Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

[Tom B.]

Here is what I believe to be an example of what Bob was talking about.
This is from one of the Caeser tapestries in Bern.

[Mac]

OK. So now I am confused.

Here are two horsemen from a Gaston Pheobus hunting book. The one on the right has that thing going on at the knees. The one on the left has the tops of his boots(?) turned down. Are these guys both wearing the same sort of thing?.... or is it two different things?



Also... How do these "houseaux" differ from boots? Surely they have soles like boots, or they would not stay over the foot. They have a folded closure like the "St Martin" style boot in Marquita Volken's typology. (Archeaological Footwear, p.160) Is the cut at the knee the only thing that distinguishes them from boots per se?

Mac

[Mac]

These knees remind me of the leather gauntlet fingers we discussed a couple of months ago. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=172691



Mac

[Ckanite]

Here's something that I've always found odd about these, why only the crescent cuts? Why not just remove the whole thing?

[Tom B.]

I think these must be houseaux hanging on the rod.

Click on the image below to go to a high resolution version.

[Tom B.]

I thought this thread worth reviving.
Maybe in the last 3 years there is new information or ideas about the original passage.

[Tom B.]

Any new thoughts about this now?

Tom B brought this document up in another thread. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=168360&start=35

It seems to me to be such an important document as to warrant its own thread. For convenience, I will take an excerpt from the version that Will McLean (Galleron) has on his blog. http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... johan.html I am mostly concerned with the arming of the combatants , and not the formalities of the duel, so I have not copied the whole thing.

TRAYTESE OF THE POYNTES OF WORSHIP IN ARMES BY JOHAN HYLL,
ARMORER SERGEANT IN THE KINGE’S ARMORY 1434
Bod. Lib., Ashmole. MS. 856, art. 22, pp. 376—~83

[376] Too my leve Lordes here nowe next folowinge is a Traytese compyled by Johan Hyll Armorier Sergeant in the office of Armory wt, Kinges Henry ye 4th and Henry ye 5th of ye poyntes of Worship in Armes and how he shall be diversely Armed & gouverned under supportacion of faveurof alle ye Needes to coverte adde & amenuse where nede is by the high comandement of the Princes that have powair so for to ordeyne & establishe

The first Honneur in Armes is a Gentilman to fight in his Souverain Lords quarell in a bataille of Treason sworne withinne Listes before his souverain Lorde whether he be Appellant or Defendant ye houneur is his that winneth ye feelde.

As for the appellant thus Armed by his owne witte or by his counsaille wch is assigned to him before Conestabie & Marchall ye wch Counsaille is ordeyned & bounden to teche hym alle maner of fightynge & soteltees of Armes that longeth for a battaile sworne

First hym nedeth to have a paire of hosen of corde wtoute vampeys And the saide hosen kutte at ye knees and lyned wtin wt Lynnen cloth byesse as the hose is A payre of shoen of red Lether thynne laced & fretted underneth wt whippecorde & persed, And above withinne Lyned wt Lynnen cloth three fyngers in brede double & byesse from the too an yncle above ye wriste. And so behinde at ye hele from the Soole halfe a quarter of a yearde uppe this is to fasten wele to his Sabatons And the same Sabatons fastened under ye soole of ye fote in 2 places hym nedeth also a petycote of an overbody of a doublett, his petycote wt oute sleves, ye syses of him 3 quarters aboute wt outen coler, And that other part noo ferther thanne [377] ye waste wt streyte sleves and coler and cutaine oylettes in ye sleves for ye vaunt bras and ye Rerebrase

Armed in this wise First behoveth Sabatouns grevis & cloos quysseux wt voydours of plate or of mayle & a cloos breche of mayle wt 5 bokles of stele ye tisseux of fyne lether. And all ye armyng poyntes after they ben knytte & fastened on hym armed that ye poyntes of him be kutte of

And thanne a paire of cloos gussetts strong sclave not drawes and thatye gussets be thre fingers withinne his plates at both assises And thanne a paire of plattes at xx li lib weight his breste & his plats enarmed to wt wyre or wt poyntes.

