Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

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Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Sean M »

"What, if anything, did a late 14th century soldier put on below the waist before the leg harness?"

This thread is the third, and probably the least useful, in a series on arming garments in the late 14th century (for part 1 see here, and for part 2 see here).

As always, I would like to focus on sources (including scholarly comments on those sources) over people's experience. Most people on this forum have found a solution which works for them, and many are familiar with diverse sources, but there are not so many systematic discussions of the evidence.

I have a few things already. What evidence do you know about? What places might be good to look? I will continue to edit this post to add evidence as people provide it, but I am too busy to do much more work on my own.

Key Question
Most English-speaking scholars and re-enactors follow How a Man Shall be Armed and posit ordinary braes, common hosen, a pair of shoes with cord on the soles to help grip and points on top to tie the sabattons down, and some blanket wound about the knee to pad it. Does all the evidence fit this theory?

Written Sources

Assorted Norwegian and German sources (1215-1370): Several sources mention a garment called a lendenier which was wrapped around the waist and held up the mail chauses. Fourteenth century sources specify that these were made from quilted cloth, while earlier texts do not give these details. See here and on a Swedish forum on a Swedish forum where the Old Norse King's Mirror is also cited.
Unknown, tr. Bertus Brocamp wrote: zwô hosen wîz ûz îsen
hiez er im ane brîsen
vaste, niht swaere,
wan er gerne lîhte waere.
er vuor in stricken als ein tier.
ein harte guoten lendenier (a hard good loin belt)
den bant er umde die huf (this he bound around his hips)
und nestelte die hosen darûf (and laced his hosen to this)

ame lendenier si entstricket wart (From the loin belt they unlaced)
von der hurteclichen vart, (because of the quick canter)
Diu iserhose sanc uf den sporn: (The iron hosen sank to his spurs)
des wart sin blankez bein verlorn. (thus he lost his white legs)
Unknown document with parallel German and French, c. 1371 Bruges, tr. Bertus Brocamp wrote:Donaes, de pourpointstickere, sal mi maken een wambies ende een lendenier.
Donas, le pourpointier, me fera un pourpoint et unes estraintes.
"Donaes, the doubletmaker, shall make me a doublet and a 'lendenier'".
Limburger Chronik, c. 1370, transcribed by Bertus Brocamp, edition unknown wrote:In derselbigen zit da gingen an die Westfeilschen lendenire. Dy waren also, daz ritter, knechte unde reisige lüde furten lendenire, unde gingen an der brost ane, hinden uff dem rucke hart zugespannet unde wanten also verre als dy schufe lang was unde was hart gesteppet, bynach eynes fingers dicke. Und qwam daz uss Westfalenlande.
Bertus Brocamp wrote:For the mid-late 14th century we know from the Limburger Chronicle this loin belt was still in use and was laced tight in the back, padded hard almost a finger thick, and as long as the jupon. And in a c. 1370 document from Bruges it says this belt was made by the guys who also made pourpoints, so I reckon he made them padded and quilted as well.
Anonymous formulary from Guyenne (French, 13th or 14th century, written in French) published as "Formalités des duels et combats judiciares en Guyenne dans les XIIIe ou XIIIe siècles," Bulletin trimestriel de la société de Borda Dax (Landes) (1914) Premier Trimestre pp. 73-87 link. I thank Ariella Elema of Toronto for the link and RScivias for help with vocabulary. This intriguing document lists various pieces of kit and clothing which participants in a judicial duel could be required to wear. For this thread, the most important ones are Chausses de toile (p. 81: leggings of cloth), Caleçons de toile (p. 81: underwear/shorts of cloth), Braguer ab las troissas (p. 82: short breeches with the necessary belts and hooks), Causses de lin et de drap (p. 82: leggings of linen and wool), Sabatons frachis (p. 82: the 18th century editor understood these as "souliers de fer à lames brisées" / iron stripped shoes), Esperons garnits (p. 82: spurs with the necessary accessories), Cosfas, de draps et de cambys (p. 82: I can't translate this), Culotte avec les ceintures et les agrafes garnies (p. 82: short breeches supplied with belts and hooks), Chausses de lin et de drap (p. 82: linen or wool leggings). I see no sign of paddings of thin blanket.

