Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
Moderator: Glen K
- Kristoffer
- Archive Member
- Posts: 1697
- Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Ostersund - Sweden
- Contact:
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
Found out that metal scraping is an actual thing outside the japanese swordsmith world.
This is a bit interesting:
https://youtu.be/4FS2YI3U_cc
Also a surface scraping video from 1940.
https://youtu.be/k4lUmE945js
Regarding the.guys with the sticks, I notice that they strap the armour to their benches and the tool is two handed. There is probably quite some force being applied when using the sticks.
This is a bit interesting:
https://youtu.be/4FS2YI3U_cc
Also a surface scraping video from 1940.
https://youtu.be/k4lUmE945js
Regarding the.guys with the sticks, I notice that they strap the armour to their benches and the tool is two handed. There is probably quite some force being applied when using the sticks.
Kristoffer Metsälä
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
Precision scraping for machine tools is a whole world unto its self.Xtracted wrote:Found out that metal scraping is an actual thing outside the japanese swordsmith world.
This is a bit interesting:
https://youtu.be/4FS2YI3U_cc
Also a surface scraping video from 1940.
https://youtu.be/k4lUmE945js
Yes. It looks like they are really bearing down on the tools. I wish our artists had been more observant about the details of securing the work.Xtracted wrote: Regarding the.guys with the sticks, I notice that they strap the armour to their benches and the tool is two handed. There is probably quite some force being applied when using the sticks.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
- Cet
- Archive Member
- Posts: 2985
- Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2002 1:01 am
- Location: jobstown, nj. usa
- Contact:
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
It's going to be very hard to do what I'm supposed to do tomorow and not pull the band of copper I saved from a flywheel and attatch it to a stick.
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
Is this band of copper suitable to make a "tire" for a wheel? If so.. how big? My wood lathe will only go to just under 12", but I have a left hand thread plate that will let us turn on the unrestricted side of the headstock.
Mac
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
- Cet
- Archive Member
- Posts: 2985
- Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2002 1:01 am
- Location: jobstown, nj. usa
- Contact:
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
"Is this band of copper suitable to make a "tire" for a wheel? If so.. how big? My wood lathe will only go to just under 12", but I have a left hand thread plate that will let us turn on the unrestricted side of the headstock. "
That's exactly what it was- about 18" dia if memory serves ( it was part of an ellliptical machine) Not sure how kind I was removing it from the cast iron wheel as i was thinking of it as scrap at the time. thickness is maybe .1" or so.
That's exactly what it was- about 18" dia if memory serves ( it was part of an ellliptical machine) Not sure how kind I was removing it from the cast iron wheel as i was thinking of it as scrap at the time. thickness is maybe .1" or so.
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
Golly! An 18" iron wheel with a copper tire. That sounds like the sort of thing that can be made into a lap wheel with a minimum of fuss. You say this came out of an elliptical trainer machine? Do you think they all have them? This is very exciting!
Mac
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
Is there no risk that copper particles pollute steel surface causing oxidation?
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
That's an interesting question in light of the trouble I had with copper contamination in my tumbler. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=169445&hilit=mac+bu ... start=1505
I don't think it's likely to be an issue here, since the surface will be subjected to further finishing processes which (presumably) don't involve copper. So, any copper that might get deposited on the surface will almost certainly be removed before there can be any sort of electrolytic trouble.
Mac
I don't think it's likely to be an issue here, since the surface will be subjected to further finishing processes which (presumably) don't involve copper. So, any copper that might get deposited on the surface will almost certainly be removed before there can be any sort of electrolytic trouble.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
-
- Archive Member
- Posts: 2098
- Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2003 2:01 am
- Location: NY
- Contact:
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
About a half hour in the Japanese two handed steel 'plane' appears. This video is, for my money, the best of the one hour 'making of the Japanese sword' videos. I keep thinking I ought to make such a plane.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxwWf-MfZVk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxwWf-MfZVk
-
- Archive Member
- Posts: 13112
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Socorro, New Mexico
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
Technical term for the japanese tool is a "sen"
May I commend to your attention "Lost Country Life" Dorthy Hartley, pages 178-180
which mentions "A deep jar containing grease, and a small bag of sharp sand were taken to the fields for sharpening tools."
and
"Wooden Strickles: these varied in size and shape. Dipped in grease, and then in sand they were used as a whetstone to put a good edge on a scythe or sickle."