A pair of Rerebraces shitten withinne the plates before wt twi forlockes and behinde wt thre forlocks. A paire of vaunt bras cloos wt voydours of mayle & fretted. A pair of gloves of avantage wche may be devised. A basnet of avauntage for ye listes whiche is not goode for noon other battailles but man for man save that necessitie hath noo lawe, the basnet locked baver & vysour locked or charnelled also to ye brest & behynde wt two forlockes. And this Gentilman appellent aforesaide whanne he is thus armed & redy to come to ye felde do on hym a cote of armes of sengle tarten ye beter for avauntage in fighting. And his leg harneys covered alle wt reed taritryn the wche ben called tunictes for he coverynge of his leg harneys is doen because his adversarie shal not lightly espye his blode. And therefore also hen his hosen reed for in alle other colours blode wol lightly be seyne, for by the oolde tyme in such a bataile there shulde noo thing have be seyn here save his basnett & his gloves. And thanne tye on hym a payre of besagewes. Also it fitteth the [378] foresaide counsaille to goo to ye kyng the daye before ye bataille & aske his logging nigh ye listes. Also ye foresaide Counsaille must ordeyne hym the masses ye first masse of ye Trinitie ye seconde of ye Holy Goste & ye thirde of owre Ladye or elles of what other sainte or saintes that he hath devocion unto

It can also be found here. http://books.google.com/books?id=HqRsCy ... 56&f=false in Ffaulkes' Armourer and His Craft, as Appendix C

I hope that folks will discuss likely ways to interpret the arming. Some of the passages are pretty straightforward, and others are difficult to understand.

Mac

[Sean M]

You could try to put out a call in the deeds-of-arms world to see if some of them come back.

Thom Richardson gave us one more source on Johann Hill: Thom Richardson, “Armour in Henry V's Great Wardrobe,” Arms & Armour (2015) pp. 22-29

I wonder who Henry VI's guardian chose to replace him?

A document from Nottingham from 1395 accuses makers of hose of using inadequate cloth, and some of them temper old cloth with new cloth in the wamppeys, to the deception of the people. They think it comes from avantpié "fore-foot" so I guess it means the toe part of the hose.

The brigandine-makers of Angers also classified cuirasses by weight .

It would be good for someone in the UK to visit the Ashmolean and see if any of the hard words look different today than in 1840 or 1900. I don't know if they let people buy a scan ...

[Mac]

Any new thoughts about this now?

I re-read the thread last night, but I don't thing I have any new ideas yet.

Mac

[Mac]

A document from Nottingham from 1395 accuses makers of hose of using inadequate cloth, and some of them temper old cloth with new cloth in the wamppeys, to the deception of the people. They think it comes from avantpié "fore-foot" so I guess it means the toe part of the hose..

That certainly sounds good. I just did a search for vamp etymology, and Oxford dictionary online thinks this is the derivation as well.

The brigandine-makers of Angers also classified cuirasses by weight .

Interesting to see that.

It would be good for someone in the UK to visit the Ashmolean and see if any of the hard words look different today than in 1840 or 1900. I don't know if they let people buy a scan ...

This! We are hanging on every letter of an old transcription. Some fresh eyes on the original might help.

Mac

[Mac]

It would be good for someone in the UK to visit the Ashmolean and see if any of the hard words look different today than in 1840 or 1900. I don't know if they let people buy a scan ...

Marianne just checked online. They have not digitized "Bod. Lib., Ashmole. MS. 856". They have scanned numbers on either side, but not that one.

Mac

[Mac]

First hym nedeth to have a paire of hosen of corde wtoute vampeys

We had earlier established that this probably meant hosen without feet, or stirrup hosen. I thought I might add to this by presenting a few examples of stirrup hosen in art. It seems like they were more common than we can ever know, since any time we see a man who's shoes cover his ankles, he might well be wearing hosen "wtoute vampeys".





Mac

[Sean M]

In my monthly newsletter, I just shared my transcription of the other edition of this text with the differences between the two marked. If you see any other differences which affect meaning, please let me know!

[Mac]

What do we make of this...

