you look at the pack mule on the far right in the picture of MS Canon. Class. Lat. 81, fol. 49v, it looks like poles are strapped to the top, one of which could be interpreted as being curved. That being said, given the rest of the detail in that picture, such as a tent wall being taken down, a wall being folded up, etc, the fact that there is no unambiguous pictures of inner frame work for either spokes or hoop suggests that it possibly wasn't used for these tents. Of course just because they possibly did not use it, doesn't mean that spokes or hoops weren't used in other places.

[Mac]

It would be nice to find "smoking gun" evidence of internal structures
in medieval tentage in pictures. Unfortunately it's the sort of thing
that artists are very unlikely to have shown. To see it, you have to
be inside the tent.

The fact remains that the shapes of most medieval tents are
easily achievable with internal structure and are not possible without it.

That tents of the late 14th through the 16th Centuries typically had
internal structure is self evident. The question is not "did they
have structure", but "what was the structure like".

Mac

[Mac]

Here are some pictures of a couple of models I have made. They are 1/6th scale. The frames are bent wood.

I have found that my models behave very much like full size tents.

I think it is fair to say that they capture the lines that we see in period illustrations.









Mac

[Galleron]

Here's a link to a color picture of the domed Meliadus tents:

http://www.stockphotopro.com/photo_of/B ... rseback_in

A larger B&W view is here:

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... on_15.html

[Mac]

It has been a week now since I posted a short manifesto about
tent frames and some pictures of my reconstructions in miniature.
I was hoping to provoke further discussion, but instead there has
been silence......

What's with that?

Mac

[James B.]

Mac

I have to say I like it, if I ever get around to making my own tent (long term plan) I may in fact steal your idea and cross it with the leather tabs on the eaves on the Basel tent.

[Mac]

James,

The tent (s?) from Graz have leather grommets on a flange above
the valence. The tent in Basel has a flange in lieu of a valence.
Both (all) of these tents are 17th C. and do not appear to have had
a frame at the shoulder. The Graz tent that toured with the
exhibition *did* have internal ties for a ridge support.

It is unfortunate for us that the few surviving tents are quite late.

Mac

[Baron Alcyoneus]

It is also unlikely that they completely reinvented the wheel in the 17thC.


Speaking of wheels...

There are plenty of depictions of wheels mounted on poles- mostly as torture/punishment devices. What about that as the basis for a tent frame?

[Mac]

Alcyoneus,

My impression is that after over two hundred years of being typical, tent
frames go out of fashion in the 17th C. , and they return to the earlier practice of stretching their canopies with ropes.

On the Basel tent, the cone is acute enough to make this practical. The
tent (s?) from Graz have short enough walls (you have to duck to enter) that
rope tensioning alone will do.

Mac

[Charlotte J]

It has been a week now since I posted a short manifesto about
tent frames and some pictures of my reconstructions in miniature.
I was hoping to provoke further discussion, but instead there has
been silence......

What's with that?

Mac

I already agree with you.

[James B.]

James,

The tent (s?) from Graz have leather grommets on a flange above
the valence. The tent in Basel has a flange in lieu of a valence.
Both (all) of these tents are 17th C. and do not appear to have had
a frame at the shoulder. The Graz tent that toured with the
exhibition *did* have internal ties for a ridge support.

It is unfortunate for us that the few surviving tents are quite late.

Mac

Right, I was thinking one could make a larger valence on the top and add ties for a hoop and still get the leather grommets to work like the Basel tent; since the Basel tent had an internal structure for display reasons in the museum.

[Jeff J]

I already agree with you.

CHARLOTTE JOHNSON'S RIGHT!

Mac's tent is pretty much in accordance with what we've been figuring on. My conundrum is how to make the hoop in segments. I'm considering fabricating a set of steel sockets from pipe, tinned.

Do love the way the last photo of the series gives the illusion the tent is full sized.

[Steve S.]

I already agree with you.

Me too.

Steve

[Mac]

Right, I was thinking one could make a larger valence on the top and add ties for a hoop and still get the leather grommets to work like the Basel tent; since the Basel tent had an internal structure for display reasons in the museum.

I'm having trouble understanding. Can you make a sketch?

Mac

[Mac]

Mac's tent is pretty much in accordance with what we've been figuring
on. My conundrum is how to make the hoop in segments. I'm
considering fabricating a set of steel sockets from pipe, tinned.

Do love the way the last photo of the series gives the illusion the tent
is full sized. :)

Jeff,

This run of models uses bent 1/8" square section wood and square
brass tube for the connectors.

found the resulting hoop to be a bit too wonky. It would not stay in a plane, but tended to fall into waves.