May I commend to your attention "Lost Country Life" Dorthy Hartley, pages 178-180
which mentions "A deep jar containing grease, and a small bag of sharp sand were taken to the fields for sharpening tools."
and
"Wooden Strickles: these varied in size and shape. Dipped in grease, and then in sand they were used as a whetstone to put a good edge on a scythe or sickle."
- Jason Grimes
- Archive Member
- Posts: 2387
- Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Fairbanks, AK, USA
- Contact:
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
That's interesting, grease would certainly help with keeping the "sand" on the board longer.Thomas Powers wrote:Technical term for the japanese tool is a "sen"
May I commend to your attention "Lost Country Life" Dorthy Hartley, pages 178-180
which mentions "A deep jar containing grease, and a small bag of sharp sand were taken to the fields for sharpening tools."
and
"Wooden Strickles: these varied in size and shape. Dipped in grease, and then in sand they were used as a whetstone to put a good edge on a scythe or sickle."
Jason
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
Question : we assume that the tool those polishers use is made of wood. But they all look having some bend due the pressure imparted on the working piece. Could they be instead made of several layers of thick leathers?
-
- Archive Member
- Posts: 13112
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Socorro, New Mexico
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
I think the grease helps to keep the abrasive in place until it embeds in the surface of the wood. With emery you could embed it in the surface of soft metals too. I would think that leather would work for final polishes where not much force is needed.
- Jason Grimes
- Archive Member
- Posts: 2387
- Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Fairbanks, AK, USA
- Contact:
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
That makes sense, very much like charging a diamond cutting wheel. In that case, if I'm remembering right, you press diamond dust into a soft cast iron plate and the grains get embedded into the iron. You would want a very hard wood in that case so the grains stay in place?Thomas Powers wrote:I think the grease helps to keep the abrasive in place until it embeds in the surface of the wood. With emery you could embed it in the surface of soft metals too. I would think that leather would work for final polishes where not much force is needed.
Jason
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
Several people cite a "near-mirror polish" on parts of the Madonna della Grazzie armours which were covered by other plates. For example, Toby reproduced photos in the slides for his "An Operator's Guide" lecture, and anything he says about armour is worth taking seriously.
These claims seem to go back to TOMAR p. 265 which cites Mann "The Sanctuary of the Madonna delle Grazzie" Archaeologia 1930. I don't have access, and I think we would want an original copy, not a blurry scan or photocopy (especially if the original is printed on glossy paper). Maybe someone who knows Toby could ask him for the source? I am sure that armourers could 'see' things in the original photos which untrained eyes can't.
A good thread on the finish of the least mucked-around-with bits of original armour is Historical Research -> Original Finish on Armour viewtopic.php?f=4&t=178884&p=2726907 Posts by wcallen and James Arlen Gillaspie here and on the Arms and Armour Forum are good at explaining how armour has been mucked around with in the last 200 years, and why bits under applied fittings or covered by other plates are probably our best chance of seeing something which is not so different from the armour which left the shop. That does not necessarily mean that they were typical, but they are the bits which are least likely to have been roughed up or improved too much.
Jiri Klepac had some comments too back when he was more active online.
These claims seem to go back to TOMAR p. 265 which cites Mann "The Sanctuary of the Madonna delle Grazzie" Archaeologia 1930. I don't have access, and I think we would want an original copy, not a blurry scan or photocopy (especially if the original is printed on glossy paper). Maybe someone who knows Toby could ask him for the source? I am sure that armourers could 'see' things in the original photos which untrained eyes can't.
