The Ombrellino, Umbraculum or Pavilion and Medieval Tent Con

[Galleron]

Steve - Crow's feet can help with the round look, on a ropes only tent. FWIW.

True, but only to an extent. And you will still have a polygon regardless of the number of points of contact.

But another thing to consider is that several images show the guy ropes coming from places other than the eves.

This is true, and, if accurate, points almost certainly to some kind of internal structure. On my hoop pavilion, the guy ropes, when used, come out from under the valence, just as the walls themselves do. In practice, however, I never use guy ropes with my hoop pavilion; The walls themselves serve to secure the pavilion.

Steve

Galleron - forgive me if this is intruding too much on your thread. But I'd love it if Steve would post some pictures and more descriptions of his hoop tent. Perhaps a new thread?

I would also like to know more about Steve's hoop tent, and I think a new thread would be the best place to read it.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

You can find tents w/o external ropes at all, but they still stand. Perhaps they left out the boring ropes, that is possible. But in the Mac Bible you will find tents like this, but with some sort of hook holding the doorways open.

[img]http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/ ... otm3va.gif[/img]

They must be attached to something, assuming that they exist at all.

You can find pavillions with internal curtains along with their rods, that also must be attached to something.

If you look at The Virgin Mary Protecting Siena from Earthquakes you will find round pavillions with external ropes attaching to the top of the center pole only.
[img]http://images.suite101.com/273488_sienaone.jpg[/img]

Once again, they have shapes that support themselves w/o ropes on the edges.

[Mac]

I would like to call attention to the canopy over the Virgin in this painting by Petrus Christus.

http://www.oceansbridge.com/oil-paintin ... husianmonk

Its shape is the result of hoop. If canopies of state are made this way, than surely canopies of pavilions can be made similarly.

Mac

[Steve S.]

If you look at The Virgin Mary Protecting Siena from Earthquakes you will find round pavillions with external ropes attaching to the top of the center pole only.

In fact, this is precisely what my round looks like when erected. The "storm guys", as I call them, that attach to the center pole itself, are used to hold the pole upright as you assemble the rest of the tent. After that they don't really serve a function, other than to provide additional stability in storm, hence, "storm guys".

I find your picture very compelling because the artist clearly took the time to draw some of the ropes. Surely if there were normal guy ropes he would have painted those also? I think their omission is telling.

Steve

[Steve S.]

I would like to call attention to the canopy over the Virgin in this painting by Petrus Christus.

Cool picture, find, Mac! This canopy looks very much like the roof of my tent!

Steve

[Mac]

I would like to call attention to the canopy over the Virgin in this painting by Petrus Christus.

Cool picture, find, Mac! This canopy looks very much like the roof of my tent! :)

Steve

I believe that bed canopies and canopies of state are valuable analogies to tent canopies. If you were going to have one made, who would you go to....? The tent maker, of course! It's probably what he did during the off season.

Mac

[Sean Powell]

Something no one seems to be considering:

A comfortable tent size of say 12' in diameter has 37'8" of perimiter. Assuming canvas width of 32" (or just poles spaced every 32") you need 14 poles 6' long. This could also be 14 spokes 6' long and around 12' diameter it becomes more efficient to use perimiter poles then spokes. but either of these represent 84 linear feet of pole thick enough to be used in column compression over it's entire span. 38' of flexible poles for a hoop is considerably less wood then 84' of perimiter poles. Less wood is logically lighter and easier to transport. For an army that needs to travel light hoops would be an advantage over perimiter poles or spokes.

Sean

[Steve S.]

Of course following that road no poles are the best yet.

Steve

[Baron Alcyoneus]

I'd looked at the canopies, but wasn't sure if that wasn't pushing it.

I'm not sure that a hoop tent would be the best bet for bad weather, thoughts?

[Steve S.]

My hoop tent is impervious to weather. First even we ever set it up had a thunderstorm. No problems at all. It has much going for it:

Round shape sheds wind naturally.
Can't pool water
Steep pitches shed water easily
No ropes to tighten.
Canvas is all extremely taught so is basically immovable in wind.

Steve

[Mac]

I'd looked at the canopies, but wasn't sure if that wasn't pushing it.

I'm not sure that a hoop tent would be the best bet for bad weather, thoughts?

I have tested my models in a simulated wind storm provided by a couple of fans. The results lead me to believe that a ridged hoop is very strong in the wind.

By contrast, a flexible hoop (like I used to use) flattens on the windward side, and exacerbates the problem. The fact that my models behave exactly like my full size pavilion in this regard gives me faith in the veracity of the modeling.

Incidentally, this innate tenancy of flexible hoops to deform in the wind can be corrected by the addition of lightweight wooden spokes acting in compression. This is what I currently use in my tent.

It can also be corrected with rope spokes which act in tension. I have used this to good effect on models.

Mac

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Another thought that had crossed my mind in the past was that there is certainly precedent for using wheels on posts, all that would be necessary would be to add canvas. The size of wheels on wagons is certainly limiting for overall tent size (as well as the length of pole used).

