Question about transitional armour and persona

Constancius · Post by **Constancius** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 1:09 am

I'm thinking aobut changing my persona to fit my armour. My current persona is Anglo-Saxon, but my armour is leaning twords transitional. I have splinted legs, leather vambraces, leather pauldrons with gorget attached, leather gut belt, and a padded gambeson.
What I'm thinking of is an Englishman from around the 1100-1300 time frame that was accepted by the Moores. The reason for the little twist is I like the Middle Eastern garb.
I generally fight with a strapped round shield and am looking for a super cheap slot-back spangenhelm.
My question is whether or not this will work. I'm trying to go with a mix of armour and cultire that I like. For the most part my armour works for me. I like the Middle Eastern garb. I'm not looking to get flamed, but if that's what happens then so be it.

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Constancius of Lincolnshire

animis corporibusque

Aelric · Post by **Aelric** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 3:36 am

I think wacky persona stories to make it ok to mix and match is pretty silly. If I were you I'd just try to dress the part of the english gentleman when you want to and dress the part of the moor when you want to. Dont mix and match and dont make up unlikely storys to justify it. Just do what you want to do and do it right.

Just my opinion,

Aelric

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 4:49 am

After thinking about it, i can only see a couple ways that you could make the persona fit. If you were base your persona around the idea that you were a trader, it's remotely possible that you could have come into contact with the Moors in Spain or Northern Africa, but keep in mind this was the time of the Crusades, and that Christian Europeans and Muslim Moors/Saracens didn't have a whole lot of use for each other, though there was some trade still being carried on. You could also base your persona on that of a Crusader, but it would be even more unlikely that such a person would be on good terms with Moors or anyone else of Muslim persuasion.

Anradan MacEwan · Post by **Anradan MacEwan** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 10:19 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Aelric:
I think wacky persona stories to make it ok to mix and match is pretty silly. If I were you I'd just try to dress the part of the english gentleman when you want to and dress the part of the moor when you want to. Dont mix and match and dont make up unlikely storys to justify it. Just do what you want to do and do it right.

Just my opinion,

Aelric<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree.

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I grow strong again!
Warcry of the clan Ewan
Ewan of Loch Fynne

Craig Krohn · Post by **Craig Krohn** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 1:48 pm

I think of it this way:

When I go to gun shows there are sometimes vendors that sell Nazi paraphenelia. They may or may not be nazis themselves, but I can't help think that they ARE Nazis. Yes, WWII German uniforms and medals were cool looking....but if I wore them people would think I'm a racist bastard.

Put yourself back in the time of the crusades...You see a "Christian" wearing Moorish attire....

Food for thought.

Bob H · Post by **Bob H** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 6:23 pm

Constancius,

Since you posted this here on Research and Authencity I'm imagining that you don't want just a pat-on-the-back "that'd look nice" reply.

1100-1300 is not the transitional armour period, although there are similar armours in the period you mention. Generally speaking, I think of "transitional" armour as the period where maille gradually is augmented or replaced by plate in most of Western Europe, and can be roughly defined as "the 14th century" or 1301-1400. That's a very broad statement, and you will find other opinions and exceptions.

I have read that it wasn't uncommon in the 1100-1300 period you chose for European knights or groups of them to "hire out" to Saracen local leaders or cities, but I've never seen a reference of them using other than the clothing, arms and armour common to their own origin. Please bear in mind that I'm just a hobbiest with an interest, and by no means a historian.

More tersely, I wouldn't do it. There's a standing joke in some SCA communities about "Abu MacGregor, Sheik of the Heather", and you're just about to put yourself in his shoes.

If it's what you want, then I'd just do it and not worry about a foundation in history. If you represent it as a fun personal choice and don't present it as historical, then you have nothing to defend.

Bob

Constancius · Post by **Constancius** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 10:24 pm

Well, I like the idea of a merchant or trader. To me that sounds like the most feasable possibility.
Bob Hurley, what time frame would my armour fit in the best, if it's not from the time frame that I am thinking about? (Please forgive the ignorance of the qusetion.) What would I need to do to my armour to have it fit the time frame that I'm wanting to fit?

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Constancius of Lincolnshire

animis corporibusque

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Mon Apr 29, 2002 1:28 am

Merchants and traders wpuld not have been fighting in lists and in wars in general.

Sorry but your reeaaaalllly stretching it already with thw large time frame and mixed and matched garb/ armour.

The trasitional period, i think is late 13th- the late 14th centuries.

Which means coat hardies and surcoats and the like.

David · Post by **David** » Mon Apr 29, 2002 10:45 am

I'm in a household which does 1594 England. We have a member who has a fantastic 13th century helm with a suit of chain.

So does he play a Crusader abducted by space aliens and taken to Elizabeth's court? Of course not, nor does he just hang the armour on hin wall. He just plays Crusader on the list field and Renaissance man off.

Now, wasn't that easy?

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Mon Apr 29, 2002 12:59 pm

During the later crusades, there were Europeans, living in the Middle east who were on good terms with the locals.
I'm pretty sure this included Knights (I"m thinking of a drawing of a Christian playing chess with a Muslim).
Do a little research on the phenomenon and see if you can find where the balances in sharing culture were struck.

Another option you may not have thought of --
Italians in the Golden Horde. There was heavy trade, several Italian "colonies", definitely some Knights involved.
This would put you in the Crimean region.
Again, the right thing to do would be to research and see where the cultural balances were in fact struck.

I think both situations would put you in the 13-14th century.