A good thread on the finish of the least mucked-around-with bits of original armour is Historical Research -> Original Finish on Armour viewtopic.php?f=4&t=178884&p=2726907 Posts by wcallen and James Arlen Gillaspie here and on the Arms and Armour Forum are good at explaining how armour has been mucked around with in the last 200 years, and why bits under applied fittings or covered by other plates are probably our best chance of seeing something which is not so different from the armour which left the shop. That does not necessarily mean that they were typical, but they are the bits which are least likely to have been roughed up or improved too much.
Jiri Klepac had some comments too back when he was more active online.
DIS MANIBUS GUILLELMI GENTIS MCLEANUM FAMILIARITER GALLERON DICTI
VIR OMNIBUS ARTIBUS PERITUS
Check out Age of Datini: European Material Culture 1360-1410
VIR OMNIBUS ARTIBUS PERITUS
Check out Age of Datini: European Material Culture 1360-1410
- Jason Grimes
- Archive Member
- Posts: 2387
- Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Fairbanks, AK, USA
- Contact:
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
Here is one of the images. It's of the armet when they were conserving it and had removed the brow reinforce and under it was original polish.
Jason
- Alex Baird
- Archive Member
- Posts: 16809
- Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:55 pm
- Location: Santa Clarita, CA
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
In the illuminations above, it appears some of the sticks are convex and some concave. Perhaps to conform with inner and outer curves?Jason Grimes wrote:The only thing about using metal I wonder about would be that wouldn't you want some flex with the boards? I could see that you would have stiff sticks for hard grinding and thinner more flexible ones for fine polishing. The thinner ones would more conform to the surface shape than the thicker ones.
No, really, I'm serious. Look at my face.
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
One of the ways to understand the processes that were used is to look at the marks left by those processed. Looking at the surface which James A G posted a while back, I think I can identify individual scratches which begin and end within the area which was once covered by the rivet.
We can see that the scratches are about the same length as the diameter of the hole. If the hole is the usual 1/8" (3mm), then we can assign a similar length to the scratches. This suggests some things about the tool that made them.
The scratches were probably not made by a hand driven device like a file or a polishing stick. The stroke is too short for that.
If the scratches were made with the periphery of a wheel of some sort, then that wheel probably had a yielding surface. A hard surface (like a grind stone or a lap) would only make tangential contact with the work and the resulting scratches would be quite short. A yielding surface (like wood, felt, or leather) would depress against the work to produce a a longer contact patch and thus longer scratches.
Mac
We can see that the scratches are about the same length as the diameter of the hole. If the hole is the usual 1/8" (3mm), then we can assign a similar length to the scratches. This suggests some things about the tool that made them.
The scratches were probably not made by a hand driven device like a file or a polishing stick. The stroke is too short for that.
If the scratches were made with the periphery of a wheel of some sort, then that wheel probably had a yielding surface. A hard surface (like a grind stone or a lap) would only make tangential contact with the work and the resulting scratches would be quite short. A yielding surface (like wood, felt, or leather) would depress against the work to produce a a longer contact patch and thus longer scratches.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
But, to play devil's advocate, those scratches you indicated could be under the longer scratches that cover most of the surface, and be just leftovers of a previous pass, they show up just because deeper than average.
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
That may well be. Indeed I suspect that that is exactly the case with the diagonal scratches on the left.
If that is the case, the the scratches may have been produced by a hand driven abrasive, or they may have been made a wheel whose periphery is softer yet.
In addition, it's very difficult to tell if I am really seeing the beginnings and ends of scratches in the picture. One could make better judgements if the object itself were to hand and suitably magnified.
Mac
If that is the case, the the scratches may have been produced by a hand driven abrasive, or they may have been made a wheel whose periphery is softer yet.
In addition, it's very difficult to tell if I am really seeing the beginnings and ends of scratches in the picture. One could make better judgements if the object itself were to hand and suitably magnified.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
- Jason Grimes
- Archive Member
- Posts: 2387
- Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Fairbanks, AK, USA
- Contact:
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
That could be a possibility for sure. My only counter to that is if you look at the housebook illustrations you can see that the boards that are not being used are very straight.Alex Baird wrote:In the illuminations above, it appears some of the sticks are convex and some concave. Perhaps to conform with inner and outer curves?Jason Grimes wrote:The only thing about using metal I wonder about would be that wouldn't you want some flex with the boards? I could see that you would have stiff sticks for hard grinding and thinner more flexible ones for fine polishing. The thinner ones would more conform to the surface shape than the thicker ones.
