Anyone know anything about this? I was talking with my dad yesterday and he was saying that this was a battle between the Romans and the Jews that took place on a tall hill. The only path up was a long and winding one and was fairly well guarded. The Romans, in their quest for dominance and in hopes of making an example of these people living in this small town, tried to build a ramp made dirt to get up to the down. I'm just touching on some details here to see if anyone's memory is jogged.
When the people in the town knew that they would be taken by the Romans, they decided that they would deprive the Romans of this victory. So, the soldiers all went home and killed their wives and children and then one soldier killed all the others and finally killed himself, denying the Romans the right to parade these people around as captors.
Does any of this story have any merit? Any online resources available? I may have gotten the facts wrong though...
Battle of Messina?
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white mountain armoury
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bran vo lough derg
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CLAY
Massada
try here
http://www.smu.edu~dbinder/massada.html
[This message has been edited by bran vo lough derg (edited 03-26-2001).]
Massada
try here
http://www.smu.edu~dbinder/massada.html
[This message has been edited by bran vo lough derg (edited 03-26-2001).]
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Clay
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Sweet! Thanks for the information. I had a hard time finding into on "messina" and now I know why 
Here is the correct URL Bran. It somehow got messed up:
http://www.smu.edu/~dbinder/masada.html
Here is the correct URL Bran. It somehow got messed up:
http://www.smu.edu/~dbinder/masada.html
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Norman
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Up yours Roman !!
Incidentally I have a drawing of a defender of Massada here:
http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors/ancient.html
...and when reading Josephus - analyse his statements keeping in mind that he was a traitor and writing for the Romans.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
Incidentally I have a drawing of a defender of Massada here:
http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors/ancient.html
...and when reading Josephus - analyse his statements keeping in mind that he was a traitor and writing for the Romans.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
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Norman
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He was a commander of a military unit.
At the end of the battle, his unit were all slaughtered while he became a celebrated historian for the enemy.
I would guess if a Roman commander did a similar thing and got caught, he would be gruesomly executed.
Incidentally, Clay,
I don't know why you're researching Massada.
But, if you want similar stories, there are a number from the time of the Crusades.
Many knights decided it would be easier to kill Jews locally than shlepping all the way to Israel to kill foreign infidels.
It became commonplace around the 12th century for a European Jewish community, after withstanding a long siege by Crusaders, to rob the Crusaders of their slaves, rape victims, and booty by self sacrifice.
The most famous such sieges are Moyence (I believe I spelled that correctly) - where we see a good Christian (the Bishop of the city) give his own castle to the Jews.
...and York - where the victims then haunted the city until the decendants of the murderers begged forgiveness and were officially forgiven by the Jewish community in the 1970ies.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
[This message has been edited by Norman (edited 03-27-2001).]
At the end of the battle, his unit were all slaughtered while he became a celebrated historian for the enemy.
I would guess if a Roman commander did a similar thing and got caught, he would be gruesomly executed.
Incidentally, Clay,
I don't know why you're researching Massada.
But, if you want similar stories, there are a number from the time of the Crusades.
Many knights decided it would be easier to kill Jews locally than shlepping all the way to Israel to kill foreign infidels.
It became commonplace around the 12th century for a European Jewish community, after withstanding a long siege by Crusaders, to rob the Crusaders of their slaves, rape victims, and booty by self sacrifice.
The most famous such sieges are Moyence (I believe I spelled that correctly) - where we see a good Christian (the Bishop of the city) give his own castle to the Jews.
...and York - where the victims then haunted the city until the decendants of the murderers begged forgiveness and were officially forgiven by the Jewish community in the 1970ies.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
[This message has been edited by Norman (edited 03-27-2001).]
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Norman
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York?
(when I get the chance, I'd been planning on writing this up for my Site - checking all the names and facts - and doig a proper storytelling job on it)
In brief -
The Jews in England had the status of an internal separate nation under direct protection of the King (King's ward) (this is actually very much the basis for American Indian law).
Henry II (I think that's the right one - the one just before Richard) took his responsibility seriously.
