Leather armor for Vikings?
Moderator: Glen K
Leather armor for Vikings?
What evidence is there for vikings wearing any sort of leather armor?
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Gaston
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There's a reference in one of the sagas (Heimskringla, perhaps) about the gift of some reindeer hide armour (coats, I think) that would turn a sword.
Sorry so vague, but it might start you in the right direction.
Another good place to look would to toward Byzantium. The Byzantines wore lameller and scale, some of it (IIRK) hardened leather, and they employed Vikings in their mercenary forces (Varangian guard, perhaps others).
Sorry so vague, but it might start you in the right direction.
Another good place to look would to toward Byzantium. The Byzantines wore lameller and scale, some of it (IIRK) hardened leather, and they employed Vikings in their mercenary forces (Varangian guard, perhaps others).
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JJ Shred
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According to Regia Anglorium, there has yet to be found any leather armour in graves from this area/time period, so they don't allow it. It seems obvious that it would have been used, and there is evidence of its use on the continent, the logical explaination being it simply disintegrates in the soil. Byzantine lamallar would have been extremely exotic in Scandinavia or the British Isles. I realize that in SCA circles lamallar is accepted as conventional logic, but see if you can come up with one example of archealogical evidence either on the British Isles or the Scandinavian pennisula 780 AD to 1050 AD.
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Wulfgar Ullicsson
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If you search hard enough, you will find references to leather gambesons, "tunics of waxed skin plates", leather "Battle aprons" (??), and the like, scattered throughout Norse Sagas and British Celtic Mythology.
As well, considering that many religions have,historically, created their deities and mythological heroes in mankinds image, and given them human-like qualities, it's not a stretch to imagine that the weapons and armour they attribute to their gods and heroes were in use. i.e. Cuchullain, Thor etc etc etc.
When you factor in leather's ease of use, durability, and lack of cost (historically anyways, as cows were a hell of a lot more plentiful than steel and iron) it's is most likely that leather armour was used.
It all comes back to the "re-creation" vs. "re-enactment" argument. If one makes an educated theory relating to history and another says "this is what we've found, so this all that it could be", then we have two wildly varied opinions as to what is acceptable.
This does not mean that someone should read a saga and see "glittering armour" and think, "Oh!!! Plate!!, The had plate in 800's Norway!!!"
It's risky, but I think an educated hypothesis is valid in the context of the SCA. But you have to be willing to defend it with fact.
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<I><B>"Wulfgar spake, the Wendles' chieftain,
whose might of mind to many was known..."</I></B>
Wulfgar Ullicsson inn Gerpir
As well, considering that many religions have,historically, created their deities and mythological heroes in mankinds image, and given them human-like qualities, it's not a stretch to imagine that the weapons and armour they attribute to their gods and heroes were in use. i.e. Cuchullain, Thor etc etc etc.
When you factor in leather's ease of use, durability, and lack of cost (historically anyways, as cows were a hell of a lot more plentiful than steel and iron) it's is most likely that leather armour was used.
It all comes back to the "re-creation" vs. "re-enactment" argument. If one makes an educated theory relating to history and another says "this is what we've found, so this all that it could be", then we have two wildly varied opinions as to what is acceptable.
This does not mean that someone should read a saga and see "glittering armour" and think, "Oh!!! Plate!!, The had plate in 800's Norway!!!"
It's risky, but I think an educated hypothesis is valid in the context of the SCA. But you have to be willing to defend it with fact.
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<I><B>"Wulfgar spake, the Wendles' chieftain,
whose might of mind to many was known..."</I></B>
Wulfgar Ullicsson inn Gerpir
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Norman
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There are Lamellar finds in Scandinavia.
There may just be no surviving leather lamellar.
However -- I put it to you --
How many helmets from any given time-and-place do we have??
Lamellar was used, and leather lamellars were definitely found elsewhere,
Scandinavians, and more generally Vikings quite strongly traded and interacted with points East (Khazaria, etc.) - the Birka lamellar is actualy quite like lamelar from Tibet.
Therefore, unless you are only recreating specific finds, I would say leather lamellar is a quite likely reconstruction.
It is certainly a far better reconstruction than to rig up some hockey equipment for underneath your shirt.
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Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
There may just be no surviving leather lamellar.
However -- I put it to you --
How many helmets from any given time-and-place do we have??