For a note on a probably Italain armour from the Crimea, take a look here:
http://www.geocities.com/kaganate/tana.html

...IMHO in both cases, you'd be far better off with an Italian than with an Englishman.

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Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
E-mail: kaganate(at)yahoo.com

Gaston de Clermont · Post by **Gaston de Clermont** » Mon Apr 29, 2002 2:18 pm

There were certainly crusaders who integrated in various ways with Middle Eastern culture. Hospitaler doctors interacted with their Muslim colegues, and learn their technique. Templars began to go against the customs of their birth places and grow beards like their Muslim neighbors. They learned Arabic. Many of them spent most of their lives in the Holy Land, so they didn't have a lot of choice. Some may have adopted some of the local armour choices, but that's something I can't document right now.

There are accounts of Burgundian soldiers fighting in Muslim dominated and Turkish armies after the battle of Nicopolis in 1396. A few that got left behind or captured after their force was defeated decided that eastern Europe was more fruitful ground for a merenary than France and just stayed. What their armour looked like would mostly be speculation, but some hybrid of late 14th century European and late 14th century Turkish is possible.
More information is available here: http://www.war-art.com/nicopolis_1396.htm and I'd really recommend David Nicolle's book on the subject.

Have you thought of Sicily? It was conquered by almost everyone, so maybe it has something that fits your eclectic interests.

Ideally if you're re-enacting, or re-creating anything, you should look at what that "re" refers to. Look at an original example first, and copy that. A thousand years of culture is probably richer than your imagination, and it's cool stuff to explore.
Gaston de Clermont

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Tue Apr 30, 2002 12:10 am

Now that would work GdC.
He'd only have to change the nationality, from English to Italian.

We may have a winner!

Mercator · Post by **Mercator** » Sat May 04, 2002 12:01 pm

In Spain, from the eleventh century to the fifteenth century, there were many Moorish kingdoms that could and did hire Christian mercenaries. In fact, the last defenders of the insanely Muslim Almoravids in Morocco were Christian mercenaries from northern Spain.

Go to http://libro.uca.edu for a wealth of books on-line about medieval Spain.

Good hunting,
Jehane

Bob H · Post by **Bob H** » Sat May 04, 2002 8:05 pm

Constancius,

I think the "Italian" idea is a very good one. Quite a bit of the armour from that region c1300-1350 or so looks as if it might be at least partly cuirbollei (over full maille, as a reinforce). David Nicolle's "Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era, 1050-1350 - Western Europe and the Crusader States" should be full of solid, historic ideas you can use. Osprey's Warrior Series has "Knight of Outremer" (also by Nicolle) that would be very helpful for an 1187-1344 portrayal of a European soldier in the Middle East, although I'd use it as a guide to more research and not a source in and of itself. (I first typed that as the "Meddle East", must have been thinking about US policy)

Constancius · Post by **Constancius** » Sun May 05, 2002 12:46 am

I like several of the ideas posted above, thank you, especially the mercinary idea. The only problem is I don't have any maille, nor the money to buy or make it. Any ideas about the time periond that the armour that I do have would cover? I think it's bordering on transitional, if so very early transitional. Any comments are very helpfull and very appreciated.

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Constancius of Lincolnshire

animis corporibusque

Gaston de Clermont · Post by **Gaston de Clermont** » Sun May 05, 2002 5:46 pm

These might be tough to track down, but should be well worth it in your search for Middle Eastern armour that might mesh with transitional European gear:
The Khwaju Kirmani manuscript which was illustrated in Baghdad in 1396.
Codex of Alexander the Great, Library of St. Giorgio dei Greci, Venice.
Fatih Albums, Topkapi Library, Ms. Haz, 2153, f.138v, Istanbul
Images from all three appear in David Nicolle's "Nicopolis 1396". They indicate lamelar, and char'inas were used in Muslim armies. Maile appears relatively rarely, and isn't used in the huge volume that contemporary Christian armours employ, so it might be a more affordable style for you. The few helms shown are hemispherical, with a chain avantail. I could see some spangenhelms resembling that.
Gaston de Clermont

Jacob · Post by **Jacob** » Sun May 05, 2002 6:11 pm

The "transitional" period is the transition between primarily maille to primarily plate armour. To be in the transition means you probably have both. What most people in the SCA do is the transition between nothing and plate, so they wear just the basic 14th c plate. Even if you just wear a maille coif or aventail, it'll have some of both elements. Why are you looking for an 'anglo saxon type' helm if you want a transitional persona?

Personally, I much perfer obviously realistic personas that dont require a story of excuses to justify all of thier interests/equipment. I'd make a 14th century fighter persona for the field, and a middle eastern persona for off the field if I wanted both.

Joe Skeesick · Post by **Joe Skeesick** » Sun May 05, 2002 6:23 pm

Or.....

You could always do what I do... Be the equivalent of an SCA Sybil. I have 2 manifestations of the same persona. I have a western version and an eastern version. Of course I don't get too much into persona play. I like to have a pretty solid idea of the when and the where and stick with one manifestation at a time. When I fight in Eastern gear I dress in kaftan and pants... when I fight western I dress in hosen, coathardie and houpland.

This obviously causes a bit of a bite in the pocket book but its the price you pay for not being able to decide.

You also tend not to have either one manifestation fleshed out with all the details that you might like, at least that's how it ends up working with me....It does beat the hell out of the "My French mother was raped by a Tibetan yak herdsman after the Viking ship she was imprisoned on sank off the coast of South America" type personas that are just nauseating.

J