I am so ignorant!

freiman the minstrel · Tue Apr 16, 2002 2:33 pm

I am so incredibly ignorant! I have been in the SCA for many years and I worked Ren Faires before that, and I should knmow how to do this, but I realized that I don't know where to start!

I want to put together a coherant picture in my mind of an early rennaissance unit of crossbowmen.

I would like to learn what a camp of crossbowmen in the rennaissance would look like. I would like to know how it smells. How were the troops fed? How were they paid? How was camp dicipline handled? How long did a man serve in a free company? Could he "retire"?

What kind of pack would a crossbowman wear? What would be in it? Would a crossbowman have a canteen? What would it look like? Did he have a cookpot? would officers and Non coms have the same weapon and armor, though of a finer grade?

How would a soldier get his arms/armor? Did he procure them himself? Did he get issued them. Were crossbow Bolts issued? Could he read? What kind of medical treatment would an injured soldier get? The real question I need to ask is:

Where do I start researching a good impression?

Alexander · Post by **Alexander** » Tue Apr 16, 2002 4:17 pm

Servus!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by freiman the minstrel:
I am so incredibly ignorant<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummmm.....you said it!!!

I'll spare you the pain here and nail you at the next event I see you at!

------------------
Pax Vobiscum,

Herr Alexander

Gwen · Post by **Gwen** » Tue Apr 16, 2002 5:18 pm

You might want to give this a try:

"English Longbowman- 1330/1515"
Osprey Military / Warrior Series
Clive Bartlett, Gerry Embleton
ISBN 1-85532-491-1

It's pretty comprehensive, and includes a fair number of pictures which are helpful in gaining a mental picture of what the text describes.

It's not the end all reference by any means, but I think it's a good place to start sorting things out.

Hope this helps-

Gwen

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 1:48 am

You should get in touch with the Firestryker forum at http://www.wolfeargent.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi . They have tremendous expertise in such things, and you'll probably be able to get someone who knows exactly what you want to find out, or can point you towards the information you need.

------------------
Egfroth

Major Bloodnok, Queen's Forty-Third Deserters (retd.) "Do you know what it's like to be in the thick of a bloody battle, with bullets flying and sabres clashing?"
Ned Seagoon: "No."
Bloodnok: "Pity; I was hoping you could tell me . . ."
see my webpage at www.geocities.com/egfrothos

freiman the minstrel · Wed Apr 17, 2002 2:06 am

Thanks very much. It was profoundly offensive to me when I realized I didn't have any idea how to start researching.

I went to college. I promise. I can read, I know how to use an encyclopedia. I just didn't know what quivvers wer shaped like, or what tents would be in use, or any of that.

I am pretty relaxed when it comes to lazyness in others, but when I do it...

Erik Schmidt · Post by **Erik Schmidt** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 3:17 am

Freiman, you're excused. You are in the SCA after all.

OK, that was my jab at SCA authenticity for the year.

If you want to do good research, it helps if you firstly establish what you want to research. Two important things which you did not mention are, a fairly specific date range and the region you want to emulate. Without first establishing these parameters, you won't be able to build up a very coherent picture.

There are books already published concerning military structures of various periods, regions and troops. I research the 14th c, so I can't help you with specific references.
Once you find one or two books, you can work off the given references to do more specific research. These will often get you back to journal articles, which in turn reference more journal articles. So the more up to date the initial sources are, the more up to date references you will find, and these in turn will reference right back to the older articles. But you probably know all that, sorry if I'm stating the obvious.

Researching the rennaissance should be fairly rewarding given the vast amount of art and museum pieces from the period, so you should be able to get a good idea of clothing and armour from such sources.
For online art, go here;
http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/welcome.html

Happy researching.

Erik

FrauHirsch · Post by **FrauHirsch** » Thu Apr 18, 2002 12:05 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by freiman the minstrel:
I want to put together a coherant picture in my mind of an early rennaissance unit of crossbowmen. Where do I start researching a good impression?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First I recommend that you decide what exact year (or at most a 30 yr span) you wish to portray, what region your unit is from, and where they are currently deployed.

Juliana

freiman the minstrel · Fri Apr 19, 2002 6:27 pm

OK,

I took a while to reply to this because I had to consult Will and Ariel.

How about a Unit of crossbowmen in early summer, 1356?

Tuesday, if that helps.

I know I changed the date. Sorry.

[This message has been edited by freiman the minstrel (edited 04-19-2002).]