Lamellar was used, and leather lamellars were definitely found elsewhere,
Scandinavians, and more generally Vikings quite strongly traded and interacted with points East (Khazaria, etc.) - the Birka lamellar is actualy quite like lamelar from Tibet.
Therefore, unless you are only recreating specific finds, I would say leather lamellar is a quite likely reconstruction.
It is certainly a far better reconstruction than to rig up some hockey equipment for underneath your shirt.
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Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
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Lodhur
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This argument drives me crazy. I mean, its my _business_. I make leather armour, & my persona is EARLY EARLY period. Everything is so damned conjectural, it drives me up a wall. Leather just doesn't last in dirt & the sagas are so vague. We have to assume alot, & most people make the assumption that all leather armour was pretty similar to its metal/plate counterparts. I'm beginning to doubt that, however.
What we need is to find that salt mine where those viking leather fetishists hid their armour as the were escaping from Charlemagne's army.
[This message has been edited by Lodhur (edited 03-30-2001).]
What we need is to find that salt mine where those viking leather fetishists hid their armour as the were escaping from Charlemagne's army.
[This message has been edited by Lodhur (edited 03-30-2001).]
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Wulfgar Ullicsson
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That's pretty much what I said....
I really think that a solid background of information used to create a probable outcome will lead to a more satisfying experience than saying "This is what we KNOW, so this must be it."
All SCA vikings would be wearing the Gjermundbu Helm if that were the case, as it is the only "complete" helm ever found on "Viking Soil"
Instead, we draw conclusions (as do the archeologists that publish these findings) that lead to a likely outcome.
It's more fun that way anyways.
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<I><B>"Wulfgar spake, the Wendles' chieftain,
whose might of mind to many was known..."</I></B>
Wulfgar Ullicsson inn Gerpir
I really think that a solid background of information used to create a probable outcome will lead to a more satisfying experience than saying "This is what we KNOW, so this must be it."
All SCA vikings would be wearing the Gjermundbu Helm if that were the case, as it is the only "complete" helm ever found on "Viking Soil"
Instead, we draw conclusions (as do the archeologists that publish these findings) that lead to a likely outcome.
It's more fun that way anyways.
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<I><B>"Wulfgar spake, the Wendles' chieftain,
whose might of mind to many was known..."</I></B>
Wulfgar Ullicsson inn Gerpir
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JJ Shred
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"There are Lamellar finds in Scandinavia.
There may just be no surviving leather lamellar."
Providence for this?
"All SCA vikings would be wearing the Gjermundbu Helm if that were the case, as it is the only "complete" helm ever found on "Viking Soil"
This is true. There are finds of "banded" steel helmets and small pieces of skull caps, but most helmet reproductions are based off iconographic sources. What I'd like to see is archeological evidence.
Location is definitely something to consider when determining whether something is plausable. The English would have had more contact with Rome than Birka. There is a mountain range dividing Sweden and Norway, so all trade was by the sea. How common would these items actually be? In the sagas, how many ships per year actually went to Iceland? In one man's life, how many times would he have interacted with different cultures? What percentage of people actually were traders, or raiders, and how many never left the general areas of their birth?
When you say a 9th C. Viking, who but a chieftain actually would own a steel helmet, much less a chainmail shirt? And, how authentic do you wish to be? The SCA is not limited to a very high level of "anal authenticity" but shouldn't these things be considered?
The Viking Age is fascinating, but limited in the amount of surviving evidence. We need to look past Victorian assumptions and misconceptions, and try to help people develop their personas in the most accurate way they are willing to endeavor to. Too much information is NOT the problem. Too little is.
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Virtus vincit invidiam
"Virtue overcometh envy"
[This message has been edited by Bascot (edited 03-30-2001).]
There may just be no surviving leather lamellar."
Providence for this?
"All SCA vikings would be wearing the Gjermundbu Helm if that were the case, as it is the only "complete" helm ever found on "Viking Soil"
This is true. There are finds of "banded" steel helmets and small pieces of skull caps, but most helmet reproductions are based off iconographic sources. What I'd like to see is archeological evidence.
Location is definitely something to consider when determining whether something is plausable. The English would have had more contact with Rome than Birka. There is a mountain range dividing Sweden and Norway, so all trade was by the sea. How common would these items actually be? In the sagas, how many ships per year actually went to Iceland? In one man's life, how many times would he have interacted with different cultures? What percentage of people actually were traders, or raiders, and how many never left the general areas of their birth?