Anonymous, Modus Armandi Milites (English, circa 1320s): This short text lists what a man-at-arms should wear for a tournament, for war, and for a joust. Unfortunately, the second two sections are very brief, and the whole document is written concisely in a mix of Latin, French, and English. Moffat's translation goes: „First light a fire and roll out the carpet and strip to the shirt. Brush back the hair. On the feet [place] boots of leather. Arm the shins with greaves (in French mustylers) of steel or cuir bouilli. Thence quysouns on the thighs and genicularia (in French genulers). Thence aketon and thence a shirt of Chartres and a coif of Chartres, and a basin in which there ought to be a cerveylere to defend the head lest the basin come in contact with the head. Thence hauberk, cuirass, coat armour upon which will be the knights’ blazon, and gaignepains or gauntlets of baleen, his espeye that is sword, and flail, and helm that is heaume.” (Arms & Armour Vol. 7 No. 1 [2010] pp. 5-29). This knight implicitly wears braes and hosen and explicitly wears boots of leather.

Anonymous, account entry for the house of Jan van Blois (Holland, 1361/2) : Item tot eenen paer kousen sine yseren lappen op te nayen ende op te wapenen 4&½ quartier ghemenghets 18 s. "For a pair of hosen to sew and arm his iron patches on, 4&½ quarters of mixed (colourwise) cloth [cost] 18 s." (tr. Bertus Brocamp on this forum; first published as Doorninck, Pieter Nicolaas van (1899), De tocht van Jan van Blois met hertog Aelbrecht naar Gelre, Nov. 1362, naar het oorspronkelijke handschrift uitgegeven door P.N. v. Doorninck; Rekening van Jan van Blois 1361-1362. Haarlem: Van Brederode.)

Geoffrey Chaucer, The Tale of Sir Topas lines 858-868 (English, written roughly 1386-1400): Chaucer tells a silly story about a Flemmish knight preparing to fight a giant. The good Sir Topas wears fine linen braes (lines 857-9) and leg harness of hardened leather (line 875).

Johan Hill, Treatise of Worship in Arms (England, 1434). Johan Hill recommends hosen of corde without vampeys cut at the knees and lined with linen cloth, a pair of red leather shoes with thin laces fretted uderneath with whippcord and pierced. The context is a judicial duel and these instructions are meant to give the fighter every possible advantage in that context.
Johann Hill wrote:First hym nedeth to have a paire of hosen of corde wtoute vampeys And the saide hosen kutte at ye knees and lyned wtin wt Lynnen cloth byesse as the hose is A payre of shoen of red Lether thynne laced & fretted underneth wt whippecorde & persed, And above withinne Lyned wt Lynnen cloth three fyngers in brede double & byesse from the too an yncle above ye wriste. And so behinde at ye hele from the Soole halfe a quarter of a yearde uppe this is to fasten wele to his Sabatons And the same Sabatons fastened under ye soole of ye fote in 2 places.
I do not have time right now to research and gloss his vocabulary. Link.

Anonymous, Traité du Costume Militaire des Français, 1446 (French, 1446): Can someone with better French than I tell us if it says anything relevant? Link

Anonymous, How a Man Shall be Armed (English, circa 1450): Texts are very easy to find online. The knight should wear a pair of hosen of stamyn sengill, a pair of short bulwarks of thin blanket to wear about his knees for the chafing of his legharness, and a pair of shoes of thick cordwain with points on top and two patches of whipcord sewn to the bottom of the soles. What is the best edition and commentary? ffoulkes has one on page 107.

Published Opinions
Singman and McLean
Ffoulkes
Blair pp. 53, 77
Douglas "Talbot" Strong, Armour Archive Forum Post, 2006-2007: "Some of the surviving pieces from the 14th century have lining rivets on the inside. There are quite a few surviving 16th century armours that are full lined with gamboised linings. ... As I have handled more and more extant 14th century pieces I am begining to see a trend of rivets set on the insides along the edges indicating bands to which linings were once sewn. I saw more than one example of this in my recent European trip. I am becoming more and more convinced that much (most?) 14th century armour was fully lined, possibly like the example above. This is especially true of legs. ... I have seen some suggestions of linings on legs in Leeds, Higgins, Statens Historiska and elsewhere." Link.
Last edited by Sean M on Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:20 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Sean M »

Manuscript Illustrations
Arming scenes are not common in art of this period, and often show the gentleman with his leg harness already on.