It did get me thinking that Mac's idea for using copper (or some other metal) could work. If you attach the metal plate on to the stick with sliding rivets, the board could still flex and the metal should flex with it (if it were thin). The slots wouldn't even need to be very long, just enough to allow the board to flex. The problem with this is that the metal plate would float around as you were polishing. But I don't know how much of a problem it would be, especially if the slots were fairly short?
Jason
- Jason Grimes
- Archive Member
- Posts: 2387
- Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Fairbanks, AK, USA
- Contact:
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
This helmet is pretty late is it not? How much hand polishing would have been done at this time? I always sort of assumed that by the late 15th century most armour was polished by some kind of powered wheel (water, animal, or human)?Mac wrote:That may well be. Indeed I suspect that that is exactly the case with the diagonal scratches on the left.
If that is the case, the the scratches may have been produced by a hand driven abrasive, or they may have been made a wheel whose periphery is softer yet.
In addition, it's very difficult to tell if I am really seeing the beginnings and ends of scratches in the picture. One could make better judgements if the object itself were to hand and suitably magnified.
Mac
Jason
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
That's my impression as well, but I have to admit that our evidence is pretty slim. We see examples of polishing sticks in the famous hausbuch and in one or two other places, and all of these are 15th C. By the time we get to the 16th C, the hausbuch is showing wheels. At this point, we sort of jump ahead to images by Stradanus and Bruegel where wheels are used.Jason Grimes wrote:....I always sort of assumed that by the late 15th century most armour was polished by some kind of powered wheel (water, animal, or human)?
It's tempting to think that wheels replaced hand work around 1500, but I don't think we have enough evidence to prove that.
To make matters, more complex, we have images of sword grinding/sharpening/polishing(?) happening on what are almost certainly natural stone wheels from at least as early as the 14th C
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
- Jason Grimes
- Archive Member
- Posts: 2387
- Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Fairbanks, AK, USA
- Contact:
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
Wasn't there one of a man grinding a knife and two unhappy young men (his sons?) turning the stone with cranks on either side that dates from the 13th C or was that also from the 14th?Mac wrote: To make matters, more complex, we have images of sword grinding/sharpening/polishing(?) happening on what are almost certainly natural stone wheels from at least as early as the 14th C
Mac
There are so many variables to think about on this, maybe what we are seeing is that large equipment like this (wheels of stone or wood) can be very expensive and hard to find room or suitable places to install. As time goes on and the guilds become more organized and have more resources, we see more wheels being used?
Jason
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
This one? It's from the early 14th C. Luttrell Psalter, I think.Jason Grimes wrote:Wasn't there one of a man grinding a knife and two unhappy young men (his sons?) turning the stone with cranks on either side that dates from the 13th C or was that also from the 14th?Mac wrote: To make matters, more complex, we have images of sword grinding/sharpening/polishing(?) happening on what are almost certainly natural stone wheels from at least as early as the 14th C
Mac
Also...
From the 9th C. Utrecht Psalter
and the 12 C. Eadwine Psalter.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
- Jason Grimes
- Archive Member
- Posts: 2387
- Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Fairbanks, AK, USA
- Contact:
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
Yes, that's the one.
The Eadwine Psalter looks to be an almost exact copy of the Utrecht Psalter. What the the guy on the bottom doing? Looks like he is fixing scabbards?
The Eadwine Psalter looks to be an almost exact copy of the Utrecht Psalter. What the the guy on the bottom doing? Looks like he is fixing scabbards?
Jason
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
He's using one of those scrapers like the Japanese smiths are famous for....
...and so, for that matter is at least one of these guys from the Romance of Alexander Bodleian Library
MS. Bodl. 264
I can't tell if these guys are using scrapers or some sort of polishing sticks.
But, check out the "gizmo" that all four of them are using to keep the tools in contact with the work. Also note, that they all have horn tip cups at their work stations. I suppose they are full of oil.
