All Burgundian Info available needed!

Harold the Bear · Post by **Harold the Bear** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 9:47 am

Yeah i dont anything about the burgundians... maybe charles the bold and they died out 1477, but thats all i know.

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"As you hear the teuton war cry roll through the hills,you will then see the bear"
Heil Rittertum,

Harold the Bear

white mountain armoury · Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:31 am

http://www.wolfeargent.com/
thats a good palce to start, Chef de Chambre will see this im sure and be able to point you to places

Glen K · Post by **Glen K** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 1:46 pm

The osprey book on Burgundian armies is done by reliable author/illustrator, and is the best place to start for military information.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 10:15 am

OK Harold,

I'll bite, but you have to be more specific. I cannot type you out three or four books, and if you want to know "everything", then I'll mail you a reading list. If you have specific questions I can help you.

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Bob R.

Gaston · Post by **Gaston** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 6:14 pm

Take chef up on it lad, he's steer you right.

And he's a more generous man than I to offer such specific help for such a general question.

Harold the Bear · Post by **Harold the Bear** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 11:06 pm

Cool Chef one of my questions is about the Burgundian Army. Like its compisiton(sp?) and actions it took place in in the 14th-15th century. Maybe who they were at war with would help. I'm trying to expand my knowledge :^)

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"As you hear the teuton war cry roll through the hills,you will then see the bear"
Heil Rittertum,

Harold the Bear
Herzog von Sachsen

[This message has been edited by Harold the Bear (edited 03-23-2001).]

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Sat Mar 24, 2001 11:07 pm

Harold,

You have to narrow it down even more I'm afraid. Burgundy as a "state" or a seperate political entity didn't exist until the late 14th c. The size of Burgundy radically grew over the course of it's existance, and the composition of the "army" changed over the course of each of the four Valois Dukes reigns.

Suffice it to say that Burgundian armies were composed of elements much like any other Medieval armies, consisting of the feudal elements of the great lords, the Ducal household & bodyguard, garrison troops, and over time substantial numbers of civic militias. At any given time on average a third of any Ducal army consisted of hired mercenaries or allies.

Standing armies didn't exist until the middle of the 15th c. as states did not have the finances at their disposal to maintain them. Charles the Bold raised the 12 companies of the ordinances of 1200 lances of 9 combatants in July of 1471 (100 lances per company). It wasn't the first standing army since the fall of Rome in the West (that honour belongs to Charles VII of France in the 1440's), but it was the first standing army composed of all arms. Until the war against the confederation, ti was an army with a very good performance record, rated the finest army in Europe. Had Charles the Bold been a less impetuous commander, and more importantly - less unlucky, the Swiss confederates could have been dealt with. Grandson was a near run battle, and Murten (Morat) could well have been a slaughter for the Swiss had not the Burgundian army been out of it's prepared lines being paid. Nancy should never have been fought, and Charles lost his life for his poor judgment in doing so (although his captains advised him against going out to fight Rene of Lorraine's army as he was outnumbered 10 to 1, Charles refused to retreat and told them he would go out to face them even if he had to do so alone).

You picked a subject to fill a large book - it's better than the hundred or so volumes worth that your first question would require.

What exactly would you like to know? Just narrow the topic down a bit please.

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Bob R.

Asbjorn Johansen · Post by **Asbjorn Johansen** » Mon Mar 26, 2001 12:00 pm

Chef,

Care to recomend a good survey work or two, for those would like to know something about the Burgundians, but not everything

.

Asbjorn

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Mon Mar 26, 2001 9:00 pm

Hi Ashbjorn & all,

The most readily available information on the Burgundian army in particular is the brief overview given by the Osprey book. One of the best general surveys of Valois Burgundy available in English is "The Golden Age of Burgundy" by Calemette. The most comprehensive study of the Valois "state" of BUrgundy is Richard Vaughns five monumental works "Philip the Bold", "John the Fearless", "Philip the Good", "Charles the Bold" and "Valois Burgundy. All published by Longmans (UK) between 1967 (?) and 1975. Also a good study of the Valois government and its interaction with the Flemish towns is "The Promised Lands", by Wims & Prevenier. There are some more specific studies available, but this should be near a years worth of reading on the subject.