" a payre of shoen of reed lether thynne laced and fretted underneth with whippe-corde, and persed; and above withinne, lyned with lynnen cloth, three fyngers in brede, double, and byesse, from the too, an ynche above the wriste; and so behynde at the hele from the soole, halfe a quarter of a yerde uppe, this is to fasten wele to his sabatouns. "


" a payre of shoen of reed lether" He wears a pair of red leather shoes. Red is pretty normal for armed men. https://www.pinterest.com/tbiliter/armi ... -from-art/

"thynne laced" They are closed by laces (presumably up the side). The laces are thin (perhaps so as to reduce bulk)

"and fretted underneth with whippe-corde" The shoes are knotted underneath with whip cord. This is generally accepted as a sort of "tread" to keep the soles from being slippery.

"and persed" I don't have a good idea about this.

"and above withinne, lyned with lynnen cloth" Lining the shoes with linen cloth makes sense, especially since his hosen have no vamps (they are stirrup hosen). I don't know what to make of the word "above" in this context, though.

" three fyngers in brede, double, and byesse" Something (the linen cloth?) is three fingers wide. It is doubled. It is made on the bias. This no longer sounds like a lining, but rather like a length of bias tape.

" from the too, an ynche above the wriste; and so behynde at the hele from the soole" If we presume that too is "toe" and the "wrist" is the ankle, it sounds like he is expected to wrap the above mentioned bias tape around his around his foot in the way an athlete might use an "Ace bandage" or sports tape. If this is supposed to happen before the shoe is in place, perhaps this is the lining mentioned earlier.

"halfe a quarter of a yerde uppe," At first this seems like a length for the bias tape, but neither a half nor a quarter yard seems like enough.... let alone a half of a quarter. If it is a distance up the leg, it is already greater than the 'inch above the ankle' mentioned earlier.

"this is to fasten wele to his sabatouns" It's difficult to see how this wrap of bias tape will help him fasten his sabatons, so perhaps my interpretation is wrong.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Mac

[Ernst]

I'm pretty certain "persed" is pursed, like pursed lips, i.e. drawn tight, puckered.

[Mac]

I'm pretty certain "persed" is pursed, like pursed lips, i.e. drawn tight, puckered.

That's my assumption as well, but I don't have an idea for how it applies here.

Mac

[Sean M]

Persed is a perfectly cromulent medieval spelling of pierced https://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/middle-eng ... /MED32913/ I think pursed to persed is more of a stretch linguistically speaking but Middle English is not my specialty https://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/middle-eng ... /MED35300/ Didn't Middle English have a long "u" like the vowel in "boot"? Like modern German?

Lydgate likes to talk about fretted mail too https://www.bookandsword.com/armour-in- ... troy-book/

[Mac]

Persed is a perfectly cromulent medieval spelling of pierced https://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/middle-eng ... /MED32913/ I think pursed to persed is more of a stretch linguistically speaking but Middle English is not my specialty https://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/middle-eng ... /MED35300/ Didn't Middle English have a long "u" like the vowel in "boot"? Like modern German?

Lydgate likes to talk about fretted mail too https://www.bookandsword.com/armour-in- ... troy-book/

Ok. Perhaps it should be read as "pierced". Do you suppose it's the shoes themselves which are pierced? I like that a bit better than pursed, but I still don't have a clear idea what's happening. Does this piercing have something to do with that bias tape. Might it be related to the rather confusing "and above within" thing.

Mac

[Sean M]

I don't have many books on medieval shoes with me, but I think that fur and fabric linings of shoes are one of the great unknowns. Linen and oil-cured hide rot in the wet. Ask gaukler's friend dru the shoemaker?

The London Shoes and Pattens book pp. 48-49 says:

"A fine, shallow edge/flesh binding-stitch is present on many shoes from the early/mid 12th century onwards along the top edge of the upper. In some cases this may simply have been to reinforce the edge, whereas in others it served to secure a narrow strip of leather or 'topband'. ... A third option, suggested by Richardson, is that such stitching may have been intended to anchor a woven lining in place. Wardrobe accounts throughout the medieval period refer to shoes that were lined, but few such linings survive in archaeological deposits and none from London."

They say that many shoes in early 15th century London have one piece of leather for the quarters (back of the heel) and another for the vamp (front of the foot). That might explain why Johan Hill envisions one linen for the front of the foot and another for the back.

