The Armour Archive

Well it's armour for your feet, I guess!

I made a pair of turn shoes and finished them last night. I've got some construction photos here:

http://www.forth-armoury.com/photo_gallery/Shoes/shoes.htm



Steve

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Forth Armoury
The Riveted Maille Website!

Nice to see some period footwear out there.

What type of stich did you use, from the looks you did what I did and used a stitching awl and did a lock stitch. Or did you use a running stitch on it?

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--Edric--

Flos est puellarum, quam diligio, et rosa rosarum, quam sepe video.
"My love is a flower among virgins, and a rose among roses"

Damn, Steve... those are really nice... and helpful. I'm in the process of starting shoes for myself, and your pics are quite helpful.



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Gylðir Ullicsson inn Gerpir af Ey-Vist

What weight of leather? Does it get a buckle on the top flap? I think I might just give them a try!

just from the pics, i'd guess between 6 and 8 oz leather...

-+G

Now that I see a finished product, I realize how easy those will be to make. I'm excited.

My one question: I will add a sole of leather and rubber, or a few layers of leather. Would you all suggest that I sew the shoe to a sole of leather and then barge cement this to a harder piece of leather for the walking sole?

Sheep's wool insole for comfort?
Thanks,
Idëval

Re: the sole question- My advice would be to sew on a 'clump' sole - don't glue it on. If you take a blunt stylus and make a deep impression on the face of the sole which will contact the ground, depressing the stitch-line below the surface of the leather, then your stitching won't abrade away as soon as you wear the shoe. Raising the stitching off the ground will protect it, and when the clump sole gives out, it's easier to replace.

(The source who suggested this also advised using an awl or pin-vise and drill-bit which is barely larger than the thread you'll use, so you don't have gaping holes in the bottom of the shoe without thread to 'caulk' them. He also rubbed a little creosote on the thread he used to sew on clump soles, to seal the holes...

Pietro

Here's another sole idea (when it is still inside out). Cut your soles using 14+ oz. leather. Use a little Barge cement to temporarily hold you sole in place. Use an awl or sharp needle and go through the side of your sole, at a 45 degree angle to the inside of your shoe. If you use a double thread method with one on the inside and one on outside, just weave them back an forth. This way you don't have to worry about glue coming loose or wearing out the thread on the bottom of the sole. To hide the thread on the sole you can cut a 1/16" to 1/8" deep line into the soles side prior to attaching it to the upper portion.

Nice job by the way!
Sigeric

how about a pattern for said shoes I have a whole side of that weight leather...I would love to try to make shoes!

Perhaps said pattern could be included in the new leather patterns area?

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Simon de Lacy

RE Patterns: If you go to his site, via the link, there is a pic of the peices pre sewing... all you need to do is print that out, and blow it up appropriately...

Re: soles you should make a pair of pattens.(not patterns) to go under the shoes.
-+G

I am just not sure what gets sewed to what...I was thinking of the same thing though...

Wow! Lots or response on the shoes!

Edric:
"What type of stich did you use, from the looks you did what I did and used a stitching awl and did a lock stitch. Or did you use a running stitch on it?"

I used one of those 4-prong fork-like chisel punches to punch in the holes. Then I did a running stitch but once I made one complete lap I went backwards around again - effectively making it a saddle stich if I understand the saddle stitch correctly. Basically, the thread (waxed linen) works through the holes in a series of figure eights.

"What weight of leather? Does it get a buckle on the top flap?

The Templar rule forbids buckles on your shoes. Actually, ties too! But we figure there must be some way to hold your shoe closed. My shoes have a set of lacings set into the flaps. I'll post finished pictures tonight. I don't know the weight of the leather, it's a piece I picked up at an event. I'd guess it's 1/8" thick or so. 5-8 ounce or so I guess. It was a pain in the but to turn, I can tell you that.

Ideval:
"Would you all suggest that I sew the shoe to a sole of leather and then barge cement this to a harder piece of leather for the walking sole?"

I'm no shoe expert, so I don't really know how to beef up the soles. I've heard of "clump soles" like Pietro speaks of, but I don't know what they are or how they work.

Ares:
"how about a pattern for said shoes I have a whole side of that weight leather...I would love to try to make shoes!"

Well, since I didn't develop the pattern myself, I wouldn't feel right about providing patterns off of mine. Besides, unless your foot is the same size as mine it won't help you anyway. I hope the pictures can steer you in the right direction, though.

Steve

Would someone explain to exactly what a 'clump sole' is? I keep reading about the, but am not finding any pictures or patterns that say 'this is a clump sole'.

DOH! I understand the sizing issue I can't figure out how that funny lookin piece gets on to what!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lodhur:
Would someone explain to exactly what a 'clump sole' is? I keep reading about the, but am not finding any pictures or patterns that say 'this is a clump sole'.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes please do!!! I am very interested.

Brandr

If I understand it correctly, a clump sole is a triangle shaped piece of leather sewn into the seam at the bottom of a shoe. Another sole is then stiched to this leather.

Its purpose is to provide an easily accesable place to sew on/off a sole.

Dear all,

For all you weanted to know about making medieval footwear I cannot recommend highly enough the webpages of I Marc Carlson, Footwear of the Middle Ages. Seek ye here and all will be revealed!

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QUANDO QUIDQUE DEFIT LUSIO EAXANIMUM
When all else fails play DEAD

Another option is to get a copy of Shoes and Pattens. It is currently out of print but you can get a copy through interlibrary loan. The origional publisher is the Museum Of London Press.

The book will give you examples of existing shoes from 1150-1450 and will also give you construction techniques. Check on clump soles as I believe they were a much later addition and appeared on 15th century shoes. The turn shoes you made here look as if they are meant to be 14th century or earlier. The same shoe appears in the book, however, I do not remember the date off the top of my head.

Boydell Press will be reprinting the book this fall. They do have a web page: http://www.boydell.co.uk/



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Phillipe de Pamiers
Midrealm

Nice work!

I am currently working on a pair of low boots with a thicker sole and a welt, I'll make sure to post pictures when they are done.

Ares - if you cut the pieces out of paper and play aroud a little with them I'm sure you will see how it all works out. I was amazed when my shoes starded "coming to life" from the strangely shaped pattern pieces

I also reccomend Marc Carlsons site http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/shoe/SHOEHOME.HTM

His site also tells you what a clump sole is.

Period footwear is cool!

/Jean

[This message has been edited by Jean Casqueur (edited 08-02-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Jean Casqueur (edited 08-02-2001).]

I am moving this over to the Research and Authenticity forum since it is much better suited for this discussion.

thanks

I am curious, how hard was it to construct your patterns?

That was annoying I was in the middle of posting a reply when it told me it was closed! Anyway I found a pattern on the site mentioned above that matches steves very closely, but they are from scandanavia(sp?)
Scoh, "Type 3"
(10th - 11th Centuries)

sorry Ares, but I needed to move it.

hope it wasnt too much of a prob

I have added more pictures of the nearly finished shoes:

http://www.forth-armoury.com/photo_gallery/Shoes/shoes.htm


Again, I didn't make the pattern for the shoe; I had bought a pair of shoes from a fellow who knew how to do it - Sam Haywood. He played with our Templar group for a while. The shoe is supposed to be correct for the 12th century, but I have no idea. It was made without a last.

When my original pair of shoes wore out, I cut one open and used the two leather pieces as a pattern to make another pair.

Steve

couple of pointers:

1. If you use the prong punches, I've found that it's worth your while to take a dremel to them and grind them down so that they don't punch such a wide hole. That way the stitching doesn't tear the leather so quickly.

2. I don't like barge. If you can find it, Master Bond is the glue to use... it sets in about five minutes, as opposed to the 45+ barge takes. This makes a big difference if the pieces you're glueing are curved, ie shoes.

3. When you glue, it helps to have a "shoe anvil"... look at flea markets and antique stores for a shoe shaped piece of steel on a stake. You can use this to mallet the glued pieces together.

4. Never, ever use vegtan leather for soles. Pennsic roads will wear it out in a day. The oil tanned stuff that the Real Leather People sell is pretty bolshy. Crepe sole material is easy to work with, it's a really dense foam, but it wears out in a year. My current experiment is with vibram. There's a shoe supply place in Newcastle that sells 1/8" thick vibram (and a lot of other good stuff, too), and it's pretty indestructable and doesn't really ruin the look of the shoe.