In French, and dealing with the army specifically id "L'armee de la Duc de Bourgogine 1465-68" which is in French and I am in the middle of translating with my wife (maybe to be published if I can get any takers - I haven't looked into it yet), and Gardiners "L'Artilleri de la Ducs du Burgogne" (1889 Brussels) also in French, and bloody hard to get ahold of. This is an often quoted source and includes such details as numbers of tents purchased. It is but a fraction of the original documents still extant pertaining to the Burgundian army.

Also availabe as a rare book is "Die Burgunderbeute", Florens Deuchler, Stampfli press, Berne 1963, which is a catalog of extant objects captured from the Burgundian army during the Swiss wars. Scores of stndards, flags & pennons, artillery pieces, tapestries, cut up tent material making ecllesiastical dress, silver & gold plate, diamonds, etc....

Hope this helps.

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Bob R.

Glen K · Post by **Glen K** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 11:19 am

Bob,
Do you have a copy of Die Burgunderbeute? Do you want one? I know where a couple are to be had...

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 9:26 pm

Hey Glen,

I have a copy, and a copy of the 1967-68 exhibition catalog. The works I quoted I have or have access to. How much are the copies running?

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Bob R.

Harold the Bear · Post by **Harold the Bear** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 10:42 pm

I have read at www.landsknecht.com in their history section that Maximillian the I had a "burgundian Claim to the lowlands" now what that hell is that all about?

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"As you hear the teuton war cry roll through the hills,you will then see the bear"
Heil Rittertum,

Harold the Bear
Herzog von Sachsen

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 11:00 pm

He married Charles the Bolds heir and only child - Mary of Burgundy in 1478. Therein lies his claim.

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Bob R.

Glen K · Post by **Glen K** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 11:31 pm

The ones I've seen around $65 for Die Burgunderbeute... If I wasn't on another book-buying tack (read: thesis) I'd get myself one.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 5:05 am

Thats an excellent price Glen ! We spent $110 for ours. Let me see if anyone in the company is interested.

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Bob R.

Harold the Bear · Post by **Harold the Bear** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 8:20 am

Thanks for explaining Chef. Also could you explain the final days of Burgundy? Like was it a peaceful fading or was it a violent end?

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"As you hear the teuton war cry roll through the hills,you will then see the bear"
Heil Rittertum,

Harold the Bear
Herzog von Sachsen

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 10:31 pm

Harold,

It didn't really cease to Exist -although it doesn't exist in the same form. Ever hear of Belgium? Holland? Luxembourg? Charles died in the snow at Nancy, survivors of the companies either dispersed or stuck by his heir and fought the encroachment of Louis XI (The conducteur of the company my group depicts a subdivision of - the lord of Chanteraine, held St. Omer against Louis XI's army in a spirited defense). Louis eventually ended up with the Dutchy and County of Burgundy, the Somme towns, and some additional territory, but Mary married Maximilian, and he raised an army to defend the rest (including Burgundian soldiers - this should interest you, as this is the first time Landesknechts were raised - the year 1478). For near twenty years he squabbled with the French, and eventually regained the county of Burgundy, although the Dutchy that gave the name to the "state" was lost to France forever.

The rest, the Low Countries retained enough of a sense of self identity to eventually rise up against the Hapsburg/Spanish monarchy, and the end result you know, which is why Belgium, Holland, and Luxemburg aren't a part of Germany but seperate countries, to give you the incredibly compressed Clif note version of History. More battles were fought over that smallish chunk of turf than you can imagine, which is why it gained the nickname "The Cock-pit of Europe".

One of the great what ifs or might have beens of history is what could have happened if Valois Burgundy had continued as a unified entity under a Valois duke. Charles the Bold had made great strides towards centeralizing the government, and had established a seperate but shrot-lived parliament at Mecklin. The Valois dukes holding the reigns for a hundred years had given the region a sense of cultural unity. Burgundy was the first independant principality within and boardering France to fall, and the rest eventually crumbled in the face of a centeralized monarchy as they weren't as strong as Burgundy. France could have been a second string power, and Burgundy could have been a major player in Europe. Didn't happen though - castles in Spain as John of Gaunt would say.

Hope this helps a little - as usual, you asked for a complicated subject to be summed up in a short post.

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Bob R.