I recommend using square or rectangular stuff for the hoop. Even if
all else were equal, it is easier to bend than round stuff.

Mac

[Jeff J]

I recommend using square or rectangular stuff for the hoop. Even if
all else were equal, it is easier to bend than round stuff.

Mac

Makes sense. I recollect Jeff & Gwen's tent taking it further and having a very flat hoop - on the order of 1/4" x 2". Also recall they used a couple/few 1/4" carriage bolts & wingnuts as fasteners for the sections. I'd still feel better with a metal tie-plate for strength, but that probably over-engineering. Or, you could drill many small holes and lace the sections together. Hmmm...

[Mac]

Jeff,

I've done three different flavors of flat hoops in my full size tent. I
have also made up several models with slat hoops of different sorts.

In my experience, they are not good in the wind. The windward side
of the hoop flattens and the shoulder drops down. This is one of the
places where my models work exactly like my full size tent.

If you use flat hoops, you should be prepared to have some sort of
internal spokes as well to keep everything concentric and round. I
use light weight wooden spokes in my full size tent to counteract the
problem. I have built models with spokes of cordage, and that works
as well.

Mac

[Chris Gilman]

Mac,
Nice models.

Back in the late 80's I made 2 ten foot diameter round period style pavilions with a hoop and center pole. For ease of transport I wanted the pole and hoop to pack down as much as possible. (Very convenient for flying to an event)
The segmented center pole used a simple sleeve arrangement which made me think; I could do this with the hoop.
I used 11/4â€

[Mac]

Chris,

Clever and innovative, as usual.

Did you bend the dowels?

I see the frame has quit a bit of waviness. Would you attribute this to the round dowels twisting in their sockets, or to the flexibility of the sockets?

Mac

[Charlotte J]

Jeff,

I've done three different flavors of flat hoops in my full size tent. I
have also made up several models with slat hoops of different sorts.

In my experience, they are not good in the wind. The windward side
of the hoop flattens and the shoulder drops down. This is one of the
places where my models work exactly like my full size tent.

If you use flat hoops, you should be prepared to have some sort of
internal spokes as well to keep everything concentric and round. I
use light weight wooden spokes in my full size tent to counteract the
problem. I have built models with spokes of cordage, and that works
as well.

Mac

http://news.webshots.com/photo/14153224 ... 0132vtXXWn

A friend of ours has a oval hoop with flat sections. They’re bent
when they’re assembled, held bent by the tension of the canvas.
She now has them in sleeves instead of the ties. I don’t recall from
conversations how it held up in the wind, but she
has taken it to several Pennsics and says that it’s been sturdy.
It may work because of the rectangular frame in the middle.

[Chris Gilman]

Actually, after I posted the picture I realised this tent has a welded metal frame. The waivieness I think is the uneven tension of the base stakes as the frame is welded aluminum tube. I did not bend the wood dowels, they where straight.
Edit:
I also just realized this photo is from the set of a movie and I don't know how the tent was set up. It could be the pins aligning the metal hoop segments where not put in, causing them to twist.
If memory serves, the wood segments where held by 3 ties; one at each “jointâ€

[Mac]

I used metal for my first tent frame. It was made of 5 curved pieces
of 1/2" EMT, and held together by the screw type connectors. The
frame worked fine, but my method of attachment was unsatisfactory.
I had provided loops in the canopy and loops on the walls. Everything
had to be threaded together while the canopy was upside down on the
ground. That was a real pain in the ass, but the loops were a bigger
problem. The areas of the canopy between the loops would sag and
create a pooling problem.

The result, was that I abandoned the metal frame and went in another
direction. The problem, of course, was not the metal frame, but the
loops. If I had used "sleeves" or "pockets" like my current models,
everything would have worked just fine.

Mac

[James B.]

A question came to mind about the Basel tent, is the whole thing two layers or just the top? It is clear in the graydragon photos it is a two layer top at the eaves:

http://www.greydragon.org/images/tentpics/tent26.jpg

http://www.greydragon.org/images/tentpics/tent37.jpg

Also it is reinforced with another layer at the leather grommets and the top most areas has at least another layer on it looking at this photo:

http://www.greydragon.org/images/tentpics/tent81.jpg

Are the walls doubled up too I wonder. The Tent of Carlos V on his site is also two layers.

[Mac]

James,

It's hard to tell, isn't it? It could be just a band sewn in at the edge, or
it could be that the entire canopy is two layers thick. A double layer
canopy might be less inclined to "mist through" in heavy rain.

I would be surprised if the walls were not a single thickness. They
don't take as much stress as the canopy. Neither do they meet the
rain so
directly that misting is an issue.

It's a pity we don't have pics of the inside. I'd like to see how the walls
are attached.

Mac