"Capture of Don Pedro," La chanson de Bertrand du Guesclin Yates Thompson 35 (Paris, 1380-1392) folio 246r: A sleeping soldier wears a white cloth coif, doublet, and hosen. Are these arming garments? Link and Link.

Unknown Old Testament Battle Scene, Wenzel Bible (ONB Codex Vindobondensis 2762) (Germany, 1389) folio 14: Some soldiers behead a fallen king and pull off his bascinet and haubergeon. He seems to wear a plain doublet and ordinary hose. Link.
Image

Roman de Giron le Courtoise BNF Nouvelle Acquisition Francais 5243 (Milan, late 14th century): This Arthurian romance has several interesting pictures. Unfortunately, it appears pale in the scans. Folio 14v shows another rerebrace strapped to the upper arm over the sleeves of the haubergeon. Folio 25r shows a man wearing a doublet and vambraces being beseeched by a lady. The doublet looks like the ones worn by gentlemen elsewhere in the manuscript, but few details are clear. Folio 26r shows a disarming scene with the wrong things visible. Link (25r beseeching) and Link (26r disarming)

Image

Anonymous tr., Livre des Nobles Femmes BNF Francais 589 (Paris, before February 1403): Folio 103v has an arming scene. A gentleman in a white doublet laced to mi-parti hosen is kneeling and starting to pull on a hauberk. A bascinet with aventail, haubergeon, iron gauntlets, and iron greaves rest in front of him. I am a bit suspicious of the date, because some elements of the fashion feel later than 1403, but they say that it was given to the Duc Jean du Berry in February 1404. Link.

Image

Image with "King Siphax" from the second thread: This captured king wears an arming doublet with quilted body and many points at the waist. His legs are either bare or covered with tight hosen rolled up at the ankles.

More images from eg. the Wenzel Bible as I have time or people suggest them ...
Last edited by Sean M on Sat Jan 13, 2024 1:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Gustovic »

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4053/11440/
Is the brick-pattern thing that these knights are wearing padded chausses?
The fact that they are white and not of the same color of the chainmail suggests so... =)
Or they are something else (scale/lamellar)?

Here they are just with the poleyn
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4053/11469/
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Ernst »

Ah. The old Munich "panzerhose" construction question... I'm sure these have been discussed a few times before.
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/MI02351b11a.jpg
http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... rhose.html
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Sean M »

Keep them coming. I added a link to a Wenzel Bible pic in the OP and will add Gustovic's suggestions.

Surely there are texts from outside England and France? Bertus' account gives us one.
Gustovic wrote:http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4053/11440/
Is the brick-pattern thing that these knights are wearing padded chausses?
The fact that they are white and not of the same color of the chainmail suggests so... =)
Or they are something else (scale/lamellar)?

Here they are just with the poleyn
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4053/11469/
I think that in your second picture, the colour of the inner garment on the leg matches the padded gambesons and sleeves, so it is probably some sort of quilted padding. An interesting contrast to Blair's idea that leg defenses in the second quarter of the 14th century consisted of brigandine from hip to below the knee with a plate riveted over the knee.

Edit: Buster, however, points out that the Flemmish Romance of Alexander shows leg defenses of the same vertical, rectangular plates in a brickwork pattern. These are usually steel coloured in this manuscript. See http://manuscriptminiatures.com/romance ... ey-264/20/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/romance ... ey-264/34/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/romance ... ey-264/36/
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Sean M »

Anonymous fresco, Chiesa di San Forenzio, Bastia Mondovi, Italy, middle of the 15th century (town's website says art is style of 1440s or 1450s but armour and fashion in this scene look a few decades younger): This fresco shows a group of common infantry marching. One wears miparti hose in red and white, a pair of greaves, and an outer garment with red points appearing under the hem of his skirt and black points knotted where his yellow coat meets the upper cannons of his vambraces. He has no padding at his knees. Another soldier wears similar hose, no greaves or legharnesss, and has red points knotted outside the white skirt of his coat. Thanks to Tom Biliter for the link and Andrea Carloni for the photos. Link

Image

A group of mid to late 15th century paintings at the Oratorio dei Buonomini di San Martino, Firenze, show a gentleman wearing greaves but no other legharness over red hose. This implies that he did not put on any padding at the knee before he put on his greaves. Link (to Andrea Carloni's flickr album).