Johan Hill wants what the Museum of London would call 'low boots' which go higher than the ankle.

[Sean M]

and above withinne, lyned with lynnen cloth, three fyngers in brede, double, and byesse, from the too, an ynche above the wriste; and so behynde at the hele from the soole, halfe a quarter of a yerde uppe, this is to fasten wele to his sabatouns. And the same sabatouns fastened under the soole of the fote in 2 places.

One more idea. What if we imagine a strip of linen cloth three fingers broad which runs from the toe to an inch above the ankle, and another at the heel 1/8 yard (11 cm) up? That would reinforce the top of the shoe where it will take points for the sabatons, and maybe at the front where the "ankle voider" is attached and at the 'back where the "heel voider" is attached. The linen in front would just be "above" the foot. It would also avoid any seams in the lining where they could gall the wearer's feet. It would not be a full lining of the uppers, just a reinforcement to make them stiffer where the iron will be pulling on them.

In this sketch, thicker/heavier lines are the leather and thinner lines are the double linen.



Edit: there is also the article on arming shoes by Marquita Volken https://doi.org/10.1515/apd-2017-0007 Personally, I thought she fell into the trap of seeing that something in another culture was different than in our culture, and making up reasons why the forces of unreason and superstition prevented them from doing everything the way we do it. That way leads to "well, they could have ... so they must have ..." And she does not talk about this text.

[Sean M]

I now have a photo of page 376. Based on that photo, I can say that Black was much closer to the sense of the text; that Black expanded the abbreviations like wt for "with" and ye or þe for "the"; that the original has no paragraphs and little punctuation and capitalization. The hose are definitely "of reede" (ie. of red woolen or worsted cloth) not "of corde."

The manuscript is too fragile for them to scan all eight pages. I hope to be able to examine it in 2022 or 2023 depending on the development of the COVID-19 pandemic.

[Sean M]

"A pair of rerebrace, shitte withinne the plates, before with two forelockes, and behinde with thre forlockes"

The letters and papers of Henry VIII of England from the first half of August 1531 mention "forelockes" among other blacksmith's work (British History Online). His locksmith made other types of "locke and latchis." That still does not tell us what a forelock is but at least it shows that other people used the same word for something iron

Payment to John Dossyne, the Kinges smythe, for pynnes of ireon, a anckar, forelockes, barres, armyng nailes, &c. p. 20. Payment to John Lockersmythe, for a payre of gemeus, latchis, hangynglocke, barres, &c. Payment to John Atwell for syngle bryge naile, and spikes. p. 21. Payment to Harry Dyke for boltes, forelockes, and kayes, a payre of gemeus, stone hengis, nailis, spikes, &c.

[Sean M]

This is from one of the Caeser tapestries in Bern.

Here is another late 15th century Low Countries tapestry with points on the side of the hose below the skirt of the jacket. ( Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, Accession Number 09.172 https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/463207)



Has anyone seen points like that anywhere else?

[Chris Flagstad]

This executioner has them



And this guy gambling for Christ's clothes.

[Gustovic]

Holding riding boots makes much more sense than a leg harness. A single point on woolen hosen is begging to be ripped, if it's used to hold armour up.

[Sean M]

I have seen hints that hose in the late 15th century were often lined in the leg as well as around the bum ... but I like the idea that these points were to hold up those loose boots which kept mud and horse-sweat off the hose

Does anyone know what the 16th century painting with the rondel dagger and the helmet of scales is? TinEye thinks it comes from MyArmoury via twcentre forum.

Edit: on MyArmoury, Sean Flynt says:

Kunstwerk: Malerei-Holz ; Einrichtung sakral ; Flügelaltar-Sonntagsseite ; Apt Ulrich der Jüngere (1512-1520 nachweisbar) Dokumentation: 1517 ; 1517 ; Augsburg ; Deutschland ; Schwaben ; Staatsgalerie im Schaezlerpalais ; 5349-5351
Anmerkungen: Rehlingeraltar ; "Altdeutsche Gemälde" der Staatsgalerie Augsburg (Ausst.Kat.), Bd. 1, München 1988, S. 13-17

So the painting by Ulrich the Younger with the scale helmet is probably from imaReal.