The Armour Archive

I am looking for images of medieval money boards? Any here have one at hand?

Thanks,

RPM

Like counting boards? Which were used with Jetons?

I don't know of any extant boards, though there are some examples in art. I'll dig up some references in the morning.

-Derian.

Derian,

Exactly. If you could that'd be awesome.

RPM

I don't even know what these are so I'm interested to see what he digs up, too.

Basically, they are a form of 'adding machine' for the merchant, which consists solely of a board with columns marked out, and different denominations of money marked out. The jetons being used as counters for how many of this, or that denomination.

would it be right to make several rows with I. v. x, l, c, d, m? I found some that are using letters that I think must be in a language other than those I know as the lower one looks to be a w or something. should I make the I a j? I know in text they do the I as a j but not so sure in wood working.

RPM

Most inventories I've seen seem to use i, v, x, (xx), where the twenty is then marked as (xx)iv, i.e. 80 or 4x20, before moving on to l, c, etc.. Counting in "grosses" of 20 seems to have been speedy, though money usually goes through that whole problem of not being on a decimal system. What was it, 12 pence per shilling, 5 shillings per mark, 20 shillings or 240 pence per pound?

I thought a mark was 2/3 of a pound, and was based purely on actual weight so that raw silver, plate, etc could be used as legal tender?

It's very confusing, which just goes to show why money people in the middle ages were considered nigh-on demonically magic.

Ernst,

So

I
v
x
xx
xx -iv- how is this marked on the board?
shouldn't l be before 80?

So I, v, x, xx, l, xx-iv, c, d, m?

Glen,

That is my understanding as well. 2/3 a pound. In England it is a simple weight but other countries use it as coinage. The mark is an odd set up. As is the gold noble. Why 1 and 1/3 a pound over a pound coin?

RPM

For the English:

1 pound (L) = 20 shillings (s)
1 crown = 5 shillings
1 shilling = 12 pence (d)
1 penny = 4 farthings
1 mark = 13s 4d

RandallMoffett wrote:would it be right to make several rows with I. v. x, l, c, d, m? I found some that are using letters that I think must be in a language other than those I know as the lower one looks to be a w or something. should I make the I a j? I know in text they do the I as a j but not so sure in wood working.

RPM

The final i in a row would often be represented as a j, such as in iij (3) or iiij (4). Is this what you're referring to? I would love to see the board you're referencing, tools of account is an area of interest to me.

Luca,

Yes that was what I was talking about. I guess my question in these is some of the ones I see have letters that do not follow the lettering I usually see. for example 80. What letter would they use? I have only found 2 in art and one is German 16th and I suspect it is with German lettering.

RPM

Luca Sogliano wrote:For the English:

1 pound (L) = 20 shillings (s)
1 crown = 5 shillings
1 shilling = 12 pence (d)
1 penny = 4 farthings
1 mark = 13s 4d

That's so late period... I'm stuck in the 11th-12th centuries, where the only coinage available was pennies. I even have a (reproduction, of course) full pound of 240 pennies to use when I talk about money, exchange, incomes, etc.

Randall,

Here's a manuscript with original folio numbering, BNF Français 25526, from the 2nd quarter of the 14th century.
Folio 47r is marked xlvij (at the top right).
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b6000369q/f99.item
Folio 62r is marked lxij
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b6 ... /f149.item
Folio 86r is not lxxxvj, but rather (xx)iiij.vj, i.e.20x4 and 6, with the xx as superscript.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b6 ... /f177.item Folio 100r is marked C, and I'm not sure why 80 is marked using twenties (xx) instead of lxxx.

A number of inventories, especially for items purchased in large numbers like arrows, also use superscripted (xx) so that l(xx) is 50x20 or 1000 rather than M. Perhaps because they were counting sheafs of 20. Sometimes 400 hundred is written as (c)iiij rather than cccc. I have no idea why they would do this. I think Richardson or Storey's thesis also provides examples of superscripted higher numbers like 100.

It is commonplace in clerical writing - it is unquestionably the norm. The question would be would someone bother to extend an I to a j on a counting board, carving?

Ernst,

No the superscript and iij are very common but in inventories and such accounts. My question is if they would be on the money/counting board in what order and letters. If they use all roman numbers it would be easier but most I see use the first letter of the word, d, s, etc. what does one use for 80 then?

I am having little success in figuring out the starting letter to number usage from artwork...

RPM

If we're seeing this upside down, and the wood carver gets his C reversed...