However, the opportunists took the death of Henry and coronation of Richard as a sign that the Jews were now unproptected. They were right.
In England Jews often held the professions of Jeweler or banker. The Church forbade loans - but the nobles often had more needs than money - so the profession was left to the Jews.
Led by Robert (or was it Richard?) Malbete (if you know french, you may note that his name is quite fitting), the various scoundrels of York (folks who didn't want to pay back their loans, folks who just wanted to tap into the wealth the Jews had... or just the simple folks who fell for the "Jews killed Christ" nonsence) began attacks on the Jewish community.
It started with several beatings and escalated from there.
As the mob made its way for the final asault, the Jews collected what they could and made their way to the King's (or sheriff's) Tower of York, barged in and barricaded themselves inside to wait for help from the king.
The siege lasted for a number of days -- RIchard "te Lion Hearted" not particularly interested in sending help.
The attackers told the Jews that if they came out, gave up all their possessions, and converted, they would be spared. I believe there was empirical evidence that this would not happen (stragglers and such).
When the Jews no longer had provision or hope of rescue, they killed themselves -- the last one setting fire to everything they had.
...the tower was wood - it theoretically could have survived - but when the besiegers saw that all the stuff was gone, they didn't bother putting out the tower.
A new stone tower was built 50 years later.
A hundred years to the day from the time of the destruction -- a red stain appeared on the Tower -- as if the walls were all bleeding.
This happened every hundred years on the anniversary of the destruction.
Scientific explanations are insufficient both because of the clockwork schedule of the occurence and because buildings directly nearby, built with the same stone (exactly the same - quaried in the same place and time), did not show this marking.
The people of York considered this a sign from the dead Jews.
In this century, they finally asked for forgiveness, and were officially forgiven by the Jewish community currently settled near there in 1974.
A plaque at the foot of the tower now commemorates the destruction.
The bleeding scheduled for this century (I think it was 1990 or so) did not happen.
In the right light, you can still see the slightly pinkish hue of the stone from the eight hundred years of blood (quite different from the color of the other related buildings).
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
(when I get the chance, I'd been planning on writing this up for my Site - checking all the names and facts - and doig a proper storytelling job on it)
In brief -
The Jews in England had the status of an internal separate nation under direct protection of the King (King's ward) (this is actually very much the basis for American Indian law).
Henry II (I think that's the right one - the one just before Richard) took his responsibility seriously.
However, the opportunists took the death of Henry and coronation of Richard as a sign that the Jews were now unproptected. They were right.
In England Jews often held the professions of Jeweler or banker. The Church forbade loans - but the nobles often had more needs than money - so the profession was left to the Jews.
Led by Robert (or was it Richard?) Malbete (if you know french, you may note that his name is quite fitting), the various scoundrels of York (folks who didn't want to pay back their loans, folks who just wanted to tap into the wealth the Jews had... or just the simple folks who fell for the "Jews killed Christ" nonsence) began attacks on the Jewish community.
It started with several beatings and escalated from there.
As the mob made its way for the final asault, the Jews collected what they could and made their way to the King's (or sheriff's) Tower of York, barged in and barricaded themselves inside to wait for help from the king.
The siege lasted for a number of days -- RIchard "te Lion Hearted" not particularly interested in sending help.
The attackers told the Jews that if they came out, gave up all their possessions, and converted, they would be spared. I believe there was empirical evidence that this would not happen (stragglers and such).
When the Jews no longer had provision or hope of rescue, they killed themselves -- the last one setting fire to everything they had.
...the tower was wood - it theoretically could have survived - but when the besiegers saw that all the stuff was gone, they didn't bother putting out the tower.
A new stone tower was built 50 years later.
A hundred years to the day from the time of the destruction -- a red stain appeared on the Tower -- as if the walls were all bleeding.
This happened every hundred years on the anniversary of the destruction.
Scientific explanations are insufficient both because of the clockwork schedule of the occurence and because buildings directly nearby, built with the same stone (exactly the same - quaried in the same place and time), did not show this marking.
