The Armour Archive

I notice a lot of Castles (England, 12th/13th centuries) do not seem to have a huge amount of living space. Even in a large tower, the walls are often so thick that the room is not very spacious.
Was it common for nobles to maintain a manor house to live part of the time?

Yes, manor houses (or palaces for the higher levels of nobility) were the norm; almost all castles were purely military and not meant to be lived in full time (think of them sort of like fire stations now: they had pretty austere living quarters for the "on duty" garrison).

The reading I've done suggests the opposite, actually. The twelfth century saw a huge movement of Western European elites from houses into castles, which were designed to be elite residences, statements of power (especially in England, where the Norman conquerors used castles to write their conquest onto the social landscape in a deliberately visual and military manner), and finally practical places of safety. Check out this book for an excellent and up to date study: http://books.google.com/books/about/Cas ... -ixYkUVcoC

There are different kinds of castles: "refuge castles" tend to be garrison-only until needed, whereas others are full-time, full-population. ymmv based on century and location, though, and I don't know the English stuff very well.

Note that they had different viewpoints on use of space too.

Living ranges tended to be against the walls, and made much lighter than the castles actual defenses, and in the case of England, as the castles were abandoned in the late 15th-16th centuries, the living quarters like the castles were mined for stone and building materials, and decayed even more rapidly than the rest of the fabric.
You are better off looking at extant French, and even better yet, German castles, some of which have remained in continuous occupation in the latter example, right into the present.

To get a visual idea, although it is much restored, look to Hever Castle, which on the inside looks like this

http://images.travelpod.com/users/thesk ... castle.jpg

And on the outside, looks like this

http://great-castles.com/images/hever/hever16-small.jpg.

This sort of building arrangement around the casles interior walls was probably more or less typical by the late 14th century, and obviously, right into the early 16th century,

This is to just give a general idea, not to say that all English castles exactly resembled Hever, merely that almost all of them had buildings ranged around the inside of what we look at as being the castle walls, with that wall as the rear wall of said buildings.

English castles were both homes and fortresses, and fortified homes were commonly occupied in parts of England right up into the 17th century, and even later in some instances. Not all castles were huge like Edward I's ring of masonry to suppress Wales, some were much more humble - in example this pele tower in Elsdon, Redesdale, Northumberland.
http://www.northumbria-byways.com/blog/ ... 798335.JPG

"Not all castles were huge like Edward I's ring of masonry to suppress Wales"

Doubtless they were going to *SING*!

Sorry, couldn't help it...

Just to clarify your terminology and what you mean by noble. Not all nobles lived in castles, if you are including knights as nobles as much of Europe does. Most knights do not seem to have lived in castles. I'd take a look at a book called the Castle Community or English Peerage in the time of Edward III for details. Manor Houses seem fairly common among this group.

Now Nobles in England or gents of Baronial estate and up in the rest of Europe that do seem often to have owned castles the answer changes over time. For example a motte and bailey early on the lord had a home in the outer bailey. The Tower atop the Motte was a last resort. But this changes during the 12th century in large part, though it starts much earlier. Some of the earliest stone castles in France seem to be primary residences by the 11th century. For the the bulk of Europe as castles get more advanced, made in stone and such we see them become increasingly them become primary residences. And I think Chef's comments more or less make me continuing the development superfluous. During the end of the 15th we see more and more nobles living outside castles and into palaces/manors.

As well some fortified manors are simply small castles. As Bob said things like towerhouses and other fortified residences are used for a long time in Europe.

As Russ states though not all castles are the same and in some places, especially on the more peripheral places to western Europe we see much more variety in this.

RPM

Thomas Powers wrote:Note that they had different viewpoints on use of space too.

And "huge living spaces" were hard to heat and keep clean.

That said, the Alcazar in Segovia has some fairly large apartments.

In the low countries, small fortified homes were much more common than huge castles, if you're thinking of strategic fortifications. Lower ranked nobility often lived in quarters like this if they were in such a position. Otherwise they tended to live in the cities, of course.
Unfortunately very few of these homes have survived. Our group annually do a living event in a restored fortified home like this. Last year I made a video of some of our activities. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHjoNaLVlD4

Maybe this will help you to visualize how small it really is. It's comparable with a modern western european family home, but including servants up to maybe a dozen persons lived in such a small place.