When you say a 9th C. Viking, who but a chieftain actually would own a steel helmet, much less a chainmail shirt? And, how authentic do you wish to be? The SCA is not limited to a very high level of "anal authenticity" but shouldn't these things be considered?
The Viking Age is fascinating, but limited in the amount of surviving evidence. We need to look past Victorian assumptions and misconceptions, and try to help people develop their personas in the most accurate way they are willing to endeavor to. Too much information is NOT the problem. Too little is.
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Virtus vincit invidiam
"Virtue overcometh envy"
[This message has been edited by Bascot (edited 03-30-2001).]
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JJ Shred
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"There's a reference in one of the sagas (Heimskringla, perhaps) about the gift of some reindeer hide armour (coats, I think) that would turn a sword."
I ordered two farm-raised Norwegian reindeer hides from Moscow Hide & Fur for this purpose. What I received were two of the most beautiful, luxurious fur-coat grade furs, rivaling fox or beaver for softness. The skin was a little thicker than deer skin, about the same as elk. One layer of this would not turn a sharp sword. We have been speculating as to whether the hides were quilted or layered to be used as armour. You can see one of the furs I am holding here:
http://monsieurgeoffrey.faithweb.com/photo.html
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Virtus vincit invidiam
"Virtue overcometh envy"
I ordered two farm-raised Norwegian reindeer hides from Moscow Hide & Fur for this purpose. What I received were two of the most beautiful, luxurious fur-coat grade furs, rivaling fox or beaver for softness. The skin was a little thicker than deer skin, about the same as elk. One layer of this would not turn a sharp sword. We have been speculating as to whether the hides were quilted or layered to be used as armour. You can see one of the furs I am holding here:
http://monsieurgeoffrey.faithweb.com/photo.html
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Virtus vincit invidiam
"Virtue overcometh envy"
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bascot:
<B>
Providence for this?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There were a handful of lamellar plates found in the Swedish trade town of Birka, dated to the 900's. Bengt Thordeman discussed them in one of his books, but I do not own the book, so I can't tell you which. I also recall someone telling me of an Irish stone carving depicting a Norseman in a lamellar coat, but have never laid eyes on a photograph, so it's not solid.
Birka is only one find, but it's enough lamellar evidence for me. As was pointed out, there is only one find to prove that Vikings wore mail, only one find to prove that they wore helmets.
Broðir
<B>
Providence for this?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There were a handful of lamellar plates found in the Swedish trade town of Birka, dated to the 900's. Bengt Thordeman discussed them in one of his books, but I do not own the book, so I can't tell you which. I also recall someone telling me of an Irish stone carving depicting a Norseman in a lamellar coat, but have never laid eyes on a photograph, so it's not solid.
Birka is only one find, but it's enough lamellar evidence for me. As was pointed out, there is only one find to prove that Vikings wore mail, only one find to prove that they wore helmets.
Broðir
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Norman
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Bascot --
What Brodir said --
I had understood that Birka is in Scandinavia.
In any case, Birka is certainly acknowledged as a trading center for Scandinavia.
But maybe I'm wrong --all's I know about Vikings is that a batch of them got to Khazaria and the lands of the Western Slavs and eventually became Russian.
In any case -- the original question was a broad one -- Vikings.
So - I don't know if its really pertinent what the ones in England had available.
In fact, I'm not even certain if it's relevant whether there's a particular find in Scandinavia at all.
Certainly the "Vikings" in Russia wore Lamellar.
More specifically --
If Patchwerk was FROM Norway, but was a Viking raider, the Norwegian finds are not necessarily controlling.
For a real historical example, I believe it was Harald Hardrada had obtained a Russian kit early on in his career, and retained it even after getting to England.
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Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
[This message has been edited by Norman (edited 04-02-2001).]
What Brodir said --
I had understood that Birka is in Scandinavia.
In any case, Birka is certainly acknowledged as a trading center for Scandinavia.
But maybe I'm wrong --all's I know about Vikings is that a batch of them got to Khazaria and the lands of the Western Slavs and eventually became Russian.
In any case -- the original question was a broad one -- Vikings.
So - I don't know if its really pertinent what the ones in England had available.
In fact, I'm not even certain if it's relevant whether there's a particular find in Scandinavia at all.
