European Round Rivet, Round Cross Section Maille

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Wed May 29, 2002 9:00 pm

In another thread, the link for Herman Munich Auction is given. In there is an interesting maille haulberk:

[img]http://www.hermann-historica.com/hist/42auction/img/12517_a.jpg[/img]

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Virtus vincit invidiam
"Virtue overcometh envy"

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Wed May 29, 2002 9:03 pm

A close-up of the maille reveals round rivets, rather than wedge-shaped:

[img]http://www.hermann-historica.com/hist/42auction/img/12517_b.jpg[/img]

The text is:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
A German coat of mail 16th century
Wide, hip length, frontal slit opening with unequal arm lengths. Heavy iron chain mail "a grain d'orge" (barleycorn) of closely meshed riveted rings with nearly round (becoming smaller on the arms) cross sections. Two riveted frontal clasps. A brasswork ring each under the "heart" and at the rear neckline. Attached collection number. Length 70 cm, weight 7300 g. Except for a few defects at the ends of the arms and some small holes at the back, a chain mail shirt in excellent condition.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Wed May 29, 2002 9:09 pm

Many times I've read how inauthentic Indian maille is since it is round wire, rather than flattened. And rivets were "always" wedges rather than round nails. This example seems to contradict this line of thought.

Also, the difference in sleeve sizes - damage, or perhaps worn by a horseman with heavy bridle arm re-enforces making it unnecessary?

What about the significance of the brass rings?

What about the buckles, purpose? Means of attach?

Comments?

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Wed May 29, 2002 9:17 pm

Hi Bascot,

It is my understanding that Medieval European mail nearly always uses wedge rivets, and round ones come in sporadicaly through the Rennaisance - possibly largely through Ottoman influence in Centeral Europe.

As to the unequal sleevel length, there is hardly any harness not showing signs of having been tampered with or altered over the course of it's working life - or even long past it. A random brass ring in the mix could simply be a repair than an initial design. Many haubergorns have buckle and strap arrangements for closure.

If you want the best answer, I'd either ask Erik Schmidt on his FS forum, or on Swordforum, as I don't think he hangs out here anymore, and either he or Simon Metcalf would be the people to give you the scholarly response on the subject.

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Bob R.

sasa · Post by **sasa** » Thu May 30, 2002 12:54 am

I can tell you what happened with short sleeve: part of it was probably used in XIX century to "restore" some helmet needing an aventail.

Brodir · Post by **Brodir** » Thu May 30, 2002 2:31 am

The rings in the closeup picture look flat to me. Not washer-flat, but not wire-round like the International Steelcrafts stuff either.

There is a picture in Tim Newark's 'Celtic Warriors' of a patch of maille with round rivets and round cross-section wire. It is labelled as 14th century, but he doesn't give a location or museum source for the maille or the pic, so it could be from India to Ireland for all I know.

[This message has been edited by Brodir (edited 05-30-2002).]

Liebaart · Post by **Liebaart** » Thu May 30, 2002 6:13 am

I think the picture clearly shows flattened rings. Maybe not completely flat, but defenitely not round.

Also, those links can easily be made with wedge shape rivets. What we can see on the picture is the side of the links that shows the peened rivet side. Depending on what technique the mailer used, these rivets are not necessarily round rivets. Only the back side of these links can tell us for sure.

Joris

[This message has been edited by Liebaart (edited 05-30-2002).]

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Thu May 30, 2002 6:44 am

As was mentioned - they could easily be wedge shaped rivets.

Just to complicate this further - I have a shirt that I am sure is late and eastern (the rings are very round in section and the overall form just screams eastern) - but it has wedge rivets. They happen to look a lot like these on the piened side. I am sure that they are wedge rivets because some of the rings have torn and you can see the form of the holes.

It really feels to me that the 'rule' is a good general one to follow, but it is not absolute (as few things are in this world).

That was actually a kind of nice shirt. As I remember it did not go all that high - someone more into mail than I should have picked it up.

Wade

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Thu May 30, 2002 5:43 pm

I think they look flattened too, but the text says:

chain mail "a grain d'orge" (barleycorn) of closely meshed riveted rings with nearly round (becoming smaller on the arms) cross sections.

I am assuming the writer was examining the maille and had a 3 dimensional view that we are denied from 2 photos. Of course, he may have written it having no real contact with the shirt, making guesses from a few notes given him.

naynix · Post by **naynix** » Fri May 31, 2002 2:01 pm

i dont know how much this will help but it gives lots of info on mail
http://www.the-viking-expericence.co.uk/authenticity/chainmail/

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Fri May 31, 2002 4:37 pm

I, too, believe from the picture that this maill is of flattened, mostly D section. There are 2 rings immediately to the right of the buckle that are edge-on to the screen that support this.

Further, I also believe this shirt utilizes wedge rivets. The right-most ring to the right of the buckle is standing edge-on to the screen, and we can see the rivet point protruding to the right but no such protrusion on the left side of the ring. True the ring is canted a bit to the left hiding the actual rivet back (and any possible small protrustion) but there is certainly nothing like the rivet heads plainly visible on the "head" side.

All in all, this looks like distinctly European maille to me.

However, it should be recalled that while there are published accounts (Burgess, others) which reinforce the idea that "wedge" rivets are "European" and "round" rivets are "Eastern", there are exceptions on both sides of the fence. I have examined a coif of obvious eastern style by tailoring that was made of decidedly European-like rings and rivets.

Further, round wire is not a hallmark of inauthenticity. Round wire, and wire of many different cross sections for that matter, was used for maille. Burgess hints that round-sectioned maille is later-period maille (16th century or later) but in fact I've seen and heard of examples of round-sectioned maille from earlier time periods as well.

The most jarring problem with most of the Indian maille available today is the way the overlap region is formed. It is obvious that they flatten the ring ends first, and then overlap them. This makes for a ragged "step-up" in the overlap region, like this:

[img]http://www.forth-armoury.com/Product_Catalog/competition/rivet.gif[/img]
[img]http://www.forth-armoury.com/Product_Catalog/competition/competition2.jpg[/img]

I have never seen maille done this way. All authentic maille that I have ever seen has had the ring ends overlapped first and then the ring, or at least the overlap region, is flattened. This has the effect of crushing the ring ends into one another such that the finished ring is smooth with no step-up:

Steve

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Forth Armoury
Highly authentic, affordable riveted maille.

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Fri May 31, 2002 5:53 pm

I think you've hit the rivet, er - nail on the head, Steve. Any speculation on the significence of the brass rivets?

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Fri May 31, 2002 7:04 pm

Bascot,

I weave brass rings into the shoulders of my hauberks to mark the points for my ailettes. I have no idea wht one might point at the heart and back of the neck though.