[This message has been edited by freiman the minstrel (edited 04-19-2002).]

Erik Schmidt · Post by **Erik Schmidt** » Sat Apr 20, 2002 5:56 am

You still left something out.

Whether it's Tuesday or Wednesday, you still have to decide on a region. Moreover, you have to decide where you are from and where you are serving.
The Milanese where well known for supplying crossbowmen, such as fought with the French against the English, as you may well be aware.

Having moved your date to the earlier 1356, you will have more trouble finding images, as well as examples of weapons. I don't think any extant pieces exist from that early.
At least you won't have to bother with cranks or winches for you bow, just a belthook.

"The Book of the Crossbow" by Ralph Payne-Gallwey is said to be very good, and sells for around US$15-20.
The Osprey book;
Nicolle, David. Italian Militiaman, 1260-1392. (Military series, 25) Oxford, [England]: Osprey Pub., 1999

Use such monographs as a source of references.
You may want to do buy a Basic Italian book and dictionary to teach yourself written Italian, as much of what you will want to know will be written in Italian if you are aiming for Milanese Crossbowmen or similar.

As for food, you will want to ask around for a book which covers pre-new world cooking in the Meditterranean, or specifically Italian, areas. Many of the medieval cookbooks written in English are very general and often skewed to Northern European foods.

A couple of bibliographies to get you started;
http://nimbus.ocis.temple.edu/~rkarras/warbib.htm
http://www.geocities.com/historyoftents/bblgrphy.html
http://www.libreriamilitare.com/cgi-bin/select.cgi?cat=120

Erik

[This message has been edited by Erik Schmidt (edited 04-20-2002).]

freiman the minstrel · Sat Apr 20, 2002 12:44 pm

Thanks Erik.

Now I have more than I know what to do with. I will see about ordering the Osprey book for a start.

I can actually only go one book per paycheck.

I have been investigating crossbows, and it appears that the bows can me made for about ninty to one hundred and twenty dollars per bow, with purchased prods, bow irons, strings and roller Locks. I figure that I can make the stocks and ticklers myself.

Tents appear cheapest out of Karachi. Quality out of central asia seems to be notoriously unreliable, but military issue has been notoriously unreliable for many centuries. I know that the screwups would all be at right angels to the angles to the screwups I would want, but cost is actually the major factor here.

And about the date change, I switched to that particular date because I thought that sources would be more readily available.

Italy was what I was thinking, but I hesitated to say anything. It sounds to much like too many implausible personna stories I have heard about. Milan I could see just fine, But I like Florence more as a personal preference.

OK, throw out that particular date. Let think instead about campaigning with Freundberg in Italy, about 1527.

and I must keep repeating the mantra "this isn't another project, Just a little research. This isn't another project, just a little research...."

Erik Schmidt · Post by **Erik Schmidt** » Sat Apr 20, 2002 6:58 pm

You're right, it's not a project, but it certainly isn't just a little research. If you want to do it right, it's more like a series of research projects.

It sounds less daunting if you break it up into something like;
Food and cooking
Camp style and organisation
Costume
Armour
Weapons
Military organisation, payment and dicipline
Historic context(settings and campaigns)

It sounds like you are doing this as a group. Break up the research and book purchase between you.

You may want to do a little reading before settling on a date and place as you seem to be very unsure. The later you go, the more material there will be to research from.
The later crossbows had steel laths(bows) which are easier to reproduce than the wooden ones, but the later bows need spanning mechanisms such as the windlass or later the crankquin to look authenic.
The amount of armour also increases with time and becomes more complex to make, although you can dispence with the maille.

Happy researching.

freiman the minstrel · Mon Apr 22, 2002 2:51 pm

No, I am not doing this as a group. I am trying to figure out if it's worth it to pitch it to the group.

The first question they are gonna ask is "how much would it cost?"

the second question is "How much work would it be?"

And the third question is "why should we spend that money and that time?"

If I don't have good answers to all three I can kiss it off.

I can make the idea come alive, I can make them smell whatever we had to burn because thousands of men at arms had scoured the land. I can make them feel the exhilaration that men felt when they realized that another battle had come and gone and they were still alive. I can make them understand that the only people they have been able to count on since coming south across the alps are the men around them, and I can make them glad to be alive, young and the victors in a battle that had all too few survivors.

But I can;t do that if I cant see it in my own head.

But the fact is, I am not sure I want to sell anybody on anything, and I wont until I do some basic research.

Which is why I am so pissed off about having to ask for help on the research!