5. I use sock patterns, where you duct tape a sock on your foot, draw your pattern, cut it off, and xfer it to paper. It's got a slow learning curve, but they offer the best fit after you figure it out (by wasting about 10 sq feet).

I'm always open to new ideas and I'm always willing to share what I know about shoes. Contact me at camp of Gaping Maw, corner of Battle and Fosse, whoever is interested. I'm going to be making shoes most of the war, and I'll probably be re-discovering where that shoe shop is early on.

HELMUT

Have you all seen this site on turnshoes?

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisandpeter/shoe/construction.html

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Pietro da San Tebaldo:
Re: the sole question- My advice would be to sew on a 'clump' sole - don't glue it on.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but then it wouldn't be a turnshoe, now would it?

It seems as though I may have been unclear in my first post.
For the sole, my suggestion was to sew a sturdy piece of leather to the bottom of the shoe, then glue to this the actual walking sole of either a harder leather or rubber (I have used big inner-tubes for friends' boots and shoes). Is this what a clump sole is?

I have never experienced such a slow acting Barge cement. Lately, the last project only, I used a container of Weldwood contact cement...works about the same.

The trick with Barge is to always "dry bond." Paint either surface lightly, let it set a few minutes or less (blow on it until tacky), and then press the pieces together. Superior bond. If one used liberal amounts of glue and wet-bonded, the result would be much slower drying. Do not do this.

For leatherworking, I suggest gluing all seams, as they are much easier to punch, keep lined up, and sew when turning the piece on one's lap.

Would Steve's shoe modify to a later period with a pointy toe and decorative treatment?

Idëval


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Idëval
The Huntsman of
I-Nossë Lúmëvanwa
My mind opens wide when I roar

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by schreiber:
<B>couple of pointers:
I use sock patterns, where you duct tape a sock on your foot, draw your pattern, cut it off, and xfer it to paper. It's got a slow learning curve, but they offer the best fit after you figure it out (by wasting about 10 sq feet).</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Helmut, I did this too, but with a stiff insole from a modern shoe inside of the sock.

I know it's important to have shoes that are safe, functional and comfortable. It’s also important to have shoes that are as historically accurate as possible. I recently slipped on a grassy hill wearing my leather-bottomed turnshoe. How did they use these shoes back then? Hobnails weren’t that common. Living in northern climes teaches one to walk safely on ice, perhaps it’s like that. I'd still like to add rubber to the bottom of mine without them looking like clump soles.



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<><><> <><><> <><><>
http://www.geocities.com/baldurstrand/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/California_Viking_Age

Buran: it depends on where and when you're from. The Romans had hobnails, and I think I remember reading that northern people would use hide with the hair on it as a sole. My brother in law has a pair of "modern" repro scandinavian boot type things, and they've got hair on the bottom... he says they work pretty well.

As for me, I got into shoes because it seemed like nobody else was (that would sell me some, anyway), and my actual research has been pretty limited. I go for "neariod" and safe, myself.

HELMUT

Hey Buran! Excellent site! Pretty much this is exactly how my shoe was made. Only I used a different stitch (a saddle stitch) to attach the sole to the upper. Also, my sole and upper were placed good-side-to-good-side instead of "teed" together as they show. Also, mine doesn't have the heel stiffener.

Steve

RE: walking on ice

Last year during the one little bit of wintry weather we get a year in GA, i needed to walk the dog. For the life of me I couldnt find my shoes. So i put on my bowling shoes (with slick leather bottoms). And walked out onto the icy sidewalk. Not a problem at all. Now maybe i was being cautious, or something, but it was actually easier for me to avoid falling in the slick bottomed leather shoes than later when i put my regular shoes on.

Of course i also remeber "ski-ing" with a pair of leather soled pointed toed boots on dew slick grass...

-+G

I don’t know about “heel stiffenersâ€

Hello all,
I thought that this link might be useful to some of you. http://www.seamlyne.com/design/costume/footwear/footwear_index.html

It has some basic ideas in there for pattern making as well as stitching, soles, etc. I found this site by pure luck. Hope you find what you need hidden within its pages.

Enjoy,
Toben