Certainly the "Vikings" in Russia wore Lamellar.
More specifically --
If Patchwerk was FROM Norway, but was a Viking raider, the Norwegian finds are not necessarily controlling.
For a real historical example, I believe it was Harald Hardrada had obtained a Russian kit early on in his career, and retained it even after getting to England.
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Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
[This message has been edited by Norman (edited 04-02-2001).]
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JJ Shred
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Birka is off the coast of Sweden. I should have prefaced that I was only discussing western Scandinavians, as found in England, Iceland, Ireland & France. Most of these were Danes and Norwegians. Harold Hadratta was the only mention I've found on Vangarian Guards in Western Europe. As far as Eastern Scandinavians, you are right. A Rus or Swedish persona would more likely have access to lamallar, baggy trousers and a lot more fur and amber than a western one. Personnally, I don't know squat about Eastern Europe.
The main point I was trying to make, is through the Viking Age, which is considered as ending in 1066, less armour was used than what is commonly thought. Chain mail was rare in the 8th & 9th C., then within a generation or so was fairly commonplace. Lamallar might have been common in Russia, but wasn't in Western Europe. No leather has been found, and there are few references in the sagas besides the previously mentioned reindeer hide. I'm looking for evidence as well, or I'd have ignored this topic. But you haven't told me anything new. I agree it makes sense to use leather body armour, but I am looking for facts, not opinions, and I'm not going on the Viking World Tour to justify a piece of kit. Most people lived and died within a few miles of their birthplace. I am attempting to re-create the average or typical, rather than the exotic and exceptional.
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Virtus vincit invidiam
"Virtue overcometh envy"
The main point I was trying to make, is through the Viking Age, which is considered as ending in 1066, less armour was used than what is commonly thought. Chain mail was rare in the 8th & 9th C., then within a generation or so was fairly commonplace. Lamallar might have been common in Russia, but wasn't in Western Europe. No leather has been found, and there are few references in the sagas besides the previously mentioned reindeer hide. I'm looking for evidence as well, or I'd have ignored this topic. But you haven't told me anything new. I agree it makes sense to use leather body armour, but I am looking for facts, not opinions, and I'm not going on the Viking World Tour to justify a piece of kit. Most people lived and died within a few miles of their birthplace. I am attempting to re-create the average or typical, rather than the exotic and exceptional.
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Virtus vincit invidiam
"Virtue overcometh envy"
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bascot:
<B>According to Regia Anglorium, there has yet to be found any leather armour in graves from this area/time period, so they don't allow it. It seems obvious that it would have been used...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
** Bascot, if I read my Regia MAA regs correctly (plus conversations with Kim et al.), leather vests are permitted in the interest of safety, though you are right, there is no archaeological provenance for this.
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<><><> <><><> <><><>
http://www.geocities.com/baldurstrand/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/California_Viking_Age
<B>According to Regia Anglorium, there has yet to be found any leather armour in graves from this area/time period, so they don't allow it. It seems obvious that it would have been used...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
** Bascot, if I read my Regia MAA regs correctly (plus conversations with Kim et al.), leather vests are permitted in the interest of safety, though you are right, there is no archaeological provenance for this.
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<><><> <><><> <><><>
http://www.geocities.com/baldurstrand/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/California_Viking_Age
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JJ Shred
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I've been searching for the site on the Birka dig, but I give up. I'm pretty sure the lamellar is iron, not leather. I did find some info on a 6th C. English lamellar, but it too, is iron. There was a find in Syria, at the Dura Europos site of rawhide lamellar. Can anyone actually provide an example of LEATHER lamellar by Vikings?
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Virtus vincit invidiam
"Virtue overcometh envy"
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Virtus vincit invidiam
"Virtue overcometh envy"
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Jake Stallion
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bascot:
<B>I've been searching for the site on the Birka dig, but I give up.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is the adress to Birka. http://www.raa.se/birka/eng/index.htm
<B>I've been searching for the site on the Birka dig, but I give up.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is the adress to Birka. http://www.raa.se/birka/eng/index.htm
So what would the rank and file "western pre-1000 viking wear for SCA combat? A spangen w/ oculars or a vendel, and baggy pants and shirt? Then what to wear for armor? Since it would be on the rare side to wear chain, what would be best to wear under the garb, steel, plastic, leather? Since ideally it would be concealed then I guess it would be ok to wear whatever is permissable.