Mac
...and so, for that matter is at least one of these guys from the Romance of Alexander Bodleian Library
MS. Bodl. 264
I can't tell if these guys are using scrapers or some sort of polishing sticks.
But, check out the "gizmo" that all four of them are using to keep the tools in contact with the work. Also note, that they all have horn tip cups at their work stations. I suppose they are full of oil.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
- Jason Grimes
- Archive Member
- Posts: 2387
- Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Fairbanks, AK, USA
- Contact:
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
Ok that is cool! So there are two steps being shown, the first is a rough grind on the wheel, then the blades were scraped to smooth out the grind marks? I don't know how well those scrapers would work for armour? With armour's complex surfaces, etc.
Does anyone know how the Japanese polished their armour?
Does anyone know how the Japanese polished their armour?
Jason
- Kristoffer
- Archive Member
- Posts: 1697
- Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Ostersund - Sweden
- Contact:
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
They usually didn't. They painted it with lacquer mostly.
Kristoffer Metsälä
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
...and when they didn't lacquer it, they they gave it a brown oxide finish. Now, if my memory serves me, we don't see hammer marks under that russet, so they must bring it to a smooth surface before they oxidize it.Xtracted wrote:They usually didn't. They painted it with lacquer mostly.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
Sakakibara Kōzan has a detailed description of the forging and especially the laquering from the customer's perspective, so he may say something about the polishing of armour. My only copy is on paper in another country. Really wish they could sort out the copyright issues and reprint the translation of that book ... or some other similar sources from Japan.
These scrapers should appear in inventories somewhere, maybe under a name which we think we understand.
These scrapers should appear in inventories somewhere, maybe under a name which we think we understand.
DIS MANIBUS GUILLELMI GENTIS MCLEANUM FAMILIARITER GALLERON DICTI
VIR OMNIBUS ARTIBUS PERITUS
Check out Age of Datini: European Material Culture 1360-1410
VIR OMNIBUS ARTIBUS PERITUS
Check out Age of Datini: European Material Culture 1360-1410
- Cet
- Archive Member
- Posts: 2985
- Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2002 1:01 am
- Location: jobstown, nj. usa
- Contact:
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
"Sakakibara Kōzan has a detailed description of the forging and especially the laquering from the customer's perspective, so he may say something about the polishing of armour. My only copy is on paper in another country. Really wish they could sort out the copyright issues and reprint the translation of that book ... or some other similar sources from Japan."
He says that prior to lacquering the plates are either rough from the scraping knife ( SENROKU) or from the coarse whetstone are used on the outer surface to remove the hammer marks.
He says that prior to lacquering the plates are either rough from the scraping knife ( SENROKU) or from the coarse whetstone are used on the outer surface to remove the hammer marks.
- Jason Grimes
- Archive Member
- Posts: 2387
- Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Fairbanks, AK, USA
- Contact:
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
Having a rough surface would probably allow the lacquer to adhere better, but I agree with Mac that the browned surfaces would need to be smoother. Maybe they used finer and finer whetstones?
Jason
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
There's also the shop monkeys doing the work in the Rothschild Canticles from c.1300, although the edge has been trimmed away.Mac wrote:Jason Grimes wrote:Wasn't there one of a man grinding a knife and two unhappy young men (his sons?) turning the stone with cranks on either side that dates from the 13th C or was that also from the 14th?Mac wrote: To make matters, more complex, we have images of sword grinding/sharpening/polishing(?) happening on what are almost certainly natural stone wheels from at least as early as the 14th C
Mac
- Attachments
-
- Beinecke MS404 fo169r (2).jpg (90.55 KiB) Viewed 1717 times
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
Re: Traditional Armor Finishing Processes
The Japanese russet finishes I have seen have a sort of rough texture, which I think they try hard to cultivate. As such, the metal does not need to be mirror like, but only free of hammer marks.Jason Grimes wrote:Having a rough surface would probably allow the lacquer to adhere better, but I agree with Mac that the browned surfaces would need to be smoother. Maybe they used finer and finer whetstones?
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie