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Ethnic cleansing: 12-13C Norwich
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:52 pm
by arg
Originally discovered in 2004, but a new analysis airs on BBC this week and next.
Not a happy subject matter, but it happened, and gives us a snapshot about the time and place...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13855238"The remains of 17 bodies found at the bottom of a medieval well in England could have been victims of persecution, new evidence has suggested..."
I wonder abut the lack of injuries aside from the fractures attributed to the fall. Could these have been misinterpreted and instead be recieved injuries of aggression prior to being dumped into a well (wouldnt the water, if deep enough, break the fall) No discussion on evidence of cuts or blunt force trauma in areas of defensive or aggressive posture (reading into it, they didnt put up a fight). Suggesting surprise, or overwhelming force (likely both).
Quite the way to shut down a neighborhood, an armed lynching party arrives at night, kills a couple of families as a message, and poisons the well...
Re: Ethnic cleansing: 12-13C Norwich
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:41 pm
by Andrew Bodley
Tennis seems to have bounced the program till next week:(
Re: Ethnic cleansing: 12-13C Norwich
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:35 pm
by EnglishSteel
The late 12th century wasnt a good time to be a Jew in England and especially Norwich (and London and York and Stamford and...)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_of_NorwichIf the dating is accurate then they may be victims of the crusading zeal sweeping the country as preparations were made for the third crusade.
Or they all slipped and fell...
Re: Ethnic cleansing: 12-13C Norwich
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:48 pm
by Jeff J
Wells were dangerous. accidents happen.
Re: Ethnic cleansing: 12-13C Norwich
Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:17 am
by Peikko
EnglishSteel wrote:The late 12th century wasnt a good time to be a Jew in England and especially Norwich (and London and York and Stamford and...)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_of_NorwichIf the dating is accurate then they may be victims of the crusading zeal sweeping the country as preparations were made for the third crusade.
Or they all slipped and fell...
One slip is a believable "accident"...16 more is hardly accidental, it speaks to planning.
oh, and fractures on the one's at the bottom suggest that the well was dry...or at least very shallow.
In the end unless we can find cut marks or evidence of strangulation...we can't say "murder". However, this is a highly unusual method of disposing of bodies, even at it's worst victims of the plague in the 1300's were buried in a relatively normal manner. So, a whole family plus a dozen other individuals disposed of in a dry well sure looks odd to say the least.
Re: Ethnic cleansing: 12-13C Norwich
Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:32 am
by Peikko
Blunt force trauma is a massive problem area at the moment...differentiating between perimortem and postmortem blunt force trauma is nearly impossible unlike antemortem. Everything gets crushed in the earth.
As for perimortem cuts...you don't need to cut to the cervical vertebrae to cut a throat. If the victim is restrained (for example grabbed from behind), then abdominal and throat injuries are unlikely to hit bone and is a plausible explanation of the lack of defensive cut marks on the arms.
Re: Ethnic cleansing: 12-13C Norwich
Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:08 pm
by Theo
Strangulation can leave evidence on skeletal remains, like sometimes the hyoid bone snaps when someone is strangled. But if you're dealing with 17 people all thrown down the same well, it's possible they could have all been thrown down the well alive and left to die. A large enough mob could have done it, especially since all of victims weren't adults.
Re: Ethnic cleansing: 12-13C Norwich
Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:22 pm
by Peikko
Agreed.
Re: Ethnic cleansing: 12-13C Norwich
Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:46 pm
by Jonathan Atkin
I wonder if this was religiously motivated or maybe a lynching over something else and...who would drink the water after there were dead bodies in it X _ X
Re: Ethnic cleansing: 12-13C Norwich
Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:09 am
by Peikko
Jonathan Atkin wrote:I wonder if this was religiously motivated or maybe a lynching over something else and...who would drink the water after there were dead bodies in it X _ X
The cause we simply cannot know without further evidence...and what evidence we do have suggests the well was dry.
Re: Ethnic cleansing: 12-13C Norwich
Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:53 pm
by Norman
Borat wrote:Throw the Jews down the well, so our country can be free.
Re: Ethnic cleansing: 12-13C Norwich
Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:37 pm
by Mac
I'm shocked and saddened to see evidence of a "mini pogrom" in England. In my blissful ignorance, I just did not expect the English to do that sort of thing.....
Having the bones, somehow makes it more real and more tangible than if it were a written account.
The human tragedy of it transcends the centuries.
Mac
Re: Ethnic cleansing: 12-13C Norwich
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:18 am
by Peikko
Mac wrote:I'm shocked and saddened to see evidence of a "mini pogrom" in England. In my blissful ignorance, I just did not expect the English to do that sort of thing.....
Having the bones, somehow makes it more real and more tangible than if it were a written account.
The human tragedy of it transcends the centuries.
Mac
Indeed, the speed with which humanity can turn upon itself is amazing.
http://ddickerson.igc.org/cliffords-tower.html
Re: Ethnic cleansing: 12-13C Norwich
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:54 am
by Alric of Drentha
I'm very skeptical of the ethnic arguments, here. The DNA testing they did is very trendy, and I'm confident that the skeletons are related to each other, but how do you test someone's DNA to show that they're Jewish? There are a lot of assumptions that go into that conclusion, including the troubling idea that Jews have different 'blood' than other Europeans and that Jews never intermarried in the middle ages and thus had some sort of separate genetic markers. Trying to find Jews in the past by studying their genes feels very 1930s to me.
(I'm not just playing the Godwin's Law card in response to this article - there are a number of troublingly racist 19th and early 20th century arguments that are being given new life by forensic science, such as the idea that you can measure someone's race and country of origin by their skull shape or DNA. It's as though the past decades of anthropological work that show that ethnic/racial lines are socially constructed and are often crossed and blurred never happened.)
Re: Ethnic cleansing: 12-13C Norwich
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:30 am
by Jonathan Atkin
I think its possible take samples and test against what you have in your database you might find a hit and trace backwards from there.
Re: Ethnic cleansing: 12-13C Norwich
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:34 am
by Peikko
Alric of Drentha wrote:I'm very skeptical of the ethnic arguments, here. The DNA testing they did is very trendy, and I'm confident that the skeletons are related to each other, but how do you test someone's DNA to show that they're Jewish? There are a lot of assumptions that go into that conclusion, including the troubling idea that Jews have different 'blood' than other Europeans and that Jews never intermarried in the middle ages and thus had some sort of separate genetic markers. Trying to find Jews in the past by studying their genes feels very 1930s to me.
(I'm not just playing the Godwin's Law card in response to this article - there are a number of troublingly racist 19th and early 20th century arguments that are being given new life by forensic science, such as the idea that you can measure someone's race and country of origin by their skull shape or DNA. It's as though the past decades of anthropological work that show that ethnic/racial lines are socially constructed and are often crossed and blurred never happened.)
Indeed, only time will tell if this theory holds up to scrutiny.
Re: Ethnic cleansing: 12-13C Norwich
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:32 pm
by EnglishSteel
Mac wrote:I'm shocked and saddened to see evidence of a "mini pogrom" in England. In my blissful ignorance, I just did not expect the English to do that sort of thing.....
Having the bones, somehow makes it more real and more tangible than if it were a written account.
The human tragedy of it transcends the centuries.
Mac
It wasnt so much a mini pogrom as total and utter ethnic cleansing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... .931190.29http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Expulsion
Re: Ethnic cleansing: 12-13C Norwich
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:59 pm
by Peikko
Of course it's good to take a moment and reflect that, virtually*, every nation and people have at some point in their past been absolutely bastards to somebody who didn't deserve it. Ain't none of us angels.
*and those buggers have just been better about hiding the evidence.
Re: Ethnic cleansing: 12-13C Norwich
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:53 pm
by chef de chambre
Alric of Drentha wrote:I'm very skeptical of the ethnic arguments, here. The DNA testing they did is very trendy, and I'm confident that the skeletons are related to each other, but how do you test someone's DNA to show that they're Jewish? There are a lot of assumptions that go into that conclusion, including the troubling idea that Jews have different 'blood' than other Europeans and that Jews never intermarried in the middle ages and thus had some sort of separate genetic markers. Trying to find Jews in the past by studying their genes feels very 1930s to me.
(I'm not just playing the Godwin's Law card in response to this article - there are a number of troublingly racist 19th and early 20th century arguments that are being given new life by forensic science, such as the idea that you can measure someone's race and country of origin by their skull shape or DNA. It's as though the past decades of anthropological work that show that ethnic/racial lines are socially constructed and are often crossed and blurred never happened.)
Well, the problem with your skepticisim is that we know for a fact that Norwich was ground zero for anti-Semetic attacks in England, with the William of Norwich incident being the initial trigger.
Hate to link to Wikki on this part of the board, but the article is decent and footnoted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_of_NorwichA widespread attack began on the Jewish population in London and York leading to massacres of Jews at London and York. The attacks were soon followed by others throughout England. As a result of Norwich's local nobility's partisanship on behalf of Crusader King Richard's opponents, the local yeomanry and peasantry revolted against the lords and attacked their supporters especially Norwich's Jewish community. On Feb 6 1190, all Norwich Jews who didn't escape to the support of the local castle were slaughtered in their village. The Jews that did escape to the castle committed mass suicide.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... 0&letter=Whttp://oce.catholic.com/index.php?title ... h%2C_SaintI'd also reccommend a gander at mthe following book
Anthony Bale, The Jew in the Medieval Book: English Antisemitisms 1350-1500 (Cambridge University Press, 2006)
I should add, that if anybody was getting dumped down a dry well, February 6th 1190, it wasn't a English Christian family.
Re: Ethnic cleansing: 12-13C Norwich
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:40 am
by Peikko
chef de chambre wrote:...I should add, that if anybody was getting dumped down a dry well, February 6th 1190, it wasn't a English Christian family.
Very true...and if they were that would be remarkable indeed
Re: Ethnic cleansing: 12-13C Norwich
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:33 am
by Norman
Mac wrote:I'm shocked and saddened to see evidence of a "mini pogrom" in England. In my blissful ignorance, I just did not expect the English to do that sort of thing.....
Barring a pre-Christian Greek publication,
the story of William of Norwich was the original blood libel.
Good Englishmen can perhaps console themselves that the sheriff exonerated the Jews in this case.
Unfortunately, this only led to cries of Jewish conspiracy and control of the government.
Re: Ethnic cleansing: 12-13C Norwich
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:36 pm
by chef de chambre
Basically, the lack of surface incidents of Late Medieval anti-Jewish violence in England is entirely due to the 13th century expulsion of its Jews, rather than any better sensibility on the populations part than anywhere else in Europe.
Re: Ethnic cleansing: 12-13C Norwich
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:01 pm
by jarlragnar
Peikko wrote:Mac wrote:I'm shocked and saddened to see evidence of a "mini pogrom" in England. In my blissful ignorance, I just did not expect the English to do that sort of thing.....
Having the bones, somehow makes it more real and more tangible than if it were a written account.
The human tragedy of it transcends the centuries.
Mac
Indeed, the speed with which humanity can turn upon itself is amazing.
http://ddickerson.igc.org/cliffords-tower.html
Civilization is again proven to be a thin veneer.
Re: Ethnic cleansing: 12-13C Norwich
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:38 pm
by Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar
They certainly weren't locals from Norfolk as they only had 10 digits rather than the usual 12.
Re: Ethnic cleansing: 12-13C Norwich
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:17 am
by Peikko
Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar wrote:They certainly weren't locals from Norfolk as they only had 10 digits rather than the usual 12.
N.F.N.