The people of York considered this a sign from the dead Jews.
In this century, they finally asked for forgiveness, and were officially forgiven by the Jewish community currently settled near there in 1974.
A plaque at the foot of the tower now commemorates the destruction.
The bleeding scheduled for this century (I think it was 1990 or so) did not happen.
In the right light, you can still see the slightly pinkish hue of the stone from the eight hundred years of blood (quite different from the color of the other related buildings).
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
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Bob Charron
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Well,
When Jews were killed in riots in York and Lincoln during Richard's coronation, he had the ring leaders of those actions hung. Considering the enforceability of law, and the fact that he couldn't find all the perpetrators or burn an entire rich town, I'd say the Jews had the protection of the Crown.
The Masada account by Flavius Josephus, as has been mentioned before, is under question by current scholars who postulate that the Romans could have actually slaughtered the Jewish Zealots at Masada, and covered it with a story of suicide.
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Conn MacNiell
When Jews were killed in riots in York and Lincoln during Richard's coronation, he had the ring leaders of those actions hung. Considering the enforceability of law, and the fact that he couldn't find all the perpetrators or burn an entire rich town, I'd say the Jews had the protection of the Crown.
The Masada account by Flavius Josephus, as has been mentioned before, is under question by current scholars who postulate that the Romans could have actually slaughtered the Jewish Zealots at Masada, and covered it with a story of suicide.
------------------
Conn MacNiell
Neat story, Norman. It certainly was conveinient that the Jews weren't allowed to buy land, and therefore that all their wealth was in liquid assets (gold, jewelry). That way the King could milk them nearly dry until the next time he wanted more "free" money.
I know he was a noted historian (even though I've read that his personal life wasn't nearly so noteworthy), but is Aurthur Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe" considered pretty accurate. I enjoyed it when I read it a number of years ago.
I know he was a noted historian (even though I've read that his personal life wasn't nearly so noteworthy), but is Aurthur Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe" considered pretty accurate. I enjoyed it when I read it a number of years ago.
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James Schardt
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I have to agree with Owen on this one. Captives paraded through the streets would have done a much better job of cowing the rebelious population of Judea than a tale of corpses in an abandoned fortress. Actually the fact that this small group of rebels had tied up an entire legion for so long with the siege and they had nothing to show for it probably hurt the Romans in the area a little bit.
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It's all fun and games until somebody burns a village.
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It's all fun and games until somebody burns a village.
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Bob Charron
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Gentlemen,
I don't have the sources that made this speculation, but we must remember that the account was written by Flavius Josephus, a Jew that went over to the Romans. His portrayal would be one that served him, and Roman/Jewish diplomacy. To tell of the slaughter of Jews as a Jew who was part of the Roman government would not be wise in any imagineable way.
Then again, it's all speculation. Let's not get too tied up in it
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Conn MacNiell
I don't have the sources that made this speculation, but we must remember that the account was written by Flavius Josephus, a Jew that went over to the Romans. His portrayal would be one that served him, and Roman/Jewish diplomacy. To tell of the slaughter of Jews as a Jew who was part of the Roman government would not be wise in any imagineable way.
Then again, it's all speculation. Let's not get too tied up in it
------------------
Conn MacNiell
But that was my point, Bob, the suicide version makes the Romans look bad, and gives the rebellion martyrs, whereas a slaughter would have been SOP, so why would Josephus write it that way? It doesn't help Roman/Jewish diplomacy. I'd love to see this source.
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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"
------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"
Hi all;
I was watching something about this on TV the other day and a scientist had a new spin on things. He said that on some of the corpses there were defensive wounds. like the defenders and the people they were defending fought among themselves. He was sujesting that the soldiers slaugtered there own people reather that let them surender. He is catching alot of flak from the government of Isreal about this because they have turned Masada into a point of national pride. Kinda like our Alamo or something!!!!
Chirs
I was watching something about this on TV the other day and a scientist had a new spin on things. He said that on some of the corpses there were defensive wounds. like the defenders and the people they were defending fought among themselves. He was sujesting that the soldiers slaugtered there own people reather that let them surender. He is catching alot of flak from the government of Isreal about this because they have turned Masada into a point of national pride. Kinda like our Alamo or something!!!!