Next question: In the hypothetical armor as worn convention, if the "unarmored" viking is wearing concealed steel, would that count the same as concealed plastic, ie unarmored because of period?
BEDLAM
Next question: In the hypothetical armor as worn convention, if the "unarmored" viking is wearing concealed steel, would that count the same as concealed plastic, ie unarmored because of period?
BEDLAM
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white mountain armoury
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lamelar pieces were found at a site along hadrians wall, its only one example for lamelar in britton, but its an example none the less.
Lamelar was used in roman auxiliary cav and there is evidence for roman cavalry in britton. I can certainly see a lot of tired lorica finishing up their lives as lamelar lames.
I have no proof but I think leather was a common option for armour in said location and period. We have the bently grange as proof of the use of horn in the dark ages, I believe I have seen references to discovered spangen bands laking panels, leading authorities to believe the panels were likely horn or leather.
I find it unlikely that hardened leather armour would exist in ancient cultures and in medieval and middle ages etc, but not exist in the dark ages
As for helmets I believe there are is evidence for 4 spangens in the general Scandinavian area,the gjermundbu being the most complete, no true spangens in britton
But crested/ridge types are a diff story, you have 5 in britton with 2 possibles and in Scandinavian and surrounding areas there are 30 with another 5 extremely fragmentary possible. Both britton and the Scandinavian areas areas have yielded maille and lamelar plus the splinted defenses from valsgarde, add to this trading with the russ I think further enforces the likelihood of lamelar
Interesting topic, the more i think about it the more there is.
I've read htat the gjermundbu is thought of as the only true Viking helm, and in a way thats true, the early vendal and valsegarde graves date back to as early as roughly 520, making these cultures a sortof proto viking.
as for portraying one in the sca, well i wear close fitting hidden armour under pants and a tunic, all thats visable is either my maille shirt or my lamelar cuirass, and my helmet,a ridge style spang, and unfortunately my demi daunts. i get a little extra protection for my kidneys with a slightly enlarged late roman based belt.
cool topic
Lamelar was used in roman auxiliary cav and there is evidence for roman cavalry in britton. I can certainly see a lot of tired lorica finishing up their lives as lamelar lames.
I have no proof but I think leather was a common option for armour in said location and period. We have the bently grange as proof of the use of horn in the dark ages, I believe I have seen references to discovered spangen bands laking panels, leading authorities to believe the panels were likely horn or leather.
I find it unlikely that hardened leather armour would exist in ancient cultures and in medieval and middle ages etc, but not exist in the dark ages
As for helmets I believe there are is evidence for 4 spangens in the general Scandinavian area,the gjermundbu being the most complete, no true spangens in britton
But crested/ridge types are a diff story, you have 5 in britton with 2 possibles and in Scandinavian and surrounding areas there are 30 with another 5 extremely fragmentary possible. Both britton and the Scandinavian areas areas have yielded maille and lamelar plus the splinted defenses from valsgarde, add to this trading with the russ I think further enforces the likelihood of lamelar
Interesting topic, the more i think about it the more there is.
I've read htat the gjermundbu is thought of as the only true Viking helm, and in a way thats true, the early vendal and valsegarde graves date back to as early as roughly 520, making these cultures a sortof proto viking.
as for portraying one in the sca, well i wear close fitting hidden armour under pants and a tunic, all thats visable is either my maille shirt or my lamelar cuirass, and my helmet,a ridge style spang, and unfortunately my demi daunts. i get a little extra protection for my kidneys with a slightly enlarged late roman based belt.
cool topic
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Fearghus Macildubh
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It's not only a Viking chieftain who would be wearing mail, but the members of his retinue that were primarily fighters i.e. the Huscarls. Now a bondsman or dreng or thegn might not have armour besides a helmet and shield because on the main, they were farmers who fought only occasionly. Even a successful Viking "sea king" might not wear all his armour to battle. On a quick strandhog raid, or a small sea fight, speed of maneuver might call for the armour to be left behind. Mail and iron lammellar are the only sure bet archeologicaly support armour. You could infer leather lammellar, maybe even horn lammellar.
slainte,
fearghus
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"How long will we fight? We will fight until hell freezes
over. Then we fight on the ice."
----------------------------------
The rules are: pillage first, then burn.