M - thousands closest to us
C- (backwards?) hundreds
l - fifty
x - tens

But the lowest denomination looks like a B, which seems senseless to me for ones.

Glen K wrote:I thought a mark was 2/3 of a pound, and was based purely on actual weight so that raw silver, plate, etc could be used as legal tender?

It's very confusing, which just goes to show why money people in the middle ages were considered nigh-on demonically magic.

Which pound, which mark, where, and when? These things varied.

-Derian.

"The Casting-counter and the Counting-board", by Francis Pierrepont Barnard, 1916, has plates of five extant counting boards.

Here's a free online edition: http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=m ... =1up;seq=6

-Derian.

Derian,

Thanks! It is funny I hit Jstor and got all sorts of articles up but none had any images and only a few tied into my real interest...

Ernst,

I have that same issue wth many I find. Seems they may be using some other lettering in there. It could be a mix of first letter in their language and roman numerals?

What is penny in various medieval languages?

RPM

Derian le Breton wrote:"The Casting-counter and the Counting-board", by Francis Pierrepont Barnard, 1916, has plates of five extant counting boards.

Here's a free online edition: http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=m ... =1up;seq=6

-Derian.

You couldn't ask for more. I wonder if the one in Nuremburg survived the last war - I have seen many, many jettons (and even own a couple), I have never seen a counting board pother than manuscript illustrations of them.

You're welcome.

-Derian.

Wow.... so I can more or less do whatever I want. I was hoping to see some type of standard but should have known better as a medieval historian to expect that. So my feeling seems to be from what I am seeing is that when they use d, s and lb the following numbers v, c or m are lbs past 1-4 on the board? Why not use x? so 1-9 would be in a row then start with tens to 100.

So I am thinking.

D, S, Lb, X, C, M- I could add L and D I suppose and get to eight spaces? Some seem to only have 3 rows, d, s, lb. Some have far more. I guess I'll safe either way.

Thanks Derian. The article was great!

RPM

Derian le Breton wrote:Which pound, which mark, where, and when? These things varied.

-Derian.

See? Demonic.

Luca Sogliano wrote:For the English:

1 pound (L) = 20 shillings (s)
1 crown = 5 shillings
1 shilling = 12 pence (d)
1 penny = 4 farthings
1 mark = 13s 4d

This is an oversimplification that's only really true for modern pre-decimal British coinage.

-Derian.

Glen K wrote:I'm stuck in the 11th-12th centuries, where the only coinage available was pennies.

There are extant 12th century cut halfpennies and farthings.

-Derian.

Derian le Breton wrote:

Luca Sogliano wrote:For the English:

1 pound (L) = 20 shillings (s)
1 crown = 5 shillings
1 shilling = 12 pence (d)
1 penny = 4 farthings
1 mark = 13s 4d

This is an oversimplification that's only really true for modern pre-decimal British coinage.

-Derian.

You are, of course, absolutely correct. I should have stated this more clearly. You don't, by chance, have a more complete cheat sheet, do you?

Luca Sogliano wrote:You are, of course, absolutely correct. I should have stated this more clearly. You don't, by chance, have a more complete cheat sheet, do you?

No. It varied by reign and issue. English coinage was relatively stable, but it still varied in weight.

-Derian.

If you are interested in a particular time I can probably dig up the relevant data, though it is often not all that meaningful.

-Derian.

Derian,

Is this setup- 'D, S, Lb, X, C, M- I could add L and D I suppose and get to eight spaces?' ok for 1350?

Thanks,

RPM

RandallMoffett wrote:Is this setup- 'D, S, Lb, X, C, M- I could add L and D I suppose and get to eight spaces?' ok for 1350?

Sorry, I meant with regards to the weight of English coinage.

My knowledge of counting boards is much shallower! I'd check the book I linked to above as a starting point.

-Derian.

Derian,

OK. I took a look over the book and think I am ok but when you said that I thought you were directing that at me so I wanted to make sure what I was doing wrong.

RPM

Derian le Breton wrote: No. It varied by reign and issue.

Exactly. Debasement has been going on since the dawn of time. A couple months ago I read an article about a contract someone found where a 3rd c Greek wrestler was paid to take a fall, and the contract was explicit that he be paid in old Drachmas. There was a Roman debasement going on at the time which Greece was most likely pressured to keep up with (the more things change, the more they stay the same...) and the people were likely well aware of it.

If you want to recreate any money throughout history, make your own currency based on metal mass, circulate it, then start to add base metals to it, remove the others from circulation, and if anyone cries foul just point to the counting board and deny anything has changed.