Chirs
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JohnLivingston
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Alcyoneus,
I think you are talking about the WWII battle at the Abby on Montsina (sp). The allies bombed it heavily but were unable to route out the German defenders and it took them months and many losses to clean it up.
p.s. It may be the same place as the Roman battle. I just don't know.
John Livingston
I think you are talking about the WWII battle at the Abby on Montsina (sp). The allies bombed it heavily but were unable to route out the German defenders and it took them months and many losses to clean it up.
p.s. It may be the same place as the Roman battle. I just don't know.
John Livingston
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Norman
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Bob --
It was my understanding that the timing of Richard's punishment of the ringleaders and the people chosen as "ringleaders" for punishment purposes was clearly indicative of his NOT doing his job.
(kinda like the old movie image of the sherrif conveniently being out when the troublemakers are lynched ...and then moseing and arresting some patsies)
...that, and setting up the atmosphere (kinda like the "Giuliani time" story)
As for covering up the slaughter at Massada -- as the others have said - it was preferable to the Romans to take prisoners and triumphal stuff.
One of the big propaganda questions was the identification of the defenders as Sicari (a more fanatical group of revolutionaries) and criminals. Maybe you were thinking of that.
Chris --
I wonder who this guy on TV is -- since the bodies were examined after the original dig and then buried with honors.
Makes me question any sort of new radical "discovery" regarding the bodies -- he'd have to be using the records from the dig - which would mean that any info he got would have been there all along.
...plus, there were a substantial number of pottery "lots" found -- substantiating the drawing of lots for who was to go at which point.
(and remembering Josephus' anti-rebelion/ pro-Roman slant -- you figure the defenders killing themselves because of internal squable would have played better for his audience)
Fact is, the Mass Suicide thing happened in a number of Jewish fortresses during the rebellion (and, as I mentioned - at the time of the Crusades as well) -- Massada just happens to be the most famous.
There is therefore little reason to question it as a concept.
Alcyoneus
No "Thirteenth Tribe" is not a good source. It is full of rather wild speculation and opinions made into fact (though it can be a nice basic intro to the subject).
It is currently the favorite of Anti-Jewish Revisionists.
(incidentally - I don't believe he was a noted historian - revisionists just really like using the phrase "noted Jewish historian" - not certain that he was any kind of historian - rather a sensationalist journalist ...but I passed on getting his bibliography - so not sure)
For a basic overview of the problems with revisionism and this particular topic - read the pertinent articles on my "Jewish Warriors" site.
Owen
If the "non-combatants" cooperated - Why would defensive wounds be expected?
Incidentally, the practice was commonly (and I believe in Massada) to have people trained in ritual slaughter do the killing (whether they were soldiers or not).
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
[This message has been edited by Norman (edited 03-28-2001).]
It was my understanding that the timing of Richard's punishment of the ringleaders and the people chosen as "ringleaders" for punishment purposes was clearly indicative of his NOT doing his job.
(kinda like the old movie image of the sherrif conveniently being out when the troublemakers are lynched ...and then moseing and arresting some patsies)
...that, and setting up the atmosphere (kinda like the "Giuliani time" story)
As for covering up the slaughter at Massada -- as the others have said - it was preferable to the Romans to take prisoners and triumphal stuff.
One of the big propaganda questions was the identification of the defenders as Sicari (a more fanatical group of revolutionaries) and criminals. Maybe you were thinking of that.
Chris --
I wonder who this guy on TV is -- since the bodies were examined after the original dig and then buried with honors.
Makes me question any sort of new radical "discovery" regarding the bodies -- he'd have to be using the records from the dig - which would mean that any info he got would have been there all along.
...plus, there were a substantial number of pottery "lots" found -- substantiating the drawing of lots for who was to go at which point.