Alric of Drentha wrote:The reading I've done suggests the opposite, actually. The twelfth century saw a huge movement of Western European elites from houses into castles, which were designed to be elite residences, statements of power (especially in England, where the Norman conquerors used castles to write their conquest onto the social landscape in a deliberately visual and military manner), and finally practical places of safety. Check out this book for an excellent and up to date study: http://books.google.com/books/about/Cas ... -ixYkUVcoC

I've also noticed some castles from this period (like Richmond and Conisbrough) have large yards/baileys containing ruins of sizable stone buildings, as well as plenty of room for additional wooden buildings. Many castles are just the surviving keep, but I bet most originally had these additional structures.
Perhaps these buildings housed a lot of the actual living and working space, like Chef mentioned.

Kaos wrote:In the low countries, small fortified homes were much more common than huge castles, if you're thinking of strategic fortifications. Lower ranked nobility often lived in quarters like this if they were in such a position. Otherwise they tended to live in the cities, of course.
Unfortunately very few of these homes have survived. Our group annually do a living event in a restored fortified home like this. Last year I made a video of some of our activities. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHjoNaLVlD4

Maybe this will help you to visualize how small it really is. It's comparable with a modern western european family home, but including servants up to maybe a dozen persons lived in such a small place.

Very cool! It isn't very far off from the pele towers of the Anglo-Scottish border, in scale, although I'm afraid your Dutch model looks more comfortable, emphasizing that aspect over security. while the peles are 'tother way round. Then again, A dutch noble is probably a little better off fiscally than a border laird.

Buster wrote:

Alric of Drentha wrote:The reading I've done suggests the opposite, actually. The twelfth century saw a huge movement of Western European elites from houses into castles, which were designed to be elite residences, statements of power (especially in England, where the Norman conquerors used castles to write their conquest onto the social landscape in a deliberately visual and military manner), and finally practical places of safety. Check out this book for an excellent and up to date study: http://books.google.com/books/about/Cas ... -ixYkUVcoC

I've also noticed some castles from this period (like Richmond and Conisbrough) have large yards/baileys containing ruins of sizable stone buildings, as well as plenty of room for additional wooden buildings. Many castles are just the surviving keep, but I bet most originally had these additional structures.
Perhaps these buildings housed a lot of the actual living and working space, like Chef mentioned.

Almost every major English castle you can think of is either entirely, mostly, or partially ruinous. They were abandoned in a big way in the 16th century, excepting border fortresses, some were turned into prisons, or had part of them turned into prisons. A part of the switch was no doubt due to changing fashions, and a desire for greater comfort, and a part of it no doubt had to due with Tudor insecurity in regards to machianations of great lords. Most were used for centuries as rock quarries for local villages and farms.

When you see a major English castle, you pretty much see a skeleton, not the body entire.

A great many were deliberately ripped down during and following the English civil war too.

Buster wrote:

Alric of Drentha wrote:The reading I've done suggests the opposite, actually. The twelfth century saw a huge movement of Western European elites from houses into castles, which were designed to be elite residences, statements of power (especially in England, where the Norman conquerors used castles to write their conquest onto the social landscape in a deliberately visual and military manner), and finally practical places of safety. Check out this book for an excellent and up to date study: http://books.google.com/books/about/Cas ... -ixYkUVcoC

I've also noticed some castles from this period (like Richmond and Conisbrough) have large yards/baileys containing ruins of sizable stone buildings, as well as plenty of room for additional wooden buildings. Many castles are just the surviving keep, but I bet most originally had these additional structures.
Perhaps these buildings housed a lot of the actual living and working space, like Chef mentioned.

By way of example, one of the castles local to me:




Circa 1100



Circa 2012

I think the key is that the question is about the 12th/13th centuries, which one could argue is the heyday of the stone Norman keep. If a lord was warden of such a structure, or it was his (by license), then yes he'd stay in it. Remember, during this time there isn't much privacy in a court, even a relatively small baronial one. The lord and his lady might be the only people in the entire keep to have their own furnished room. It's small (easier to heat) and furniture is at a premium (especially beds, which always have hangins for privacy and to keep in heat). It might seem strange to us, but for the period you're talking about that's high living.

"Non-castled" nobles would have nicer houses; those who could afford castles most likely would have other estates, and those would have houses as well. During the 11th/12th century, the quality of life/standard of living was simply not that high, not even for the wealthy; certainly nothing like even the poor have in this country today. It was just better than most of their contemporaries of a lower class.

By way of example, one of the castles local to me:

Showoff.

Oh, I overlooked that in the original question. I just skimmed the topic, saw Bob's reply and assumed it was a 15th C. thread.