Failure to follow the rules will lead to
summary dismissal from the raiding team.
slainte,
fearghus
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"How long will we fight? We will fight until hell freezes
over. Then we fight on the ice."
----------------------------------
The rules are: pillage first, then burn.
Failure to follow the rules will lead to
summary dismissal from the raiding team.
One also has to consider that with lamellar being in use among the Franks, it is unfair to assume it was not also used by the Danes. Franks used lamellar, Hebedy was a trade town on the border of the Frankish Empire and the Danish Kingdom, one can safely assume that Germanic and early-Viking age Danes had at least limited access to this type of armour.
Broðir
Broðir
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Wulfgar Ullicsson
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bedlam:
<B> So what would the rank and file "western pre-1000 viking wear for SCA combat? A spangen w/ oculars or a vendel, and baggy pants and shirt? Then what to wear for armor? Since it would be on the rare side to wear chain, what would be best to wear under the garb, steel, plastic, leather? Since ideally it would be concealed then I guess it would be ok to wear whatever is permissable.
Next question: In the hypothetical armor as worn convention, if the "unarmored" viking is wearing concealed steel, would that count the same as concealed plastic, ie unarmored because of period?
BEDLAM</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That seems very reasonable, most real Vikings would have fought without armor. I haven't seen such a fighting costume yet, though.
<B> So what would the rank and file "western pre-1000 viking wear for SCA combat? A spangen w/ oculars or a vendel, and baggy pants and shirt? Then what to wear for armor? Since it would be on the rare side to wear chain, what would be best to wear under the garb, steel, plastic, leather? Since ideally it would be concealed then I guess it would be ok to wear whatever is permissable.
Next question: In the hypothetical armor as worn convention, if the "unarmored" viking is wearing concealed steel, would that count the same as concealed plastic, ie unarmored because of period?
BEDLAM</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That seems very reasonable, most real Vikings would have fought without armor. I haven't seen such a fighting costume yet, though.
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white mountain armoury
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i can pass armour inspection with out my maille or lamellar, so ultimatly all that would be visable would be my helm and demi gaunts, im not sure how to address the demi gaunts, but you can portray u guy in just cloth, im working on my brittanic personna and when done all that will show is my helmet
AB/WMA
AB/WMA
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Fearghus Macildubh
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The thing to ask yourself is: what sort of fight am i showing up for? If it's just your run of the mill smash and grab, minimal or hidden armour would be good. If it's a knockdown drag out fight like maldon, stamford bridge or any of the battles that st olaf engaged in, you'd probably want to be armoured as best you could afford. what does this mean in an sca context? decide why your personna is showing up and armour apropriately.
Slainte,
Fearghus
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"How long will we fight? We will fight until hell freezes
over. Then we fight on the ice."
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The rules are: pillage first, then burn.
Failure to follow the rules will lead to
summary dismissal from the raiding team.
Slainte,
Fearghus
------------------
"How long will we fight? We will fight until hell freezes
over. Then we fight on the ice."
----------------------------------
The rules are: pillage first, then burn.
Failure to follow the rules will lead to
summary dismissal from the raiding team.
One thing to remember when it come to the Swedish vikings is the extensive contacts whith eastern Europe, Russia and Byzantium. The first archaeological evidence from Sweden that people fought in Byzantium is from 365. Both archaeological and written records shows that quite alot Svear fougt for the East Emperor and later byzantium in the Varangian guard, between 365 and maby as late as 1340!
But where is the armour then? Well, As had been said before, there are almost no armour finds in Sweden before 14th century, but both written and pictorial evidence points that armour where being used. Poor survival in the dirt, reuse of armour (metal was almost always reused) and the fact that no battlefield excavation (exept Visby) has been done, is the explanations.
So I would say that a Swedish Viking (Shieftain or huscarl) was quite eastern influenced. Leather lamellar can have been used, metall ones was defenitly. In archaeology we builds many pictures on "educated guesses".
Gabriel
But where is the armour then? Well, As had been said before, there are almost no armour finds in Sweden before 14th century, but both written and pictorial evidence points that armour where being used. Poor survival in the dirt, reuse of armour (metal was almost always reused) and the fact that no battlefield excavation (exept Visby) has been done, is the explanations.
So I would say that a Swedish Viking (Shieftain or huscarl) was quite eastern influenced. Leather lamellar can have been used, metall ones was defenitly. In archaeology we builds many pictures on "educated guesses".
Gabriel