The Armour Archive

I have a few things I am working on for a klappviser (1385-1390ish) project I am curios about. I use the word incorrectly best I can tell since I believe the klappviser is the center hinge attachment not the viser style itself. But I did not mean the hounskull pointed kind but the more flat kind like pictured below. I have not found what the correct name is for this type of viser. Also I know these would have been the exception at the time but the Germans always seemed to use things for longer. For example the central mount of visers itself. And the art from the time does show a few.

1. Did original klappvisers use straps to secure them from coming open like people put on them today? I do not see an indication of the attachment points for thse straps on examples from musuems. Is this something done just for modern combat?

2. What forms of decoration where there for these visers. I have seen some with brass trim and some with etching but not sure if the etching is based on historical examples.

Also feel free to share any nice examples you can think of. Always looking for more to have for reference.

Dogface is the most commonly used modern term for the rounded face that goes with the Klapp-arrangement.

1. Not as far as I can tell from miniatures. It would seem these were mostly secured either by spring-pin, by a small hook or by the hinge actually being kinda tight. You'll see a lot of solutions like this on BotN-helmets. Sometimes, there is a "hook" at the bottom of it that you can hook a tab of maile to, keeping it shut.

2. Brass trim with hand-etched latin verses are, far as I know, based off of the churburg bascinets, but that's about it.

I am certain somebody with more knowledge on the matter can answer this.

Thanks Henrik

FWIW, klappvisier simply means "folding visor". Hundsgugel (hound's hood), hounskull, or dog-face all refer to the long pointed nose on the visor, like the nose of a greyhound.

Ernst exactly so what are the flatter visers the ones without a long point called?

For modern convenience I've always heard the term shovel-face visor used to indicate the flatter visors most commonly associated with klappvisier hinged bascinets. Since a klappvisier bascinet can have a houndksull style pointed visor, for clarity's sake you have to be careful when using the term klappvisier when you really mean the helmet with a single centered hinge and a flat, non snouted visor. Klappvisier really only refers to the hinging / mounting mechanism.

sulla123 wrote:Ernst exactly so what are the flatter visers the ones without a long point called?

Visors?

Ernst wrote:FWIW, klappvisier simply means "folding visor". Hundsgugel (hound's hood), hounskull, or dog-face all refer to the long pointed nose on the visor, like the nose of a greyhound.

Historically speaking, the Hundsgugel that is mentioned in in 14th and 15th c. German sources was a maille hood.
I am not sure which 19th c. author got the wrong end of the stick, writing that it was a pointy nosed visor. And I am afraid that it is so engrained by now in the armour community, it will not change anymore.

I can't think of a more inelegant term to describe a piece of armour than to compare it to a shovel.

Rounded breastplates are described as globose, why not describe the rounded visor as that too? Other armour historians use the term.

Kel Rekuta wrote: Rounded breastplates are described as globose, why not describe the rounded visor as that too?

That certainly works too.

Kel Rekuta wrote:I can't think of a more inelegant term to describe a piece of armour than to compare it to a shovel.

Rounded breastplates are described as globose, why not describe the rounded visor as that too? Other armour historians use the term.

Hear him!

Also, note well; that he is using globose as an adjective, rather than a noun.

Mac

To Sulla's question 1, I've floated the notion that historically they may have used a small loop of cord or thong around the hook-tab to the camail to give it convenient lash-down. Don't know of any artistic depiction, or even a what's-that-there in an illumination that might have been one -- this in a time and place when three tiny widely spaced stitches or knots might be seen over the brow of a bascinet, apparently to secure the front of the padding within, and marked with simple little tick-marks.

I agree with Konstantin in terms of practicality but sadly have never found a single shred of evidence to support it. So many of the extant visors have that little finial in steel or latten.

Thanks for all the help guys.

So from what I can tell by searching on the internet even though it would probably be more correct to call the viser a shovel-face visor most people just call it a Klappviser. I wish some one would figure out a catchy name that would stick

And for the attachment to hold down the viser it seems to be up in the air at the moment.

Bertus Brokamp wrote:

Ernst wrote:FWIW, klappvisier simply means "folding visor". Hundsgugel (hound's hood), hounskull, or dog-face all refer to the long pointed nose on the visor, like the nose of a greyhound.

Historically speaking, the Hundsgugel that is mentioned in in 14th and 15th c. German sources was a maille hood.
I am not sure which 19th c. author got the wrong end of the stick, writing that it was a pointy nosed visor. And I am afraid that it is so engrained by now in the armour community, it will not change anymore.

Trying to imagine a mail hood that looks like a dog....

Bertus, I'm sure you've got some passages illustrating this. nudge. nudge.

sulla123 wrote:Thanks for all the help guys.

So from what I can tell by searching on the internet even though it would probably be more correct to call the viser a shovel-face visor most people just call it a Klappviser. I wish some one would figure out a catchy name that would stick

And for the attachment to hold down the viser it seems to be up in the air at the moment.

I used a hidden spring clip on my SCA bascinet, it allowed me to remove the visor in one very fast motion. Beneath was a fixed grill. This allowed me to remove my visor while still being "list legal" and just throw it aside or let it hang from a chain.
A couple folks got a little stressed seeing a visor off during combat until they saw the grill.
Something subtle would be an improvement over a strap.

white mountain armoury wrote:

sulla123 wrote:Thanks for all the help guys.

So from what I can tell by searching on the internet even though it would probably be more correct to call the viser a shovel-face visor most people just call it a Klappviser. I wish some one would figure out a catchy name that would stick

And for the attachment to hold down the viser it seems to be up in the air at the moment.

I used a hidden spring clip on my SCA bascinet, it allowed me to remove the visor in one very fast motion. Beneath was a fixed grill. This allowed me to remove my visor while still being "list legal" and just throw it aside or let it hang from a chain.
A couple folks got a little stressed seeing a visor off during combat until they saw the grill.
Something subtle would be an improvement over a strap.

Would you mind sharing some pictures of that setup?

Keegan Ingrassia wrote: Would you mind sharing some pictures of that setup?

+100

I've considered doing the same and would love to see an example.

Ernst wrote:

Bertus Brokamp wrote:

Ernst wrote:FWIW, klappvisier simply means "folding visor". Hundsgugel (hound's hood), hounskull, or dog-face all refer to the long pointed nose on the visor, like the nose of a greyhound.

Historically speaking, the Hundsgugel that is mentioned in in 14th and 15th c. German sources was a maille hood.
I am not sure which 19th c. author got the wrong end of the stick, writing that it was a pointy nosed visor. And I am afraid that it is so engrained by now in the armour community, it will not change anymore.

Trying to imagine a mail hood that looks like a dog....

Bertus, I'm sure you've got some passages illustrating this. nudge. nudge.

I think I'll whip up a small article about the subject.

Found an image of an interesting decoration down the ridge of a helmet. Looks to be metal and not painted on since it is the same colore as the other brass colored elements. Might be interesting to combine the decoration of the two helmets.

Also here is one with the brass trim added to the viser.