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Martin Schongauer (b1430, active 1450-1491)
The Annunciation

[Kilkenny]

I like this image for the ombrellino argument:

http://home.adelphi.edu/sbloch/sca/tent ... igger.html

They sure do look and act like folded up umbrellas. Regarding the open question as to whether or not the artist is making up the engineering, I'm more inclined to accept this drawing as reality-based than not. The design is plausible, the context is realistic and non-allegorical, and the level of detail re: ropes and stakes, and various stages of assembly seems too high to warrant making it all up for a humble little drawing like this one.

They also look very much like my hub and spoke pavillion. While there's a bunch of good detail there, I can say what direction it leads us. We can't see any internal framework, we can't see any spokes removed and stacked anyplace or being carried off to the wagons.

They could all just be centerpoles with the ropes pulling the tops out into shape, no structure at all. Granted, I don't see that with the rope geometry shown, but the artist might have got the angles wrong...

I'm inclined to wager that there may well have been more than one solution to how to build a given style of tent, just as there were more than one style of tent.

[Kilkenny]

Ropes are Ockham's razor.

The problem with the round shape argument is that it is the kind of thing that people would perceive and draw even if it isn't perfectly round.

And here you go conforming observable fact to match your preferred answer.

[Kilkenny]

In that picture, there are several caissons with what may be conical fabric covers - or pavillions being transported ?

I'm curious if anyone knows what those curious vehicles are, conclusively.
If they are pavillions in transport, then we may be looking at evidence of both hoops and spokes. But they may well be something else entirely that I'm failing to recognize...

[Charlotte J]

Alcy:

That’s a fantastic image! When we make our tent, in addition to the regular side walls, we’re planning on having interior curtain walls. I’d love to occasionally just set it up with the interior walls so we can get that look.

[Kilkenny]

Martin Schongauer (b1430, active 1450-1491)
The Annunciation

Obviously this image makes a pretty strong argument for the hoop construction argument. At the same time, it raises questions about the mechanics.

To my eye, it looks as though we are seeing a view of the same tent wall from both exterior and interior views. The wall is suspended by rings from a hoop. But what supports the hoop? How is the hoop connected to the canopy ?

As represented, it does not appear to me that there is sufficient connection of the hoop to the canopy to provide adequate support.

As the King said, it is a puzzlement.

[Mac]

we can't see any spokes removed and stacked anyplace or being carried off to the wagons.

Unless that's what is on the back of the mule in the upper right.

Mac

[Mac]

Of the thousands of tents in medieval and renaissance illustrations which have come down to us, only a tiny number show ropes at an angle that would actually support the canopy.

Some artists show ropes, but not at a suitable angle to stretch the canopy. These artists could just as easily have shown them at a suitable angle. They are, after all, just lines on a painting, they could paint them anywhere they please.

If all the tents in an encampment were stretched by guy lines, the overwhelming visual impression would be very different than the one the artists are showing. An artist may gloss over the details, but he would not ignore such a visually important thing as a camp full of guy lines.

The other important piece of evidence is that almost all of these pictures show the "shoulders" or "eaves" of the tents as if they were plane figures. Round tents are round and square tents are square. With very few exemptions, they do not show with the polygonal outlines that spoke tents have. With even fewer exceptions, they do not show them sagging between the guys like rope-stretched tents do.

If tents in the middle ages commonly had spokes, then artists would have shown them with polygonal shoulders. If tents in the middle ages sagged between their guy ropes, then artists would have commonly shown that.

I am not saying that such tents did not exist. I am saying that they were not the norm.

The iconographic evidence appears to tell us that the most typical tent of the time period from the fourteenth to the sixteenth century had some sort of hoop-like frame.

Mac

[Kilkenny]

we can't see any spokes removed and stacked anyplace or being carried off to the wagons.

Unless that's what is on the back of the mule in the upper right.

Mac

Not impossible, but it doesn't look like nearly enough poles, to me. The illustration pretty clearly shows people folding/rolling up canvas, and at least one mule (upper left) looks to be loaded with some of that packed canvas.

With the detail provided, I would expect the hoops or spokes to be fairly evident - as evident as the folding canvas - but they are not.

[Galleron]

Martin Schongauer (b1430, active 1450-1491)
The Annunciation

Obviously this image makes a pretty strong argument for the hoop construction argument. At the same time, it raises questions about the mechanics.

To my eye, it looks as though we are seeing a view of the same tent wall from both exterior and interior views. The wall is suspended by rings from a hoop. But what supports the hoop? How is the hoop connected to the canopy ?

As represented, it does not appear to me that there is sufficient connection of the hoop to the canopy to provide adequate support.

I believe what we are seeing on the inside of the tent is an iron curtain rod, and there is a separate hoop between it and the valence. The upper edge of the hoop is hidden by the curtain rod.

The curtain rod is supported at widely separate points, to allow the curtain rings to slide along it. We only see about 60 degrees of the rod's circumference, and the supports are on the part of the rod not visible.

