The Armour Archive

Here is a great detail from the manuscript that Tracy J. linked to in the thread on Coifs.

The butt flaps of these hosen have metalic loops. This is not the only example of this I have seen, but it is a good one.http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8 ... /f576.item

Mac


(corrected spelling)

Cool!

Though you sure they aren't butt spurs, Mac?



Max VH

Mac wrote:Here is a great detail from the manuscript that Tracy J. linked to in the thread on Coifs.

The butt flaps of these hosen have metalis loops. This is not the only example of this I have seen, but it is a good one.http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8 ... /f576.item[

Mac
Is there a firm date for this manuscript, 1301-1400 is quite a spread. I'm trying to track down examples of a transitional hose between split & joined.
Basically, the sort that come up high, each leg top half way around the waist, no cod piece, maybe pointed to a belt under the doublet.
Ranif

Mandragore gives it as 1385-1390, Milanese.
http://mandragore.bnf.fr/jsp/imprimerNo ... bPages=735

I never thought of them being metal. Hmm.

maxntropy wrote:Cool!

Though you sure they aren't butt spurs, Mac?



Max VH

I hope not.

Mac

James B. wrote:I never thought of them being metal. Hmm.

Here is a detail of the back of the right leg of the executioner of John the Baptist in Rogier van der Vayden's painting. In this case, the loop is not colored like metal. It sort of looks like a ring that has been covered over with thread, like a buttonhole.



Mac

Great pics Mac. Though I cant help think of :

Click it or tick it? Click it or kick it?

http://unique-imaging.net/fdlebay/Ford2 ... -AAA-3.jpg





.

Mac wrote:Here is a great detail from the manuscript that Tracy J. linked to in the thread on Coifs.

The butt flaps of these hosen have metalic loops. This is not the only example of this I have seen, but it is a good one.http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8 ... /f576.item

Mac


(corrected spelling)

Not to side track things but count the buttons on the sleeve!
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8 ... /f576.zoom
Zoom & Pan to see the details.

btw it is worth mentioning we do have evidence of metal hook/loops in use during the 16th and they came into widespread use during the 17th century. These were used for holding up breeches to doublets. So its not a stretch to imagine hook and loops of some sort 'began' somewhere....

I know English and German clothing from about 1550 onward. But the Italian Renaissance experts would have to chime in with evidence of metal hooks/loops as used in the 1400s and 1500s to see if its the hint of an evolutionary line we are spotting.

Ranif wrote: Mac
Is there a firm date for this manuscript, 1301-1400 is quite a spread. I'm trying to track down examples of a transitional hose between split & joined.
Basically, the sort that come up high, each leg top half way around the waist, no cod piece, maybe pointed to a belt under the doublet.
Ranif

The date range that Ernst found (1385 90) sounds pretty good to me.

I think we are seeing two separate legs here. The fact that we can see the pouch of his breas argues against the idea of the legs being joined.

Mac

I saw that, Mac, but didn't want to derail the other thread. In thinking about what the loops could be made of I'm inclined toward metal too. The guys who'd need to regularly unfasten/refasten their hose in order to bend over would be laborer-types who'd get sweaty. Leather or thread based loops would deteriorate and become unusable under those circumstances.

A possible reason for the hook and eye fastening (as opposed to points, which we see frequently) is that it's exclusively for men who need to drop their drawers quickly. In the 16th c, when doublets and breeches were laced together, a feature called a martingale was devised for men who had bowel trouble and needed to drop trou quickly. Cosimo di Medici was buried in breeches with a martingale. Since both the men who have loops on their hose are in the process of martyring saints it may be an artist's subtle commentary. Of course this is purely speculative on my part.

Tracy

Tracy,

I get the impression that we are looking at a system where the center back "point" has been replaced with a hook and eye system for the convenience of guys who will need to bend freely in their work. The rest of St. John's executioner's hosen have the usual laces with metal agletts. I presume that this is typical.

By contrast, the Charles de Blois doublet has the center-back point made in leather, while the rest of them are fabric. This suggests that the center back is the one that is under the most stress. (no surprise) Perhaps it predates the innovation, or perhaps it's just too nice a doublet to have a "quick release butt".

As an aside, at some point in time it looks like the "points" move from being attached to the doublet to being loose, but associated with the hosen. Perhaps is is related to the question of whether or not the skirt of the doublet covers the points or not....Which, I suppose is related to whether or not the doublet is intended to be seen, or covered.

Mac

PartsAndTechnical wrote:btw it is worth mentioning we do have evidence of metal hook/loops in use during the 16th and they came into widespread use during the 17th century. These were used for holding up breeches to doublets. So its not a stretch to imagine hook and loops of some sort 'began' somewhere....

I know English and German clothing from about 1550 onward. But the Italian Renaissance experts would have to chime in with evidence of metal hooks/loops as used in the 1400s and 1500s to see if its the hint of an evolutionary line we are spotting.

Drew,

We can see hooks and eyes as early as the Gaston Phoebus manuscripts of the early 15th C. Here, they are closing the ankles of the huntsmen's leather riding boots.

Mac

Tom B. wrote:
Not to side track things but count the buttons on the sleeve!
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8 ... /f576.zoom
Zoom & Pan to see the details.

Let me use this opportunity to promote the small buttons of Billy and Charlies's Finest Quality Pewter Goods. http://billyandcharlie.com/bell.html

Mac

Good to know. I guess I hadnt spotted that yet Mac. Danke

btw someone posted on online manuscript site and I recall seeing a "mooning" fella (clearly bent over) where we could glimpse of his hose.....Im foggy right now. I know I saw it here or in a facebook group.