(and remembering Josephus' anti-rebelion/ pro-Roman slant -- you figure the defenders killing themselves because of internal squable would have played better for his audience)
Fact is, the Mass Suicide thing happened in a number of Jewish fortresses during the rebellion (and, as I mentioned - at the time of the Crusades as well) -- Massada just happens to be the most famous.
There is therefore little reason to question it as a concept.
Alcyoneus
No "Thirteenth Tribe" is not a good source. It is full of rather wild speculation and opinions made into fact (though it can be a nice basic intro to the subject).
It is currently the favorite of Anti-Jewish Revisionists.
(incidentally - I don't believe he was a noted historian - revisionists just really like using the phrase "noted Jewish historian" - not certain that he was any kind of historian - rather a sensationalist journalist ...but I passed on getting his bibliography - so not sure)
For a basic overview of the problems with revisionism and this particular topic - read the pertinent articles on my "Jewish Warriors" site.
Owen
If the "non-combatants" cooperated - Why would defensive wounds be expected?
Incidentally, the practice was commonly (and I believe in Massada) to have people trained in ritual slaughter do the killing (whether they were soldiers or not).
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
[This message has been edited by Norman (edited 03-28-2001).]
Norman- purely my conjecture; first, people might block reflexively, and second; not all may have wanted to die. Some may have wanted to surrender, not everyone is willing to die for the cause. Those trained to ritual slaughter would have had no advantage, animals usually don't know they're going to die. And besides, we don't know that any of them actually had defensive wounds anyway.
------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"
------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"
Norman;
I'll try to find out who that guy was, I do remember that He was doing a dig at the sight sometime in 98, and claims to have some sort of new evedince. He really wouldn't go into to much depth, something about wanting to publish his finding or something. It was on The Learning Channel in November I think. I let you know if I can find anything.
Chris
I'll try to find out who that guy was, I do remember that He was doing a dig at the sight sometime in 98, and claims to have some sort of new evedince. He really wouldn't go into to much depth, something about wanting to publish his finding or something. It was on The Learning Channel in November I think. I let you know if I can find anything.
Chris
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Norman
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Chris,
Please do look into it.
I'm quite curious.
I was under the impression that the cite was pretty damned well dug up by the seventies.
There's alot of weird political sh!st going on in Israeli archeology (for instance, since 1996 the Waqf has been working their @sses off at destroying any and all archeological evidence of the Jewish Temples).
...and with Massada, you gotta take into consideration that it was used before the rebellion -- and then after the rebellion into the Middle Ages. I know that for a substantial period it was a Greek monastery. Alot of bodies in the original dig were identified as monks.
...and one of the problems in trying to investigate the rebel bodies is that the monks had several centuries of cleaning up the mess.
Conversely, if there were bodies of rebels that remained after several centuries of other occupation, I would posit that its plausible that some bodies may have remained from the Roman garrison that was taken by the rebells.
Owen -
the reason I mention ritual slaughter in this regard is because they immobilise the animal and slit its throat with a specially sharpened knife -- to eliminate as much pain as possible.
If they tried for something similar in this case, reflexive defense injuries should be minimised.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
Please do look into it.
I'm quite curious.
I was under the impression that the cite was pretty damned well dug up by the seventies.
There's alot of weird political sh!st going on in Israeli archeology (for instance, since 1996 the Waqf has been working their @sses off at destroying any and all archeological evidence of the Jewish Temples).
...and with Massada, you gotta take into consideration that it was used before the rebellion -- and then after the rebellion into the Middle Ages. I know that for a substantial period it was a Greek monastery. Alot of bodies in the original dig were identified as monks.
...and one of the problems in trying to investigate the rebel bodies is that the monks had several centuries of cleaning up the mess.
Conversely, if there were bodies of rebels that remained after several centuries of other occupation, I would posit that its plausible that some bodies may have remained from the Roman garrison that was taken by the rebells.
Owen -
the reason I mention ritual slaughter in this regard is because they immobilise the animal and slit its throat with a specially sharpened knife -- to eliminate as much pain as possible.
If they tried for something similar in this case, reflexive defense injuries should be minimised.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)