Image
Last edited by Sean M on Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Mac »

It's sort of funny that we so many pics of Italian men at arms who are wearing greaves without cuisses. I wonder if they really did that, or whether the artists are styling them as ancient Romans. Either way, they are not shown to have any additional padding around their knees. If additional padding were the commonly done thing, I imagine that the artist would have shown it, even for Romans, just because "that's what arming hosen look like".

I have seen a number of examples of knee armor where the upper (underlapped) edge of the demigreave was supplied with what appear to be lining holes. Since there are typically no other unexplained holes inside the knee, I am guessing that they we meant to secure some sort of "kneeling pad". I have built a pair of legs with just such pads, and they were well received and found to be comfortable and convenient. It's a wild ass'd guess, but it works fine.

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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Tom B. »

Sean Manning wrote: Thanks to Tom Biliter for the link and Andrea Carloni for the photos. Link
Not trying to derail the thread.

Thanks for listing out all of those sources, I am going to look at a few of those for info relevant to the mails sleeves thread that Mac started.
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Sean M »

Mac wrote:It's sort of funny that we so many pics of Italian men at arms who are wearing greaves without cuisses. I wonder if they really did that, or whether the artists are styling them as ancient Romans. Either way, they are not shown to have any additional padding around their knees. If additional padding were the commonly done thing, I imagine that the artist would have shown it, even for Romans, just because "that's what arming hosen look like".

I have seen a number of examples of knee armor where the upper (underlapped) edge of the demigreave was supplied with what appear to be lining holes. Since there are typically no other unexplained holes inside the knee, I am guessing that they we meant to secure some sort of "kneeling pad". I have built a pair of legs with just such pads, and they were well received and found to be comfortable and convenient. It's a wild ass'd guess, but it works fine.

Mac
Thanks Mac. I have added some things which might be relevant to the "any extant mail like this?" thread to the first post on Arming Garments part II thread, including a curious fragment of an arming scene.

Most cultures with greaves didn't suspend them from armour and garments higher up the body. Perhaps these guys had such comfortable greaves that that they didn't bother taking them off?
Tom B. wrote:Not trying to derail the thread.

Thanks for listing out all of those sources, I am going to look at a few of those for info relevant to the mails sleeves thread that Mac started.
Fixed.
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by James Arlen Gillaspie »

Mac wrote:
It's sort of funny that we so many pics of Italian men at arms who are wearing greaves without cuisses. I wonder if they really did that, or whether the artists are styling them as ancient Romans. Either way, they are not shown to have any additional padding around their knees. If additional padding were the commonly done thing, I imagine that the artist would have shown it, even for Romans, just because "that's what arming hosen look like".

I have seen a number of examples of knee armor where the upper (underlapped) edge of the demigreave was supplied with what appear to be lining holes. Since there are typically no other unexplained holes inside the knee, I am guessing that they we meant to secure some sort of "kneeling pad". I have built a pair of legs with just such pads, and they were well received and found to be comfortable and convenient. It's a wild ass'd guess, but it works fine.

Mac

The way I read that is that the whole leg was lined, with a leather strip to attach the liner to, secured by rivets at the top of the cuisse and attached at the bottom by a strip secured by the holes at the top of the lowest lame, with other strips attached around the edges of the cuisse. Such a complete liner would mean a lot less wear on one's hose! Churburg might have some examples one way or another.
The Italian infantry that carry the big oval shields are often shown wearing greaves, a single greave, or just the front of a greave, and often sabatons. Examples would be from the Battle of San Romano paintings, Carpaccio's paintings (he very rarely seems to deviate from the equipment seen in his own day and place, even when dealing with ancient subjects) and the sculptures from the Castel Nuovo, Naples. Pisanello did some sketches of such infantry at practice, c. 1430, and they are shown wearing Y shaped straps for holding up their greaves, which makes me wonder why the later ones show no such thing.
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Eachann »

Along these same lines, is it prevalent/common/rare/unheard of, to wear sabatons without greaves in the 14th and 15th centuries?
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Ian L »