Some more Dutch fortified towerhomes, built in the mid-late 13th c.

Lunenburg


Walenburg

Natewisch

Vleuten (no longer present)

De Nijenbeek
http://www.kasteleninnederland.nl/image ... 081988.jpg

A good number of "castles" in Scotland are more like fortified manor houses, intended to stave off raids by reivers (and the occasional unfriendly neighbour) more than to withstand a serious siege. You know what they say about the Scots, who pray on their knees - and prey on their neighbours!

Bertus,
From the looks of it, the Netherlands was a good place to be a minor noble.

Those look to be about 20-25' on a side, is that about right?

Lunenburg´ plans:

Bertus, are those OF brick, or just faced by brick in later years?

Of brick. Allmost all stone buildings in the Netherlands were made out of brick after c. 1250. Natural stone not being available here. Well, not as cheap as local clay anyway, the NL being a big riverdelta.

I had a couple of questions about Lunenburg if someone could help

Some of the early images show what looks like a bridge across to the entrance on the first floor. Did Lunenburg have a moat?

What is that alcove hanging off the second floor? Was it added later or is it original?

One of the prerequisites of nobles/gentry in the Netherlands was that they lived on a moated site. So anyone building such a tower, with at least the ambition to belong to that class, would have been out of his mind not to include a moat around.
According to a website this is the oldest depiction of the tower, from 1725, and it shows a moat around the place. As does the second one of 1728.





A 1945 view of the tower incorporated into a 19th c. mansion. Having been damaged by the Germans and bombed by the Allies.



I think the plans must have been drawn up after the reconstruction works of 1968-1970, bringing it back to its appearance of before 1800. I suppose putting back the toilet-alcove, as per the drawings, happened at this stage. The door at ground level is relatively modern (the original entrance indeed being at the 1st floor) but out of convenience must have been kept when reverting the tower back to its original look.

Bertus Brokamp wrote:Almost all stone buildings in the Netherlands were made out of brick after c. 1250.

Um . . . really? <W>

Masonry buildings---please allow for translation foibles!

As for creating a moat in the Netherlands, well dragging a stick through the dirt will work in many places. As much of the Netherlands is below sea level ground water levels can be quite high!

My parents lived near Naarden for 4 years so I got to visit.

So given mud and no stone: *Structural* brick
Given water and skills to manipulate it: Moats and more moats! (Look at an aerial shot of old Naarden)

In Germany it was very common for ministeriales administering and protecting land to live in fortified locations during the high medieval period, particularly during the Hohenstaufen era. Most of these would probably have been a lot like the small keeps Bertus already showed us from the Netherlands and occupied by single families. Larger fortifications were built more in Germany than any other part of Europe, though, and certainly many among the minor nobility would find themselves being utilized as garrisons and administrators stationed in the larger castles. Besides the leading nobles in such an arrangement, I'd speculate that the format Chef mentioned, with housing being butted up against walls, would accommodate the rest.

Although I can't recall the name of the city, I know of a 12th century German example where a lord had his ministeriales shack up in a town on his lands in order to maintain his authority over the townsfolk, who were already known for their rabble rousing ways by that period. In each corner of the city wall there was a keep, and a ministerialis and his family moved into each of these sections and hence their names came to be recognized by the corner of the city where they lived, rather than the general area they were from as was most common. Interesting stuff.

Bertus Brokamp wrote:Vleuten (no longer present)

Oh; that would be so wonderful on our tidal cove, near the fenlands. My friends and I have discussed a small timber keep on pilings; but so far we have no evidence of any historic ones. Maybe we should have checked out the Netherlands.

Bertus Brokamp wrote:Lunenburg´ plans

I'm trying to understand how these places worked. It seems that these tower houses didn't have much in the way of a kitchen. Apparently most of the food was prepared across the bridge at the nearby farm and brought over at meal times. Most of the servants would have slept over there as well.

The ground floor would have been a cellar for food stores.
The first floor had the main entrance and a large fireplace. Was this level used for entertainment or did the second floor contain the Hall?
Did the owners sleep on the second floor or the top floor?
Why is there a fireplace on the first and third floors but not the second floor?

Dan,

Not that strange that is where the Lords visiting family slept.

Bertus,

Has anyone written anything in detail on these fortifications? They are similar to some Scot plans use a hundred years later. I wonder if there was a connection. That said fortified towers are a fairly old defensive structure.

RPM