Without a separate hoop, the curtain rings will be trapped by the pressure of the canopy, and they will show as bumps visible on the outside of the valence.

[Mac]

I believe what we are seeing on the inside of the tent is an iron curtain rod, and there is a separate hoop between it and the valence. The upper edge of the hoop is hidden by the curtain rod.

The curtain rod is supported at widely separate points, to allow the curtain rings to slide along it. We only see about 60 degrees of the rod's circumference, and the supports are on the part of the rod not visible.

Without a separate hoop, the curtain rods will be trapped by the pressure of the canopy, and they will show as bumps visible on the outside of the valence.

I believe that G is right about this. Curtains are frequently to be seen in these canopies of state. On those occasions when the artist has let us see the inside, there is frequently an internal valance which conceals the attachment of the walls or any framework. (it's almost like they are going out of their way to make it difficult for us.....)

Mac

[Jeff J]

A separate inside hoop/suspension structure makes so much sense. You want the second set of hangings a bit to the inside of the outerwalls to provide a ventilation gap for the heat to rise and for it to breathe. I'm thinking there ought be a second layer under the roof as well.

[Steve S.]

Baron Alcyoneus:

Fantastic image find.

The image clearly shows an internal structure of some kind. It is not clear how the structure is supported. Even if it were supported, it is not clear how the curtain would move back and forth along the "rod" for each curtain ring would hit the support structure for the rod at regular intervals.

I think the structure is incompletely or inaccurately shown, but at least it demonstrates some kind of internal hoop-like structure. This is the first picture like this I have ever seen.

Steve

[Mac]

Here is another canopy of state with a curtain inside.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24364447@N05/2335152346/#/

Mac

[Mac]

Here is another.

http://www.lib-art.com/imgpainting/2/2/ ... emalle.jpg

Mac

[Charlotte J]

Poking around a few books last night... Sorry for the poor shots - I just snapped them with my phone so they'd be quicker to upload. If anybody needs a better scan or source, let me know.

(ETA: Jeff points out these aren't tents. Yeah, but I thought a few random canopies not supported by ropes would be worth having.)

[Steve S.]

Your first picture is something I have heard called a "palequin" but I'm not sure how to spell it. I think it's supported by a wood structure.

The second two pictures, as well as the canopies of estate provided by Robert, are pretty compelling evidence for structures used to support conical fabric structures.

This is an awesome forum. I never new about the evidence for any kind of hoop structure relating to fabric.

Steve

[Baron Alcyoneus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litter_%28vehicle%29

Palanquin?

You can find pics of VIP with people carrying shade for them simply mounted on poles, which is fine for light weight fabric.



This shows one reason why it is hard to find the hoops, it is internal to the fabric, inside a sleeve. For something permanent, that is probably more likely than something you'd travel with, IMO. For a pavillion you are traveling with, you might want to dispense with hiding 100% of the hoop.

I've also found a picture that showed (I was convinced at least) that sometimes the vertical poles were also inserted into a sleeve. I can't recall the name of the picture, or the artist at the moment, but I think it can be found in Barber&Barker's Tournament. The pavillion even has windows, IIRC, with red vertical sleeves concealing the poles.

[Mac]

Alcyoneus,

Is the image you refer to?

http://home.adelphi.edu/sbloch/sca/tent ... tent.1.gif

It is from King Rene's Book of Love.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Yes it is. Now I don't have to look it up.

[Sean Powell]

Interesting image. Those could be poles in pockets but they could also be over-sewn ropes anchored to the fabric. Look how the red stripes line up with the ropes. Each red stripe ends either in the middle of a fan of 6 ropes or between 2 fans. Even the stakes at the bottom are to ropes that span over the red stripes. If the poles were in pockets you would logically expect the ropes to be in line with the poles so as not to unduly stress the fabric. spacing the 'pocket poles' between the ropes seems counter intuitive. I think the spacing is too regular to be coincidence but there is always the issue of 'artist pulling ideas from his gludial cleft" explanation.

I'm not certain what to think but I AM in the market for a new tent and this is strongly driving me towards a hoop tent of some sort.

Can this system work on an oval?

Sean

[Charlotte J]

Can this system work on an oval?

Sean

A hoop? Yes.

http://community.webshots.com/album/415222863yrIcUq

The rectangle is a frame, but the ends are simple pine molding pieces, like you'd get at Lowes or Home Depot. They're not shaped, they're straight, and they're bent only when they're in the tent. She's since retrofitted the ties to a sleeve.

This is very much like what we're planning. At this point, it's just deciding what to use for wood (probably very thin but wide ash), what the dimensions are, and whether or not we need a separate valance from the hoop sleeve (probably). Oh, and if we want the ropes coming out from under the valance or attached outside and above.

[Mac]

I'm not certain what to think but I AM in the market for a new tent and this is strongly driving me towards a hoop tent of some sort.

Can this system work on an oval?

Sean

works for me.....

http://billyandcharlie.com/tents/tent_marqueeclosed.JPG
http://billyandcharlie.com/tents/tent_marqueeopen.JPG

Mac