Eachann wrote:Along these same lines, is it prevalent/common/rare/unheard of, to wear sabatons without greaves in the 14th and 15th centuries?
Among the knightly class once maille chausses go away as the primary leg defense we see greaves or schynbalds on virtually every effigy for the rest of the Middle Ages. It's the sabatons that are optional, and even then, the vast majority of effigies depict full sabatons. I'm sure there's some counterexample out there somewhere, so I will say it's very rare since I can't say for certain someone somewhere didn't try out sabatons without greaves.
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Ernst »

Since the 15th century treatise thread brought up the question, how were mail voiders held in place behind the plate poleyn, greaves, and cuisses? Were they stitched directly to the hosen, pointed to them, attached to a pair of linen shorts, or was the mail a long brayette?
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Sean M »

Ernst wrote:Since the 15th century treatise thread brought up the question, how were mail voiders held in place behind the plate poleyn, greaves, and cuisses? Were they stitched directly to the hosen, pointed to them, attached to a pair of linen shorts, or was the mail a long brayette?
See the Jan van Blois account for one 14th century solution. When Johan Hill speaks of "close cuisses with voiders of plate or of mail" in the same breath, he might be implying that the mail is attached to the legharness just like plate at the back of the knee is. Edit: I can't speak to other possibilities.
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

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James Arlen Gillaspie wrote: The way I read that is that the whole leg was lined, with a leather strip to attach the liner to, secured by rivets at the top of the cuisse and attached at the bottom by a strip secured by the holes at the top of the lowest lame, with other strips attached around the edges of the cuisse. Such a complete liner would mean a lot less wear on one's hose! Churburg might have some examples one way or another.
The Italian infantry that carry the big oval shields are often shown wearing greaves, a single greave, or just the front of a greave, and often sabatons. Examples would be from the Battle of San Romano paintings, Carpaccio's paintings (he very rarely seems to deviate from the equipment seen in his own day and place, even when dealing with ancient subjects) and the sculptures from the Castel Nuovo, Naples. Pisanello did some sketches of such infantry at practice, c. 1430, and they are shown wearing Y shaped straps for holding up their greaves, which makes me wonder why the later ones show no such thing.

Good observation James. I've been trying to figure out how to mount a mail gusset behind my knee. I will definitely scrutinize the Pisanello sketches more carefully.
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Mac »

Item tot eenen paer kousen sine yseren lappen op te nayen ende op te wapenen 4&½ quartier ghemenghets 18 s. "For a pair of hosen to sew and arm his iron patches on, 4&½ quarters of mixed (colourwise) cloth [cost] 18 s."
That's a good one. Somehow it did not catch my eye the first time through.

Having gussets of plate mounted directly to the back of the knee armor like is done in later examples is a possibility. Likewise, mail could be mounted by stitching it through holes or with lining strips: but I can only bring to mind one (16thC vambraces) with mail gussets like that.

The contemporary English effigies show closed cuisses with mail voiders, but there is no indication that the mail is attached. The sculptors show the mail behind the plates. That probably means that the mail is not attached to the plates, but it could be attached to lining strips that are flush riveted to the plates. The sculptors would probably not have bothered to show us the rivets is this were the case.

If the mail were attached to holes in the plates, the more conscientious sculptors would probably have indicated this. Since none of the surviving English effigies from this time (or for that matter from 1400 to 1500) show this, I think it is unlikely to have been typical.

(edited and expanded)

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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by James Arlen Gillaspie »

I tracked that Pisanello sketch down. This is scanned from a bad photocopy. I hope someone can find a better version of it. As well as the greave suspenders on the left, there seems to be a fellow with full legs, or at least one complete leg, on the right grasping an opponent's arm.
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Signo »

Mac, some friend of mine, found another instance (from germany) that talk about maille patches stitched in the elbows.
The writing is called something like "Chronicles of Limburg an der Lahn"
That is this place:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limburg_an_der_Lahn
The interesting passage is this:
[...] die Unterwämse hatten enge Armen unde in dem Gewerbe [alternatively: Gelenk] waren si benehet unde behaft mit Stucken von Panzern, daz nante man Musisen [alternatively: Mauseisen].

[...] L’abito portato sotto avrà una stretta manica, e nell’articolazione tu cucirai e fisserai con il filo in pezzi l’armatura di maglia. Questo è chiamato un “Mauseisen”.

That can be translated something like (I don't know german, so I translate from the italian translation): "The garment below will have a tight sleeve, and in the joint you will sew and fix with thread the maille patches. This is called "Mauseisen".
I don't know the general topic that is talked , so I don't know the context of this thing.
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Signo »

The full text in a 1828 edition:
http://gdz.sub.uni-goettingen.de/dms/lo ... DOC=299847
If someone can read it, It would be interesting to see what they are talking about. The passage should be around page 46.
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Bertus Brokamp »

Signo, this is my translation of that passage, which I posted in 2010 on the forum and in the musekin thread that Ernst started in 2013:

"The underdoublets had narrow arms and in the articulations/joints they were besewn and fitted with pieces of haubergeons, these were called 'mus'irons."
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Signo »

Thank you Bertus, do you know why he say so, what he is talking about? A judicial duel, a tourney, a battle..
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Bertus Brokamp »

He is just describing the manner of armour that was worn in general in his area. This is the whole paragraph.

Item in der selben zit da vurgingen di platen in disen landen, unde di reisige lude, herren, ritter unde knechte furten alle schopen, panze unde huben. Da achte man reisige lude an honder oder zweihondert man mit huben. Item di manirunge unde gestalt von den schupen hatten bescheiden lengde, unde di arme wanten endeiles ein spanne von der asselen oder zwo spanne, unde endeiles hatten nit me dan da man di armen ussstiss. Unde hatten siden qwesten hinden nider hangen, daz was freidicheit. Item die underwamse hatten enge armen unde in dem gewerbe waren si benehet unde behaft mit stucken von panzern, daz nante man musisen.

Quick translation by me:
"Item in these same times (1351), came about the (coat of) plates in these lands, and the mounted people, lords, knights and squires all wore jupons, haubergeons and bascinets. It is estimated there were some hundred or two hundred mounted people with bascinets. (I presume he is still talking about his home region) Item the manner and form of the jupons (was that they) were modest in length, and the sleeves, some (half?) of them measured a span or two spans from the armpits, and some (half?) had no more sleeve than (the hole) which the arms stick out of. And they had silk tassels hanging down on the back, this was jolly/stylish. And the underdoublets had narrow sleeves, and in the joints they were sewn and fitted with pieces of haubergeons, these were called musisen."

--> some / half, the word endeile means 'a part', so I'm not sure if he means the two parts (half sleeves versus no sleeves) make up the whole group of jupon sleeve types, or if he is omitting the full sleeve version.
Last edited by Bertus Brokamp on Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Signo »

OH this is very interesting! Thank you!
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Bertus Brokamp »

Btw, I used this edition:

Wyss, Arthur (1883), Die Limburger Chronik des Tilemann Elhen von Wolfhagen. Monumenta Germaniae Historica Tomi IV, Pars I; Deutsche Chroniken und andere Geschichtsbücher des Mittelalters, 4. Band, 1. Abtheilung. Hannover: Hanse Buchhandlung.

The edition you linked to, Signo, uses modern German spelling (modern for 1828 anyway).
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Ernst »

Bertus, I trust you won't object if I block copy your fuller translation back on to the musekins thread for further discussion?
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Bertus Brokamp »

Not at all
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by RandallMoffett »

Well Bertus that is indeed illuminating. But does make confusion as to what the other likely mail arm armour is then??? perhaps slippery terms is playing a part as well.

I am wondering all sorts of things now. 1st we see the mail and pair of plates combo still but sleeveless habergeon on some but they wore strips of mail on the inside sleeve of their arming doublet? Is this to accommodate plate? Interesting that he goes into so much detail on the jupon as well. Some long, some short and others no sleeved.

Alright Ernst- what are we looking at?

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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Sean M »

The interesting discussion about sleeves and gussets of mail would be excellent content for the second thread since these were not worn on the lower body. The John Lydgate quote is relevant to it.
Mac wrote:Having gussets of plate mounted directly to the back of the knee armor like is done in later examples is a possibility. Likewise, mail could be mounted by stitching it through holes or with lining strips: but I can only bring to mind one (16thC vambraces) with mail gussets like that.
I am definitely not saying “that is one way they did it” just that mail gussets attached to straps or padding inside the armour might look the same way as mail gussets in the art.
James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:I tracked that Pisanello sketch down. This is scanned from a bad photocopy. I hope someone can find a better version of it. As well as the greave suspenders on the left, there seems to be a fellow with full legs, or at least one complete leg, on the right grasping an opponent's arm.
Thanks for the photo. Do you have a citation to the manuscript?
DIS MANIBUS GUILLELMI GENTIS MCLEANUM FAMILIARITER GALLERON DICTI
VIR OMNIBUS ARTIBUS PERITUS
Check out Age of Datini: European Material Culture 1360-1410
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Croquart »

Ernst wrote:Ah. The old Munich "panzerhose" construction question... I'm sure these have been discussed a few times before.
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/MI02351b11a.jpg
http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... rhose.html
this Panzerhose is now on display in the Bavarian Army Museum in Ingolstadt. It reopened around 3 Weeks ago and now they also show their Coat of Plates (found 2002 in Passau).
They also show X-ray photographs of the Panzerhosen.
It's propably possible to reconstruct it, if you could visit the museum, as you can get very close to it from different angles and can see the stichtings etc.
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Mac »

Croquart wrote:
this Panzerhose is now on display in the Bavarian Army Museum in Ingolstadt. It reopened around 3 Weeks ago and now they also show their Coat of Plates (found 2002 in Passau).
They also show X-ray photographs of the Panzerhosen.
It's propably possible to reconstruct it, if you could visit the museum, as you can get very close to it from different angles and can see the stichtings etc.
Excellent!

It's good to see the X-ray pic. I remember having a hard time trying to convince everyone that they really did have iron plates sewn into them. Now, it is clear and undeniable.

Image

I wonder if we will ever get people to understand that these are armor in their own right, and not something that goes on under plate. :roll:

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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Tom B. »

Here is our Panzer Hosen discussion thread that is probably a better place to to discuss these:

Panzer Hosen
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by RWWT »

Hi everyone. I am just getting back to indulging my armor fetish after a long hiatus. I've been lurking around here on and off for some time and it's humbling and thrilling benefit from the immense base of knowledge and experience here.

I have long had questions about leg lining. I'm currently doing some research in preparation for making late 14th century legs and keep coming across what looks to me like lining strips, like these:

Image

It seems like the consensus here was inconclusive on lining. Any other thoughts? I am sorely tempted to try a fairly lightly quilted lining that extends from the cuisse to the knee but I keep debating on how that might impact function. Any thoughts?
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Mac »

RWWT wrote: It seems like the consensus here was inconclusive on lining. Any other thoughts? I am sorely tempted to try a fairly lightly quilted lining that extends from the cuisse to the knee but I keep debating on how that might impact function. Any thoughts?
Whatever you decide to do about linings, I recommend that you keep them thin. A single layer of canvas or thin leather like goat, deer, or chamois might be the thing.

There is already a very strong tendency for reenactors to make their leg armor too bulky, and including a thick lining will take you further away from authentic lines.

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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by RWWT »

Thanks Mac! Funny that you mention that. I was just having a conversation with a friend along the same lines (pun not intended but appropriate). I fear to lose authentic lines and want to stay far away from the bulkiness you mention.

Did you have any other thoughts on how the "lining strips" might have been used? The tendency toward bulkiness and grossly oversized knees has long caused me to frown at a lot of reenactment armor. I'm quite surprise to see theses as it seems to contradict my long held belief that the plate should very closely follow the lines and curves of the body.

Side note- and please forgive my squeeing like a teenage girl upon seeing the Beatles- your work has been an inspiration for a very long time and your posts here have opened my eyes to more things that I'd ever considered. Thanks for helping me learn to see. My work, while poor, is immeasurably better than I'd hoped for while getting back into this. This direct result of all you've shared. I cannot thank you enough.
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs

Post by Otto von Teich »

Glad I noticed this! I was going to add liners to some reproduction late 15th cent gothic cuisses. I added the lining strips years ago but never got around to making them. I remember asking Mac the same questions. I wanted to make a padded liner at the time. I remember Mac saying if I was going to go with a padded liner to make it very thin. Maybe I'll finally start on this and just go with a single layer. Should be easier to boot! Thanks again Mac!
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